Value of: Chris Tierney or Mikkel Boedker at the draft

Jame

Registered User
Sep 4, 2002
52,673
9,037
Florida
I don't play those petty games. If you do, have at it. I really wouldn't care. lol

Yea, I'm the type that owns up to being wrong.

No matter how Boedker is traded in this situation, if he is the one moved, I would be right. Your original point was to try and malign his value to be a cap dump. I gave you one instance where that may be true and many other instances where it wouldn't be. I will be right no matter how it plays out. lol

And I definitely don't move the goal posts...

But cool... you're player trade evaluation is "Boedker has the trade value of anything from a few mid round picks to a 22 minute 50 point defensemen.... with evaluations that wide ranging, why even say anything?

How is it that I maligned his trade value, when you admitted that is within the range of his trade value?
 

Jame

Registered User
Sep 4, 2002
52,673
9,037
Florida
Comparing offensive production, especially at 5V5, between defensemen is not the way to go when considering that most of it is just based on teammates and random variance. Paul Martin was near the top-20 in 5V5 points amongst defensemen last year, and Justin Braun/Marc-Edouard Vlasic were up near the top this year. If you’re comparing two defensemen like Brent Burns and Erik Karlsson, who truly do drive play and create a lot of scoring chances at 5V5, and you have the metrics to defend that their offensive production at 5V5 is sustainable, then go for it. But in the case of McCabe scoring 14 points in 77 games, and Joakim Ryan scoring 12 points in 62 games...wait, what? Did you actually decide to bring up their scoring rates? :laugh:

Ryan played with Brent Burns, those are hardly baby minutes at all. You can’t use ZS% and QOC CF% to determine the difficulty of minutes of a player you clearly never watch.

yea I did....
Joakim Ryan produced his .19 pts per game in "sheltered baby" offensive minutes... on a cup contender, with Brent Burns as his partner
While McCabe produced his 0.18 pts per game playing a top 4 role... on a bottom feeder, with Zach Bogosian as his partner
 

Pinkfloyd

Registered User
Oct 29, 2006
70,238
13,611
Folsom
Yea, I'm the type that owns up to being wrong.



And I definitely don't move the goal posts...

But cool... you're player trade evaluation is "Boedker has the trade value of anything from a few mid round picks to a 22 minute 50 point defensemen.... with evaluations that wide ranging, why even say anything?

How is it that I maligned his trade value, when you admitted that is within the range of his trade value?

Except you aren't that type and you do move goal posts quite frequently. The reason to say something in this context was because you kept framing everything involving Boedker as a cap dump. Everyone being honest here knows that saying something like that carries negative connotations with it as if the player in question is useless or couldn't be traded for something else. I stated those things as options the team would have regarding Boedker if they so choose as it likely is available to them without making Boedker a cap dump. When you isolate his value into just draft picks and present it like he couldn't get anything else or be a part of any other deal as you have done, that's how you would malign it but you already know that you were doing such a thing so I don't even know why you'd bother to ask something like that. You're just being a phony here.
 

Pinkfloyd

Registered User
Oct 29, 2006
70,238
13,611
Folsom
yea I did....
Joakim Ryan produced his .19 pts per game in "sheltered baby" offensive minutes... on a cup contender
While McCabe produced his 0.18 pts per game playing a top 4 role... on a bottom feeder....

Ryan's minutes were predominantly along side Brent Burns. That's a top four role. Just sayin'.
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
33,360
25,417
Fremont, CA
yea I did....
Joakim Ryan produced his .19 pts per game in "sheltered baby" offensive minutes... on a cup contender
While McCabe produced his 0.18 pts per game playing a top 4 role... on a bottom feeder....

Yeah, I think it’s time for me to get out while I’m not too far deep into this discussion...

Ryan and McCabe were both 4th on their team in EVTOI/GP in their rookie year though
 

Jame

Registered User
Sep 4, 2002
52,673
9,037
Florida
Yeah, I think it’s time for me to get out while I’m not too far deep into this discussion...

Ryan and McCabe were both 4th on their team in EVTOI/GP in their rookie year though

Yea, I don't want to go any deeper in to de-valuing the importance of where, with who, and against who those minutes are played.
 

jMoneyBrah

Registered User
Jan 10, 2013
1,008
1,257
South Bay
Except you aren't that type and you do move goal posts quite frequently. The reason to say something in this context was because you kept framing everything involving Boedker as a cap dump. Everyone being honest here knows that saying something like that carries negative connotations with it as if the player in question is useless or couldn't be traded for something else. I stated those things as options the team would have regarding Boedker if they so choose as it likely is available to them without making Boedker a cap dump. When you isolate his value into just draft picks and present it like he couldn't get anything else or be a part of any other deal as you have done, that's how you would malign it but you already know that you were doing such a thing so I don't even know why you'd bother to ask something like that. You're just being a phony here.

Not that anyone is going to change their agenda over my thoughts on semantics, but I was just thinking that “cap dump” does not accurately reflect Boedker in the context of this discussion (or really any trade discussion).

It would be more accurate to call Boedker a “cap casualty” rather than a “cap dump”.

I think the team was pleased with his production last season, particular the second half of the season and playoff performance where he produced - and even if he wasn’t putting up point he was impacting games with his speed and threatening offensively regularly. All things being equal the Sharks would be happy to have him throughout the duration of his contract, and would only be looking to move him (or/and other players they like) in the unlikely scenario that they could facilitate/make room for clear upgrades to the roster (Tavares, Kovy, Karlsson, etc...)

Regardless of either label, Boedker (or any other player the Sharks may consider moving to make room) might have reduced value if there aren’t more than a few teams interested, but Boedker doesn’t all the sudden have negative value because some internet person calls him a “cap dump”. He’s has a track record of production, everyone knows what type of player he is and where he can contribute and what his weaknesses are.
 

Jame

Registered User
Sep 4, 2002
52,673
9,037
Florida
Except you aren't that type and you do move goal posts quite frequently. The reason to say something in this context was because you kept framing everything involving Boedker as a cap dump.

I framed Boedker in a trade for picks and cap space......

If people were countering with proposals for equal value D.... that makes perfect sense too...

What doesn't make any sense at all, is a team trading a 22 minute 50 point defensemen for a 35 point winger who has been called out his entire career for effort.... oh, because that 50 point D had a bad game 7 no less.

That's my only argument against Boedker's trade value.... that it's not a top pair defensemen.


Everyone being honest here knows that saying something like that carries negative connotations with it as if the player in question is useless or couldn't be traded for something else.

Well.... that's just stupid. Everyone should know that cap space is hard to come by... we have numerous examples of teams paying an arm and a leg to create it. Having a useful player, who can return future assets, and create cap space.... isn't an insult to the player... it's a recognition of the cap world we live in.

If SJ wants to make significant roster improvements... cap space will be needed. Sure... they can re-sign Hertl/Tierney/Thornton and be fine.... or they could try to improve upon the team that lost in the 2nd round.


I stated those things as options the team would have regarding Boedker if they so choose as it likely is available to them without making Boedker a cap dump. When you isolate his value into just draft picks and present it like he couldn't get anything else or be a part of any other deal as you have done, that's how you would malign it but you already know that you were doing such a thing so I don't even know why you'd bother to ask something like that. You're just being a phony here.

Sorry... I didn't realize you were so sensitive to trade proposals.
 

Pinkfloyd

Registered User
Oct 29, 2006
70,238
13,611
Folsom
I framed Boedker in a trade for picks and cap space......

If people were countering with proposals for equal value D.... that makes perfect sense too...

What doesn't make any sense at all, is a team trading a 22 minute 50 point defensemen for a 35 point winger who has been called out his entire career for effort.... oh, because that 50 point D had a bad game 7 no less.

That's my only argument against Boedker's trade value.... that it's not a top pair defensemen.




Well.... that's just stupid. Everyone should know that cap space is hard to come by... we have numerous examples of teams paying an arm and a leg to create it. Having a useful player, who can return future assets, and create cap space.... isn't an insult to the player... it's a recognition of the cap world we live in.

If SJ wants to make significant roster improvements... cap space will be needed. Sure... they can re-sign Hertl/Tierney/Thornton and be fine.... or they could try to improve upon the team that lost in the 2nd round.




Sorry... I didn't realize you were so sensitive to trade proposals.

I never said Boedker's trade value was a top pair defenseman so you've successfully destroyed a straw man you created. We also see numerous examples of teams being able to move useful players without having to pay anything to create it. Boedker will be one of those players if that's the road DW wants to go down. I'm not sensitive to trade proposals. I simply called out your bs for what it was. And your response I'm sure will be to spout more and more bs because you've yet to do anything but that and let everyone know your ignorance especially of the Sharks. lol
 

Jame

Registered User
Sep 4, 2002
52,673
9,037
Florida
I never said Boedker's trade value was a top pair defenseman so you've successfully destroyed a straw man you created.

Sorry, I lost track of which Sharks fan made that silly claim.

We also see numerous examples of teams being able to move useful players without having to pay anything to create it.

Yea. SJ isn't paying anything in a Player for Draft Picks and Cap Space trade.


I simply called out your bs for what it was. And your response I'm sure will be to spout more and more bs because you've yet to do anything but that and let everyone know your ignorance especially of the Sharks. lol

I'll let your fellow fans speak for me :

I think Boedker to Arizona for #74OV is pretty realistic. I really doubt we see him playing for the Sharks next year.

I offered a 3rd AND 4th..... but I guess that was BS :rolleys:
 

CoachWithNoTeam

Registered User
Jul 1, 2006
1,534
819
San Diego
Realistically, an upgrade on Demelo at RD, but that would mean also moving one of Demelo/Heed.

What the fans probably want is more picks and prospects as well. We have almost no defensive prospects apart from Jeremy Roy who has had like three season ending knee injuries already, and Ferraro who actually looks pretty good.

I think there would be interest in Columbus for a player like Tierney, as others have echoed in this thread. While our RD depth chart is essentially Jones and Savard, I think anyone outside of Werenski and Jones could be moved (while others have said Savard can’t be moved because of this lack of RD depth).

Assuming Cole is extended I think the one of following players could be moved from the D group for an upgrade at forward:
Murray, Nutivaara, Savard, Carlsson, Gavrikov. I believe the first 3 are top 4 capable right now. Gavrikov has one more year in KHL but certainly has that upside. He was expected to play in Columbus last season before he signed a two year deal in KHL (stated he wanted to be in the Olympics). Carlsson was 29th overall, and hasn’t looked out of place at the NHL level, but he was drafted at something like 6’4 175 and spent last year mostly in the AHL, but is expected to be an integral part of the team moving forward.

There are others lower on the depth chart or in the system that could be mentioned but if we are talking about people that could play top 4 roles within the next year, I think CBJ have at least 5 options that could work.

If the Jackets re-sign Cole as expected, and Gavrikov comes over as expected, the season after next, we could have 8-9 more than capable defensemen, which is simply a luxury when we are lacking experienced center depth.

19-20 season:
Werenski-Jones
Murray-Nutivaara
Cole-Savard
Carlsson-Gavrikov

Of course I have no idea how highly some of these players are valued around the league, especially relative to Tierney. But I think there is a deal to be made somewhere.
 

Pinkfloyd

Registered User
Oct 29, 2006
70,238
13,611
Folsom
Sorry, I lost track of which Sharks fan made that silly claim.



Yea. SJ isn't paying anything in a Player for Draft Picks and Cap Space trade.




I'll let your fellow fans speak for me :



I offered a 3rd AND 4th..... but I guess that was BS :rolleys:

Nobody made that claim. The fellow fan speaking for you is not the context in which this discussion is about and you know that but keep going with your bs.
 

jMoneyBrah

Registered User
Jan 10, 2013
1,008
1,257
South Bay
I'd have to guess that if they were looking for a smallish offensive D, they'd just play Joachim Ryan and keep Tierney.

JOAKIM Ryan is already being played, and pretty much a lock to be on Burns’ left side next season. However, he is not counted on to provide much, if anything, in the offensive zone. So I don’t think calling him and offensive D is accurate at all. Your theory that Ryan could/should have any impact on moving or keeping Tierney around seems I’ll formed.

The whole premise of moving Tierney/Boedker is that the sharks will have at least one top 9 forward to spare and are looking to make a bit of cap space and stock up on picks, young players - perhaps a slightly younger more unproven player (relative to the outgoing sharks player) on an ELC - or prospects with a better than decent shot of makeing an impact in the NHL in a few years.

So even if Ryan was as you say he is, promoting a player internally to keep Tierney around does nothing for this discussion.
 

Juxtaposer

Outro: Divina Comedia
Dec 21, 2009
47,387
15,721
Bay Area
yea I did....
Joakim Ryan produced his .19 pts per game in "sheltered baby" offensive minutes... on a cup contender, with Brent Burns as his partner
While McCabe produced his 0.18 pts per game playing a top 4 role... on a bottom feeder, with Zach Bogosian as his partner

How on earth can you possibly call what Ryan did “baby sheltered minutes”?? He babysat fricking Brent Burns. Do you know how hard a job that is? You can’t do jack shit offensively because you’re constantly waiting for an odd-man rush against. Ryan made so many excellent defensive plays and Burns’ numbers were miles better when he was playing with Ryan than when he played with Martin, Dillon, DeMelo, or whoever else. Playing with Burns is not easy. Also, zone-starts are a terrible stat.
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
33,360
25,417
Fremont, CA
Tierney to Boston for Grzelcyk

I think Boston might have to add something small to balance the value but I like the premise.

I'd have to guess that if they were looking for a smallish offensive D, they'd just play Joachim Ryan and keep Tierney.

Joakim Ryan has mostly been a defensive defenseman at the NHL level. Joakim Ryan and Matt Grzelyck are both very good players and so I’d gladly take both of them on my team, regardless of their size.

Joakim Ryan is almost certainly going to play every game he’s healthy for next season.
 

Dr Quincy

Registered User
Jun 19, 2005
28,685
10,519
I think Boston might have to add something small to balance the value but I like the premise.



Joakim Ryan has mostly been a defensive defenseman at the NHL level. Joakim Ryan and Matt Grzelyck are both very good players and so I’d gladly take both of them on my team, regardless of their size.

Joakim Ryan is almost certainly going to play every game he’s healthy for next season.
Eh, I'm not optimistic about Gryz long term. He'll have years when he is a regular player, but he'll have years when he's a #7. I see him as Matt Hunwick 2.0
 

CanadienShark

Registered User
Dec 18, 2012
37,361
10,616
Mtl has a bunch of young RD. Realistically I'm not sure who is worth Tierney in our RD pool. it's really our only strength.

Lehkonen for Tierney ?
you will be able to do a Finnish line

MY mistake I read RW LOL

edit: Lernout would be my go to for your RD rebuild
Lernout would be a pass for me. I'd been aiming for Juulsen, which is probably a nonstarter. Maybe something around Petry + D prospect for Tierney + 2nd?
 

CanadienShark

Registered User
Dec 18, 2012
37,361
10,616
I’d be interested in Tierney.

What would be the cost from Philadelphia?
Konecny. Just to stick it to you guys. :naughty:

Seriously though, how is Myers looking? Perhaps a deal involving those two, or is he off the table?
 

SnS

Global Moderator
Jan 27, 2009
18,294
6,639
Wilson, North Carolina
Konecny. Just to stick it to you guys. :naughty:

Seriously though, how is Myers looking? Perhaps a deal involving those two, or is he off the table?

Maybe. That would be kind of funny.

Myers has been phenomenal minus injuries. I think if he gets moved it’s for someone who’s a defender. There’s some fans penciling him in the top four this coming season. But I don’t think that’s the case. Hextall is very patient.

Our main issue is, we have Sanheim and Myers in the pipeline as our top 2 defender prospects, but our baboon of a coach didn’t play Sanheim and Sanheim looked great after early struggles, imo. Morin getting hurt and most likely missing a majority of this coming season, also throws a wrench in the fold. So I’m not sure if he’d trot Myers and Sanheim out there along with Provo and ghost.

I’d look to move Gudas if I was in charge, personally. He looked very neutered after his suspension but still looked “solid”, just wasn’t his normal aggressive self, and then I’d go with...

Provo / Ghost
Sanheim / Farmer
Hagg / Myers
Vet 7 or TJ Brennan.

But I personally don’t see that, I’m scared that Sanheim will be starting in the ahl this season because Hakstol was hesistent to use him.

In short, I’d move Myers but I don’t think a tierney / myers deal is possible.
 

CanadienShark

Registered User
Dec 18, 2012
37,361
10,616
Maybe. That would be kind of funny.

Myers has been phenomenal minus injuries. I think if he gets moved it’s for someone who’s a defender. There’s some fans penciling him in the top four this coming season. But I don’t think that’s the case. Hextall is very patient.

Our main issue is, we have Sanheim and Myers in the pipeline as our top 2 defender prospects, but our baboon of a coach didn’t play Sanheim and Sanheim looked great after early struggles, imo. Morin getting hurt and most likely missing a majority of this coming season, also throws a wrench in the fold. So I’m not sure if he’d trot Myers and Sanheim out there along with Provo and ghost.

I’d look to move Gudas if I was in charge, personally. He looked very neutered after his suspension but still looked “solid”, just wasn’t his normal aggressive self, and then I’d go with...

Provo / Ghost
Sanheim / Farmer
Hagg / Myers
Vet 7 or TJ Brennan.

But I personally don’t see that, I’m scared that Sanheim will be starting in the ahl this season because Hakstol was hesistent to use him.

In short, I’d move Myers but I don’t think a tierney / myers deal is possible.
That's fair. I too see Myers as a high upside type of prospect, but figured that he might be able to be pried away because of a numbers game. I'm not sure you guys have another prospect that would fit the bill for us.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->