chooch isn't saying Gretzky is the 12th best player of all time, he is saying Gretzky is the 12th best player of the past 30 years! All time, he is much lower.
Wayne Gretzky the 12th best player in the past 30 years......
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Wayne Gretzky the 12th best player in the past 30 years......
You are almost as bad as Sensrule. Sheesh. I am ignoring him until he puts up, or shuts up, with his own list, but I will answer you, and ignore your childish Pejorative Slured last comment.
You have taken what I said out of context. When I said he has been in Sakic and Forsberg's shadow I was refering to what people think of him. He never get's the credit he deserves BECAUSE he plays with Sakic and Forsberg. They get all the credit. The same way Alfie gets all the credit.
In 03-04 Tanguay was 11th in the league in scoring. He only played 69 games, his season ending with injury in March. Alfredsson played 77 games and had 1 more point than Tanguay. Forsberg only played 39 games, and they were spread out. With the exception of 9 in October and 12 in January, Forsberg played 6 or less games in each of the remaining months. Tanguay was also outscoring Sakic by the end of February, and was only 4 points back of eventual Art Ross winner Martin St.Louis. Sure being on a top NHL line is going to pad his stats, that should be something that is automatically understood. But no matter who your linemates are there is no way you are going to be chasing the Art Ross trophy at the end of February if you aren't a very good player in your own right.
Maybe the players like Sakic, Forsberg, and Alfresdsson get all the credit for a reason.
The reason for my "childish" comment is that you accuse Alfredsson of getting inflated stats because of his linemates. Tanguay is definitely NOT an exception to that.
Everything you just said about Tanguay could be said about Alfredsson. You just choose to give Tanguay the credit, and criticize Alfredsson for the same thing.
The reason for my "childish" comment is that you accuse Alfredsson of getting inflated stats because of his linemates. Tanguay is definitely NOT an exception to that.
Everything you just said about Tanguay could be said about Alfredsson. You just choose to give Tanguay the credit, and criticize Alfredsson for the same thing.
Sens Rule
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- Sep 22, 2005
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Well charlio you clearly started this argument in this thread where it wasn't even a relevant subject by dissing Alfie for no reason. You started this just becuse of my posting name cup2006sensrule.
So you post lists of forawards that you think are better than Alfredsson. What does that prove. Last season Alfie was one of the best forwards in the NHL. This is not arguable considering he was 5th in Hart voting and 4th among forwards.
But as to whether he will be a top forward this season in the future not the past. Well I showed how good Alfie has bee in the past 6 seasons. He is the only player in the NHL besides Forsberg and Jagr to get over a point a game in 5 of the past 6 seasons. Though Sakic had exactly a point a game (not over) in 5 of the 6 seasons too. Quite the contemporaries for Alfie... Forsberg, Sakic, Jagr.
But still this was Alfie;s best season. I don't expect him to repeat it this year at the exact same caliber. Thre are others at the same level of him in a 2-way game like Jokinen and Hossa. There are those that have a better offensive upside like 2 Sens.. Spezza and Heatley but neither can play an all aorund game like Alfie. Naslund had a below average season. He could be better than Alfie next season. Forsberg is not the 2-way force Alfie is at this point but he could be a more productive offensive force. Sakic could well be as good as Alfie at this point next season... same with Sundin. Elias is an underrated player. If he plays the whole season he could equal Alfie's all around game. None of the top 3 Tampa forwards are better than Alfie. In an all around game only St. Louis competes and if he regains his 2003/04 game he is better than Alfie.
Hossa is a true two way force.
But you seem to want to denigrate Alfredsson in a massive way. He was a top 5 forward in the NHL last season. He might be one of the top 5 forwards next season. Whether he is top 5 or top 10 or top 20 he will be one of the best players in the NHL next year.
You hate Alfie.... You spend a ton of time putting him down. There isn't a team in the NHL that wouldn't love Alfie on their team. Get off your high horse and admit Alfie is a great player now, and has been for the past 5 or 6 seasons and will be in the future.
Don't try to get out of this. Put up or Shut up! You say Alfie is a top 10 forward, well break out your top 10 list. Otherwise you are just a waste of time.
Tanguay is under-rated and gets no credit whereas Alfie is over-rated and gets all the credit. Big difference. Alfie wasn't the reason his line was so great. But most people seem to think so. No one even considers the contribution Tanguay makes, they just assume Sakic and Forsberg did everything.
Sens Rule
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- Sep 22, 2005
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I did put up or shut up. I am not the one lacking in arguments or evidence you are. All you say is that Alfie is overrated. You don't say why or why others are better than him.
Alfredsson was the best player on the Sens last season. I watched live 15 of their games, I watched another 50 onTV and a few more I listened to on the radio. Alfie was a better player than Spezza or Heatley. He woon the trophy for most 3 star selections by a wide margin.
I have presented a series of arguments with facts to back them up and you dismiss everyone with no actual facts to back up a single one of your arguments.
You gave names and descriptions but you didn't make a list. Don't even rank them 1-10. Put Alfie where ever. Who are the top 10 players in the league, in your veiw?
reckoning
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- Jan 4, 2005
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Yes, I saw the series. It`s just that anytime somebody tries to point out how great Gretzky was you tend to say he was a media creation who only scored in blowouts against weak teams; so I thought that providing a quote from an actual NHL player might help convince that Gretzky was better than you claim.
I never criticized your list because, believe me, I know that anytime someone posts a list on here the responses are usually:
"You`re an idiot! How come (insert favourite player) isn`t on there? What a stupid list! How can (this guy) be higher than (that guy) when he scored less points? There`s not enough Europeans on it, are you biased against them? etc. etc. etc."
Honestly I didn`t think your list was half bad. Didn`t agree with a few of your rankings, but that`s life. Even though Gretzky at #12 seems too low, I`ll give you credit for putting him there as when I saw the thread title I honestly didn`t think you`d put him on it.
As for my list, I`d be starting at the early 70s as well. Not including players who played their best years in Europe where I didn`t see them, or players who I saw in their later years but missed their prime (i.e. Howe, Hull, Mikita):
1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Bobby Orr
3. Mario Lemieux
4. Guy Lafleur
5. Ray Bourque
6. Mark Messier
7. Dominik Hasek
8. Denis Potvin
9. Patrick Roy
10. Bobby Clarke
11. Joe Sakic
12. Bryan Trottier
13. Niklas Lidstrom
14. Steve Yzerman
15. Ken Dryden
16. Chris Chelios
17. Phil Esposito
18. Jaromir Jagr
19. Billy Smith
20. Martin Brodeur
Bring Back Bucky
Registered User
You don't figure he'd know he'd get more reaction by putting him 12th then by leaving him off altogether?
I didnt think that quote was particularly appreciative of Gretz - it said more about Hunter stopping Flower. Remember Larry was quoted was saying "Gretsky could be contained" yadaydayada....
Anyways... I like your list and appreciate your taking time to compile it and for not trying to pass judgement over Cy Denndunderdale or somebody you never saw. I'm sure someone could easily and objectively argue that you have 99 and 68 flipped in the order and that you were just trying to get attention by doing that.....
I mean almost 6 Art Rosses playing in the tougher east...
I mean almost 6 Art Rosses playing in the tougher east...
This is the part of your argument I really have to disagree with Chooch, the east hasn't been the tougher conference in at least 20 years, there may have been a disparity on the 70s, but those years are long gone.
JCD
Registered User
I didnt think that quote was particularly appreciative of Gretz - it said more about Hunter stopping Flower. Remember Larry was quoted was saying "Gretsky could be contained" yadaydayada....
Anyways... I like your list and appreciate your taking time to compile it and for not trying to pass judgement over Cy Denndunderdale or somebody you never saw. I'm sure someone could easily and objectively argue that you have 99 and 68 flipped in the order and that you were just trying to get attention by doing that.....
I mean almost 6 Art Rosses playing in the tougher east...
Jagr played in the "tougher" East? When did the East get tougher than the West when Jagr was winning his Art Ross? The first of his FIVE Art Ross came in 94-95, his last in 00-01. During that span, New Jersey was the only non-Western team to win a Cup. West boasted almost all the powerhouse teams with the lone exception of the Devils.
I said "almost" 6 ARt Rosses (but for that Thornton dude who couldnt do nothin in the East last year) and he is in all likelihood the odds on fav for 2007 also.
Dont worry JCD I will prove when I have a few moments that the East is different, tougher hockey (if your eyes couldnt already tell it) and will furnish all the proof you desire (if Keenan didnt reveal it to you 2 weeks ago) and was much tougher to advance in the playoffs even when your Oil were "winning" cups.
Bring Back Bucky
Registered User
Wow, that's something to look forward to... should offer some real in depth and intelligent discourse for sure. Maybe you could reminisce about when some of your own heroes were whooping it up and winning cups for the organization that left them hawking their memorabilia on e-bay or pimping impotence tonics to keep in smokes and food. That would be entertaining as well.
which hull though? i would put both and take off chris chelios and ray bourque.
Sens Rule
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- Sep 22, 2005
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Well it is 1971 to date so Brett Hull. You can't not take Ray Bourque. He is without a doubt a top 20 player for the last 35 years. There are a few players that can not possibly be taken off a top 20 list and Bourque, Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, LaFleur, Potvin, Roy guys with a few more no brainers.
It is so hard to make a top 20 list like this becuse you inevitably leave some one off. Coffey is off of both Chooch's list and other top 20 lists in this thread. For a 15 year run Coffey AVERAGED over a 100 point per season pace as a defenceman. From his second year through 1981/82 through 1995/1996. That is incredible yet he isn't on the top 20 lists. And really if you take 5 defenceman in the top 20 it isn't that bad to leave him off the list if Orr, Bourque, Park, Chelios, Potvin, Robinson are on the list. Then there is Lidstrom too. So many amazing defencemen.
JCD
Registered User
Psycho Papa Joe
Porkchop Hoser
I'd have pretty much all those players on my list, except in a slightly different order, but Larry Robinson is a glaring ommission. I think he was better than Chelios or Lidstrom and IMO so do most observers.
Also, Orr and Esposito played their best years before I started following hockey in 1975 or so, so they wouldn't be on my list either. I don't remember seeing Orr play at all
As of 2005 Madonna had sold about 200 million, as of 1970 The Beatles had sold about 500 million.
Just another thing you are famously wrong about.
Bring Back Bucky
Registered User
Has Chooch reluctantly moved Wayne up into his top ten yet?
To be honest I expect Wayne would rather shovel elephant **** at a discount circus than receive the praises of chooch's top ten endorsement.
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