Chych Norris Discussion

MIGs Dog

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Need some positive vibes around here. All of this negativity is blocking my Qi.

Jakob Chychrun...legitimate Norris candidate or what? Leads is goals, but pt total is not among the top. Also, does +/- matter? What about fancy stats?

Also funny that Ghost is still top 10 in goals.

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SniperHF

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What about fancy stats?

I don't think we're at the point where fancy stats mean much of anything for awards voting yet.

He'll deserve some votes and get some, but I think without higher point totals he's not really in the running.

Also, does +/- matter?


In terms of awards voting I'd say significant minus matters and plus doesn't. That's stupid but seems like reality. People freakout on big minus numbers (which -2 isn't of course)
 

The Feckless Puck

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Jakob Chychrun...legitimate Norris candidate or what? Leads is goals, but pt total is not among the top. Also, does +/- matter? What about fancy stats?

On any other team - any other team - he'd be in the conversation, at least. But as we saw with OEL, goals scored isn't enough to be a Norris candidate in the minds of the establishment.
 

hbk

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Need some positive vibes around here. All of this negativity is blocking my Qi.

Jakob Chychrun...legitimate Norris candidate or what? Leads is goals, but pt total is not among the top. Also, does +/- matter? What about fancy stats?

Also funny that Ghost is still top 10 in goals.

View attachment 426847
You act like the media outside of AZ actually watch the Coyotes play. Does he deserve a spot on the ballot and some votes in top 5/10. Absolutely. Without question. What will happen? Top 15-20 placement in votes.
 

Jamieh

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On any other team - any other team - he'd be in the conversation, at least. But as we saw with OEL, goals scored isn't enough to be a Norris candidate in the minds of the establishment.
He would need at minimum to make the playoffs. There are half a dozen players having better offensive seasons while also playing much better defensively. Chick's time might come in regards to the Norris but I would highly doubt he even enters the conversation this year. And it would not matter what team he is on unless you think Barrie is in the running???
 

SniperHF

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You act like the media outside of AZ actually watch the Coyotes play. Does he deserve a spot on the ballot and some votes in top 5/10. Absolutely. Without question. What will happen? Top 15-20 placement in votes.

One or both of Mike Smith and Sean Burke have a Vezina if they did what they did for another team.
 

AZviaNJ

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Need some positive vibes around here. All of this negativity is blocking my Qi.

Jakob Chychrun...legitimate Norris candidate or what? Leads is goals, but pt total is not among the top. Also, does +/- matter? What about fancy stats?

Also funny that Ghost is still top 10 in goals.

View attachment 426847
In any “hockey market” Chych would be a top 5 Norris candidate this year.
 
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Grimes

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Am I remembering this correctly or am I off?

I think near the end of the 2015 season Chychrun and AM were the clear top two for the upcoming 2016 draft. Before the seasons ended I believe Chychrun was seen as the top prospect, until Matthews really started putting it together during the prospect tourneys and how his U18 season ended. Then going into the 2016 season it was seen as the top two being AM and then Chychrun until his injury. By WJC the two Finns took the world by storm and Chychrun has missed crucial spotlight games, making him fall more. By the time he came back he was overthinking and overdoing everything and fell even further out of favor during the top prospect game. Is that correct? Or was he always viewed as a top 10ish prospect?
 

hbk

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Am I remembering this correctly or am I off?

I think near the end of the 2015 season Chychrun and AM were the clear top two for the upcoming 2016 draft. Before the seasons ended I believe Chychrun was seen as the top prospect, until Matthews really started putting it together during the prospect tourneys and how his U18 season ended. Then going into the 2016 season it was seen as the top two being AM and then Chychrun until his injury. By WJC the two Finns took the world by storm and Chychrun has missed crucial spotlight games, making him fall more. By the time he came back he was overthinking and overdoing everything and fell even further out of favor during the top prospect game. Is that correct? Or was he always viewed as a top 10ish prospect?
You are pretty much correct. He had a terrible U18’s in front of the GM’s which meant he was the guy who fell on draft day.
 
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Canis Latrans

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It was over a season ago at this point, but I remember seeing some counting stats on stick checks by defensemen for breaking up plays (I think it was Sportlogiq). He was atop that list then, so I imagine he's still up there this season. So his defensive game definitely has strong points that are measurable, just that it's unlikely any one is going to weigh defensive play in any way with something that isn't more visceral.

It's easy to judge offensive stats, but you have to watch with a discerning eye to measure defensive play or know the deepest corners of the internet where defensive stats are recorded and never publicized. This is just a count of times it happens too. We don't even know how to weigh the value of a stick check breaking up a play vs playing the body. Guys might be equally effective, yet one knocks the puck off with finesse while the other uses force. How do you know who is better defensively? Do you count it as a defensive play when the offensive chooses to dump it in ahead of the play because he knew he wasn't getting past the guy? I doubt that's measured by any one but the most behind-the-scenes team analysts, so to assume the award voters ever consider such things is balderdash.

Furthermore, with what we know they consider, he's getting unfairly penalized by teammates who can't convert rebounds he creates or put up screens well enough to amplify his shots. I'm sure a number of those other "top" candidates are racking up points by just starting plays that other players who are more capable can finish.

The silver-lining to this might be that without the media fanfare, our better players can be kept for less dollars when it comes to contract negotiations. I know Chychrun is signed to a longer deal already, but in the case of others, management can point to how they don't have votes for such and such awards and try and keep dollar amounts down due to that. Fox may be great in NY, but by getting hyped up the wazoo, his contract cost is only going to go up, making it better for the player's take home, but possibly worse overall for the team in the future when they have less cap to spend when they reach competitor tier because of the media's narrative pushing.
 

Jakey53

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It was over a season ago at this point, but I remember seeing some counting stats on stick checks by defensemen for breaking up plays (I think it was Sportlogiq). He was atop that list then, so I imagine he's still up there this season. So his defensive game definitely has strong points that are measurable, just that it's unlikely any one is going to weigh defensive play in any way with something that isn't more visceral.

It's easy to judge offensive stats, but you have to watch with a discerning eye to measure defensive play or know the deepest corners of the internet where defensive stats are recorded and never publicized. This is just a count of times it happens too. We don't even know how to weigh the value of a stick check breaking up a play vs playing the body. Guys might be equally effective, yet one knocks the puck off with finesse while the other uses force. How do you know who is better defensively? Do you count it as a defensive play when the offensive chooses to dump it in ahead of the play because he knew he wasn't getting past the guy? I doubt that's measured by any one but the most behind-the-scenes team analysts, so to assume the award voters ever consider such things is balderdash.

Furthermore, with what we know they consider, he's getting unfairly penalized by teammates who can't convert rebounds he creates or put up screens well enough to amplify his shots. I'm sure a number of those other "top" candidates are racking up points by just starting plays that other players who are more capable can finish.

The silver-lining to this might be that without the media fanfare, our better players can be kept for less dollars when it comes to contract negotiations. I know Chychrun is signed to a longer deal already, but in the case of others, management can point to how they don't have votes for such and such awards and try and keep dollar amounts down due to that. Fox may be great in NY, but by getting hyped up the wazoo, his contract cost is only going to go up, making it better for the player's take home, but possibly worse overall for the team in the future when they have less cap to spend when they reach competitor tier because of the media's narrative pushing.
Chick is having a great year and there is no denying that. He has played above expectations by a measurable amount, and I don't think one person expected this kind of year from him. I wish just one of the forwards would do the same instead of disappearing for long stages of the season. I just hope that Chick does not get hurt, as I feel next year other teams will be playing him much more physical, but for this year, he deserves all the praise he is getting.
 

Grimes

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Chick is having a great year and there is no denying that. He has played above expectations by a measurable amount, and I don't think one person expected this kind of year from him. I wish just one of the forwards would do the same instead of disappearing for long stages of the season. I just hope that Chick does not get hurt, as I feel next year other teams will be playing him much more physical, but for this year, he deserves all the praise he is getting.

Hopefully we need up the blue line a bit to help mitigate this. Adam Larsson or Oleksiak would be a good start. I meaner bottom 9 would help too. Crouse and Larsson fit this need (to an extent) and I don't mind carrying one of Hunt or Hayden as the 13th forward but we gotta replace Fischer and Brassard with more piss and vinegar.
 
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Sm00chy

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Chychrun’s development has been the brightest part of this season. While one #1D in OEL slowly fades out another one arrives. Crucial for this team moving forward.

Although he has been fantastic so far I don’t think he is worthy of the Norris. Discussion? Sure... but he isn’t there yet.
 

Name Nameless

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Chychrun’s development has been the brightest part of this season. While one #1D in OEL slowly fades out another one arrives. Crucial for this team moving forward.

Although he has been fantastic so far I don’t think he is worthy of the Norris. Discussion? Sure... but he isn’t there yet.

"Had me in the first part."
 

Grimes

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Chychrun’s development has been the brightest part of this season. While one #1D in OEL slowly fades out another one arrives. Crucial for this team moving forward.

Although he has been fantastic so far I don’t think he is worthy of the Norris. Discussion? Sure... but he isn’t there yet.

How many defensemen would you put ahead of him?
Fox
Josi
Doughtey
Theodore (maybe)
Nurse (is he really a top guy or more of a point producer?)
Carlson
Ekblad
McAvoy (took a dip this year)
Seth Jones
Spurgeon?
Weber or Petry?

I'm sure I'm missing some no brainers but looking at this list I feel like he is at least a top 15 defenseman in the league with his play this year. He will need to be able to replicate it to cement himself as one but a top 15 player in a position should at least have some sort of conversation about the Norris award. He won't win it, I don't have unreasonable expectations but it would be nice to see him get some nods for this very deserving season.
 

Jamieh

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How many defensemen would you put ahead of him?
Fox
Josi
Doughtey
Theodore (maybe)
Nurse (is he really a top guy or more of a point producer?)
Carlson
Ekblad
McAvoy (took a dip this year)
Seth Jones
Spurgeon?
Weber or Petry?

I'm sure I'm missing some no brainers but looking at this list I feel like he is at least a top 15 defenseman in the league with his play this year. He will need to be able to replicate it to cement himself as one but a top 15 player in a position should at least have some sort of conversation about the Norris award. He won't win it, I don't have unreasonable expectations but it would be nice to see him get some nods for this very deserving season.
Haha you left out Hedman!!!!
 

Jamieh

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How many defensemen would you put ahead of him?
Fox
Josi
Doughtey
Theodore (maybe)
Nurse (is he really a top guy or more of a point producer?)
Carlson
Ekblad
McAvoy (took a dip this year)
Seth Jones
Spurgeon?
Weber or Petry?

I'm sure I'm missing some no brainers but looking at this list I feel like he is at least a top 15 defenseman in the league with his play this year. He will need to be able to replicate it to cement himself as one but a top 15 player in a position should at least have some sort of conversation about the Norris award. He won't win it, I don't have unreasonable expectations but it would be nice to see him get some nods for this very deserving season.
Makar, Letang, and Hamilton are in the range as well.
 

Sm00chy

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Sep 29, 2017
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How many defensemen would you put ahead of him?
Fox
Josi
Doughtey
Theodore (maybe)
Nurse (is he really a top guy or more of a point producer?)
Carlson
Ekblad
McAvoy (took a dip this year)
Seth Jones
Spurgeon?
Weber or Petry?

I'm sure I'm missing some no brainers but looking at this list I feel like he is at least a top 15 defenseman in the league with his play this year. He will need to be able to replicate it to cement himself as one but a top 15 player in a position should at least have some sort of conversation about the Norris award. He won't win it, I don't have unreasonable expectations but it would be nice to see him get some nods for this very deserving season.
Just off the top of my head I would probably put Fox, Makar and Ekblad ahead of him. Obviously Ekblad being injured most likely means he is out of the running. But right now Fox and Makar I would put above Chychrun
 

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