Player Discussion Christian Jaros
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Tuna99
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You can't pick and choose the games/plays that someone may get hit/hurt though so limiting minutes can't prevent injuries.
Also Chabot is what, 23? He is not at risk of being stunted by having too much ice time. I am actually shocked this is an issue for anyone on the board.
He is learning to handle big minutes like all Elite D and in a throw away season his mistakes from fatigue or trying to do too much don't matter at all - it's all good and all just learning and experience.
The Sens and Chabot will both be better for all his playing time this season.
Limiting minutes can’t eliminate injuries but it certainly does reduce the risk of injury. Ultimately being on the ice longer simply exposes you to more collisions and to more random unfortunate accidents.
It’s the same in other sports for instance the NBA where load management and strategic rest has become a major issue for stars like Kawhi Leonard to (1) avoid injury and (2) ensure peak performance during playoffs.
In football a running back who had to carry a massive workload in college will face questions about usage (is there tread left on the tires) even if he managed to avoid major injury. (Yes I know the comparison isn’t perfect given that running backs end most plays with one or several collisions).
In baseball teams have specific targets and in some cases caps for innings they want their pitching prospects to pitch in a season mainly to avoid injury and to gradually develop their capacity to handle the larger inning load.
Heck, it’s the same reason your car insurance can he higher if your commute to work is longer. More time spent on the road=higher risk of accident.
I’m shocked someone is arguing the contrary.
The argument that he’s young and can handle it is old school and isn’t aligned with recent developments in professional sports.
He’s leading the NHL in TOI at 25:58 mins/game. My suggestion that he be capped at ~25 minutes would still ensure he would be «learning to handle big minutes like all Elite D ». 25 minutes a game would keep him firmly in the top 10 in TOI/GP. I’m just saying cut out the 30+ min games that expose him to unnecessary risk and fatigue in a must win approach which is misaligned with the current direction of our team.
Next season we should have a couple guys who will share the burden.
Branstrom and Wolanin (I’d he’s picking up where he left off) should play real top 4 minutes...
Jaros is not ready yet in my opinion...
Branstrom and Wolanin (I’d he’s picking up where he left off) should play real top 4 minutes...
Jaros is not ready yet in my opinion...
Nothing you say here sways me in the least. Your comment on me being out of touch with modern sports rings hollow as you dont offer any proof whatsoever. The other sports you mention don't correlate to hockey in any way either and you are picking extreme examples to support your narrative.
Of course more time on ice provides more opportunities to get injured - nobody can argue against that.
Worrying about a player getting injured is what is nonsensical.
They play a contact sport with sticks and razors - risk of injury is implied before you step on the ice.
Chabot getting more minutes is beneficial to his development in a season where the inevitable mistakes that occur have no negative impact.
That's surprising because this:
Seems to be quite a different point of view than this:
I picked examples off the top of my head, I'm not trying to cherrypick. There just happens to be examples in every other big 4 sport. If you choose to ignore them for whatever reason, fine. I don't think there's much I could do to convince you.
It's the reason the NHL'ers may not participate in the olympics despite obvious brand and sport development advantages.
Risk of injury is inherent to any sport, this isn't limited to those that have sticks and blades.
I respect your opinion and disagree.
You should take a moment to ask yourself though, if more playing more minutes is so simply and directly related to development then why are other young defensemen not playing as much as Chabot?
Individual defensemen have logged 30+ minute games 27 times this season. 10 of those are Chabot. In fact, Chabot has logged 6 of the 10 highest TOI games this season.
Klefbom is tied for second in 30+ minute games with 3.
Rielly and Josi are the only other defensemen with more than a single 30+ minute games (two each).
No defenseman 24 and under has logged a 30+ minute game, and only Pionk (24 yo) has logged a game in the top 50 TOI performances of the season (50th).
Meanwhile, other young defensemen like Heiskanen, McAvoy, Chychrun, Werenski, Theodore, Hughes, Bear, and Hronek haven't logged any 30+ minute games.
Clearly some of these teams are higher in the standings and have better defensive depth, but you would think other teams would be taking advantage of this player development method if it were so simple.
I'm going to cut this short if you are going to play around and twist things.
Playing more minutes obviously allows for more chances to get injured. That said it does not mean in any way that the player will get injured.
Just like you couldn't prevent the play that injures someone occurring on the very first shift they take.
The 2 points are mutually exclusive and if you can't even see that there really is no point in carrying this on.
Again all other examples you show have nothing to do with Chabots situation. Obviously most of those teams have far more depth or the players are younger and not ready for this minutes, etc...
You cant prevent injuries by trying to shelter a player, simple as that and end of story.
As far as development we will just have to disagree as I don't see any downside and only upside for him getting lots of minutes which I have already explained so not going to repeat myself.
Playing more minutes obviously allows for more chances to get injured. That said it does not mean in any way that the player will get injured.
Just like you couldn't prevent the play that injures someone occurring on the very first shift they take.
The 2 points are mutually exclusive and if you can't even see that there really is no point in carrying this on.
Again all other examples you show have nothing to do with Chabots situation. Obviously most of those teams have far more depth or the players are younger and not ready for this minutes, etc...
You cant prevent injuries by trying to shelter a player, simple as that and end of story.
As far as development we will just have to disagree as I don't see any downside and only upside for him getting lots of minutes which I have already explained so not going to repeat myself.
To be clear, yes I obviously agree that cutting down from 30+ minutes per game to ~25 minutes per game won’t prevent all injuries. Obviously there’s always a risk at any quantity of TOI. Read my posts again, I’m always referring to additional risk of injury relating to a bump in ice time. I don’t suggest it’s a certainty that a bump in ice time will lead to injury.
tardigrade81
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I don't think that it is reasonable to list a bunch of other young, high profile D and simply state they aren't getting as much TOI. They may never get the same TOI. it's one thing for a 22 minute guy to play 27, its another thing for him to play 27 every night.
We said earlier that Chabot is playing 25:58 a night. Quite coincidentally Karlsson averaged 25:58 over 9 seasons in Ottawa. Did he get injured from playing that much? Would Cooke have stomped on him if he only played say 22 minutes a night? Would that puck have not hit him in the ankle?
Certainly there's an argument that more ice = more opportunity to get hurt.
But your not making any credible argument that playing 25:58 a night is somehow hindering Chabot's future.
Aucoin played 3 seasons for NYI averaging over 28 minutes a night
Neidermayer played 4 seasons at over 26 a night for Anaheim
Pronger played 9 seasons in St Louis averaging over 29 a night and another 3 with Anaheim averaging over 26
Chara had a 4 year stretch in Boston over 27
And it was a lot harder hockey in those days.
Sensmileletsgo
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Come on JD. Suggesting that I'm arguing that Chabot playing 25:58 a night will lead to injury or hinder his future is nothing more than a strawman argument and you know it. In fact, not only do you know that this is a strawman argument, but I've specifically responded to one of your posts explaining this already:
In fact, my first post in this thread, which you quoted to begin this sidebar makes it pretty clear that I have no problem with Chabot playing 25 minutes a night.
Indeed, I specifically stated in this thread that I'm perfectly fine with Chabot being top 10 in the league in TOI this season. My concern, once again, is that he shouldn't be playing these marathon 30+ minute games in a pointless season.
Heck, I even say cap him at ~25 minutes, which clearly allows for slightly higher than 25 mins in any given game.
Moreover, I have absolutely no problem with Niedermayer, Chara, Karlsson, Aucoin, Pronger or Chabot playing heavy minutes when their team is competing. As I've already stated:
Be honest now, were you surprised that Chabot accounts for more than 30% of all 30+ minute games by anyone in the NHL this season? Were you surprised that he has 6 of the 10 highest usage games this season?
I was expecting him to be ahead when I looked up those stats but even with that expectation I was surprised.
Knowing those stats, I have to ask you again:
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No i wasn't surprised with those stats at all. I watch a lot of hockey so i saw most of it happen.
Chabot's ice time is an average TOI as was the TOI of the other players i mentioned. And i only looked up a couple of guys that i knew were big time ice eaters. I could go on but i think you get the point that the average is sustainable and not uncommon. The key is we are talking an average. Lots of games at 23 and 24 have to go into that number if there are games at 30+.
You kind of can't be ok with an average of 25:58 but cap ice time at 26. For every 24 minute game you need a 28 minute
TOI stats are an average. Seems you want an artificial per game cap. I was kind of surprised that the broadcast people made such a big deal of his ice time. You had to know this was coming years ago when he played something like 48 minutes against the Russians in the WJC
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Sensmileletsgo
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I’m sure if Boucher had Ron Hainsey he would of loved the guy just as much as DJ and would of given him just as much ice time.
That’s impressive. I was personally surprised that out of 30 other teams in the NHL having each played more than 60 games (over 1800 chances) it only happened 17 times that a player not named Chabot played more 30 minutes.
I guess you must have the NHL package to keep track of all that.
I get averages. I was pretty clear that my suggested cap was flexible.
Like I said, I’m fine with him being top 10 in TOI this season. Being top 10 in TOI for reference would put him above 24:35 but below 25:58 (26:03 after last night).
What I’m saying, again, is that I don’t think he should be playing 30+ minute games in this throwaway season. It’s perfectly feasible to be a high TOI player without having 30+ min games.
Among the top 10 in TOI/g Letang (2nd), Jones (6th), Provorov (8th), Carlson (9th) and Suter (10th) all haven’t broken 30 this season.
Those young guys I cited earlier (Werenski, Heiskanen, McAvoy, Chychrun, Hronek, Theodore, Hughes, and Bear)
are all top 60 in ATOI/G among defensemen and haven’t broken 30 mins in a game. What I’m suggesting isn’t that difficult to achieve.
I don’t seem to want that, this is expressly what I’m saying. I don’t know what points you’re trying to gain by calling the cap « artificial » teams have TOI objectives/plans for players and manage TOI accordingly all the time. Troy Mann said he has been doing it with Wolanin in Belleville.
Playing 48 minutes in an important game against the Russians is fine. Playing 30+ minutes post deadline, when we’re 3rd last, in a season where we’re hoping for a high lottery pick seems pointless to me.
I'm sorry. I re-read what i wrote and i was not very clear in that i worded something in an odd way.
I didn't watch all of that ice time happen. A better description is i pay a lot of attention to hockey. I watch it. I watch the highlight shows. I listen to 1200 a lot. I listen to pre and post game shows driving to and from games. I've heard it talked about on 1200. I read a lot. And i have an Athletic subscription so i get to read more than the usual post media stuff. I wasn't aware of the specific stat, but your question was whether i was surprised by it and the answer is still no, i wasn't. I'm a hockey junkie with a good memory. No, what you quoted did not surprise me
Some of those young guys you mentioned may never play 30 minutes a game in their entire career short of extended OT in a playoff game
Athletes are all different physical specimens. There is the odd guy that comes along that seems, for whatever physical reason, able to handle that kind of ice time. There are lots of guys that can give you 24 a night but short of an emergency can't and shouldn't give you 30.
I understand your point of view, i just disagree with it. Chabot has a unique ability among elite athletes and he's getting ice relative to his ability.
Smith said this about him today in the context of a Chabot ice time discussion in the Citizen
“He’s boxing out better, he’s defending better, he’s being harder on guys,” he said. “That’s going to allow him, in my opinion, to be the best defenceman in the world at some point.”
TheDebater
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Funny how Boucher loved Jaros, Lajoie, and White ... and DJ does not.
One walked away with $28.5 and the rest will struggle to make $1+.
DJ’s legacy, he hurried development and glossed over developmental holes chasing a few inflated stat lines.
If White didn’t have his contract he’d be in a Jaros position fighting for NHL playing time with Chaplik.
DJ quickly removed that “Boucher crap” from his lineup... the best he could anyway. MD knew what was going on.
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Micklebot
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Lajoie hasn't been the same since his hernia. His game was all about his smooth skating and head, once he lost a step his lack of strength got exposed and he started doubting in his ability to make plays so every decision took twice as long.
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Na.. there is a reason he was a 5th round pick. His 17-18 season in Belleville was bland. Boucher and the fans fell for some opportunistic early points. He may have since struggled with an injury, but he was never as good as the fans or the coach thought. See Jaros and White too. That season was our worst player developmental season of all time.
Micklebot
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Sure, there's a reason Stone was a 6th round pick too, but players progress. Lajoie's skating was absolutely night and day before and after his hernia injury/surgery. Smith not liking Lajoie while Boucher did isn't really an apples to apples comparison as the player was not at all the same regardless of whether you think he was good enough before the injury.
LudwigVonKarlsson
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Good stuff. Always liked Jaros and feel like he could be an excellent 3rd pairing guy who could play top 4 if needed.
Alf Silfversson
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Agreed. And I'm still hoping that Lajoie can be a smooth skating, two-way (mostly D) defenseman. IF he comes back FULLY healed and back to 100% from his injury then I could definitely see an NHL career for him.
As for Jaros, I find it interesting that he's getting $250,000 in the AHL. If we hadn't got Brown and Gudbranson I'd say this is a good sign that he has the inside track for a spot with the big club. Now I don't know what to think. I like the signing and I'd like to see Jaros make the team. He's mobile, he hits and he still has room to grow, IMO.
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