Chooch's Top 20 Players List

[charlio lemieux*]

Right off the bat, I'd toss these guys away right away. As soon as I saw the name I said "nope."

Demitra
Naslund
Gaborik
Gomez
Smyth
St.Louis
Spezza
Briere
Jokinen
Staal
Hejduk
Tanguay
Zetterberg
Datsyuk

That's half the names right there. If I sat down for more than a minute, I don't think it'd be very hard to squeeze Alfredsson into a top 10 position.

Don't be so quick to dismiss Tanguay, Zetterberg, Naslund, and Demitra as being beneath Alfie.

He's entirely right. Your list is arbitrary. I'm not sure I'd put Alfredsson at top 10 myself, but you offer a terrible, terrible argument. People always say "inflated stats" like it totally negates them. You haven't even tried to counter the arguement that he was fourth in Hart voting this year.

Though at least you've admitted it's just your opinion. But unless you consider the Hart Trophy to be a bias crapshoot then you have to admit, Alfredsson dominated this year.

Arbitrary? No. That is a legitimate list of quality players. Try to think. I hope I am not assuming too much when I ask you to use your brain. Every player on the first list deserves consideration for being in the top 10.

So, Alfie was 4th in Hart voting:

Forsberg - hurt
Elias - Sick
Sakic - Hejduk's injury/struggles hurt production
Sundin - injury, lack of TOI, no wingers
Iginla - No linemates
Hossa - no center
Pronger - Floated for regular season
St. Louis - didn't repeat 03-04
Naslund - terrible year for van #1 line

Alfie got lucky. He played on the right line on the right team. Because he is already a top 20-30 player when he has a carreer year it is a very good one. Ovechkin, Crosby, Kovalchuk, Richards, Lecavalier, Nash, Staal, Spezza and Heatley all have excellent chances of winning a hart in the near future. They just need the right situation. So juast beacuse Alfie had the right situation to get votes for the MVP, doesn't make him the 4th best player in the league.

 

[chooch*]

Don't give me that *** bull!****. Any guy that owns all these records and has won as many awards as he has should be number one on anyone's list or at WORST, number second on anyone's list. No one will ever dominate the game like #99 did. Truly the Great One.

Madonna sold a lot more records and won more awards than the Beatles.

 

[alanschu]

Don't be so quick to dismiss Tanguay, Zetterberg, Naslund, and Demitra as being beneath Alfie.

The only one I'd even think of reconsidering at this point would be Naslund, but he didn't play well last season.

 

[reckoning]

Its not as bad as your assessment of Gretzky' s performeance in the 3 game sweep of the Habs. Thats truly funny to anyone who watched it as I did rather than read the stats in a Hockey book 25 years later. (here's a clue - the reason the Oilers won was "A.M.").

If your A.M. refers to Andy Moog, then you`re wrong. He may have stolen Game 2, but Gretzky and the Oilers were the better team in the other two games and deserved to win.

From Larry Robinson`s book about Game 1 in that series:

"Lafleur disappeared in that series under a checking blanket named Dave Hunter. Everywhere Guy went, Hunter went. Meanwhile Gretzky was tying us in knots at the other end of the rink, with 5 assists as the Oilers banged us 6-3 in the opener. I had a miserable night- I was on the ice for 5 goals against. Serge Savard was on the ice for 3 goals against and everytime he touched the puck the Forum fans booed. Behind the bench, Claude Ruel was having his lunch eaten by Glen Sather. He responded to the checking of Lafleur by going to three lines which left our top checking centre, Doug Jarvis, on the bench for the last two periods. We were the home team with the last line change but still Ruel couldn`t get Lafleur free of Hunter.

 

[OvechkinDomination*]

Madonna sold a lot more records and won more awards than the Beatles.

Don't give a s***.

How can you put a guy 12th spot who had 200+ points four times in his career or scored 50 goals in 39 games? Why?

'' Wayne had that Kurri guy and that superstar Semenko on his line!!11 they made him Gretzky good!!111 Lemieux was teh hurt and he deserved it!!1 wah wah let's forget about how Wayne was injured since 91 his daugher Paulina rejected me too!!11 ''

He IS the all time leader in goals, assists and points in the entire history in the NHL. 80's Gretzky in his prime > anyone else.

 

[Sens Rule]

Madonna sold a lot more records and won more awards than the Beatles.

The Beatles sold far more records than Madonna did. Far, Far more. Look it up.

 

[Sens Rule]

The Beatles sold far more records than Madonna did. Far, Far more. Look it up.

From this website: http://www.riaa.com/gp/bestsellers/topartists.asp

These are US only numbers but they suffice to prove the point.

Beatles 168.5 million albums sold. Most all time by 50 million over Elvis who sold 118.5 million. Madonna is 13th with 63 million albums sold.

 

[alanschu]

And they're probably STILL selling albums

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

From this website: http://www.riaa.com/gp/bestsellers/topartists.asp

These are US only numbers but they suffice to prove the point.

Beatles 168.5 million albums sold. Most all time by 50 million over Elvis who sold 118.5 million. Madonna is 13th with 63 million albums sold.

Another chooch point recieves the beatdown...

Big surprise...

Fabricate soemthing else chooch...

 

[charlio lemieux*]

The only one I'd even think of reconsidering at this point would be Naslund, but he didn't play well last season.

Understandable as the other three are way under-rated.
Tanguay has been in Forsberg and Sakic's shadow. Look for him to be top 15 in scoring with Iginla and some added ice time. He was chasing the Art Ross in 03-04 before an injury.

Demitra head to head with Alfie stacks up very well. Last season was good to Alfie and bad to Demitra, but before last year Demitra was only 3 goals and 50 points behind Alfie while playing 76 fewer games. Still he is only 90pts back while playing 95 fewer games.

Zetterberg is already one of the top players in the league at only 25. Give him linemates like Heater and Spezza and he would be chasing the Art Ross trophy too. Instead he played with Holmstrom and either Mowers or Samuelsson, and still managed 85 points in 77 games and was a +29.

 

[Sens Rule]

Understandable as the other three are way under-rated.
Tanguay has been in Forsberg and Sakic's shadow. Look for him to be top 15 in scoring with Iginla and some added ice time. He was chasing the Art Ross in 03-04 before an injury.

Demitra head to head with Alfie stacks up very well. Last season was good to Alfie and bad to Demitra, but before last year Demitra was only 3 goals and 50 points behind Alfie while playing 76 fewer games. Still he is only 90pts back while playing 95 fewer games.

Zetterberg is already one of the top players in the league at only 25. Give him linemates like Heater and Spezza and he would be chasing the Art Ross trophy too. Instead he played with Holmstrom and either Mowers or Samuelsson, and still managed 85 points in 77 games and was a +29.

You claim Alfie isn't very good because he has linemates like Spezza and Heatley. Yet he only had those linemates for part of last season and mostly has been playing with guys like Smolinski and Todd White his whole career.

Then you say Tanguay has "been in Forsberg and Sakic's shadow" when he has been playing with one of those 2 pretty much his whole career which massively boosts his numbers.

If you want to argue that there are better forwards than Alfredsson you might not want to throw in Tanguay as it greatly weakens your argument. Because he isn't in that class of 2-way forwards by any stretch of the imagination. He shoots about half as much as most top scoring forwards, he rarely plays the PK or is put in defensive situations. Tanguay is a very good offensive player but will he ever be a candidate for the Selke trophy by any stretch of the imagination. He will never approach 40 goals unless his shooting percentage is like 30%+.

Forsberg, Sakic, Hossa, Sundin are peers of Alfie not Tanguay.

 

[OvechkinDomination*]

Another chooch point recieves the beatdown...

Big surprise...

Fabricate soemthing else chooch...

This guy should be banned. Almost every thread he makes it turns into a war and it is always meant to diss Wayne Gretzky.

2) Trolling: Do not post topics with the sole purpose of starting a dispute. Note that a person disagreeing with your opinion is NOT trolling; keep it civil, even if you're sure the other person is wrong. When visiting the team forums please note that they are fan forums for that team and are here mainly for the enjoyment of that team's fans. Do not visit team forums to cheer against or demean their team, or cheer for their opponent. In other words, if you want to cheer for the Habs and criticize the Bruins, do it on the Habs board. And if someone is doing the opposite on the Bruins board, don't start flaming them to defend the honor of your team. Either ignore it or respectfully disagree and move on.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=198617

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=251574

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=198615

 

[Malefic74]

Hey look a thread started by chooch where he finally reveals his precious list of HIS best players.

I wonder if I will be surprised.

Nope. The same arguments over and over. The man is a mrtyr to his own cause.

Why oh why did I even bother to open this thread?

 

[Bluesfan1981]

Madonna sold a lot more records and won more awards than the Beatles.

Wow, you aren't very bright are you? First with ranking Gretzky so low, and now for that ridiculous statement. As popular as Madonna is, she's nowhere near the Beatles and Elvis in records sold.

 

[AM]

Nah

Get a life, man.

Perhaps Forsberg could have been on the list. But he's injured so many times reminds me a little of lindros.

I've watched and studied them all and that top 6 of Lemieux at centre with lafleur and Jagr on wings with orr and add Bourque on D and Hasek in goal, would be unbeatable. They could play anybody anywhere anytime any set of rules.

Thats my criteria. No special rules, Mario would take all the punishment in the world and still dominate them all. And no, gReTzKy does not SuXoRz. He was a great player too.

Head to head Gretzky beats Mario.

Just ask Mario.

 

[chooch*]

Wow, you aren't very bright are you? First with ranking Gretzky so low, and now for that ridiculous statement. As popular as Madonna is, she's nowhere near the Beatles and Elvis in records sold.

I meant it as a statement of how numbers don't mean everything necessarily ie Spice Girls or Madonna sold more records and made more money than Leonard Cohen or someone of his ilk. Madonna has made more money than Ella Fitz...You know... DAn Brown sold more books and made more money than Camus....got it?

It was meant in reply to that guy who posted the 61 records of Wayne (you know.."most even strength goals against - career")....

So anyone who disagrees with you is not very bright or should be banned etc etc.

I'm sure you're in charge of the Mars Mission.

 

[chooch*]

If your A.M. refers to Andy Moog, then you`re wrong. He may have stolen Game 2, but Gretzky and the Oilers were the better team in the other two games and deserved to win.

From Larry Robinson`s book about Game 1 in that series:

Reckoning I'm surprised you'd wade into this bird brained argument about Gretzky that this thread has turned into. Even more surprised that you'd quote a book rather than your thoughts on that series....did you see it?

Your quote from Larry's book mentions Hunter over and over and yep he was the 2nd biggest reason OIlers won. But Moog was the key. Unfortunatley, despite all the monkey points, 99 was a non factor in that series.

I'd put Larry's backing down in front of Messiers threat as the other main reason, Funny Larry forgot to mention that one. I can still hear Dick Irvin say as Messier brought his stick blade to Larry's throat and told him to eff off or something ..."the Kid held his own".

The Habs wilted after that.

Anyway...where's Reckonings top 20 list???? You have a request.

 

[charlio lemieux*]

You claim Alfie isn't very good because he has linemates like Spezza and Heatley. Yet he only had those linemates for part of last season and mostly has been playing with guys like Smolinski and Todd White his whole career.

Then you say Tanguay has "been in Forsberg and Sakic's shadow" when he has been playing with one of those 2 pretty much his whole career which massively boosts his numbers.

If you want to argue that there are better forwards than Alfredsson you might not want to throw in Tanguay as it greatly weakens your argument. Because he isn't in that class of 2-way forwards by any stretch of the imagination. He shoots about half as much as most top scoring forwards, he rarely plays the PK or is put in defensive situations. Tanguay is a very good offensive player but will he ever be a candidate for the Selke trophy by any stretch of the imagination. He will never approach 40 goals unless his shooting percentage is like 30%+.

Forsberg, Sakic, Hossa, Sundin are peers of Alfie not Tanguay.

*ignore*

So where's your list?

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

I meant it as a statement of how numbers don't mean everything necessarily ie Spice Girls or Madonna sold more records and made more money than Leonard Cohen or someone of his ilk. Madonna has made more money than Ella Fitz...You know... DAn Brown sold more books and made more money than Camus....got it?

It was meant in reply to that guy who posted the 61 records of Wayne (you know.."most even strength goals against - career")....

So anyone who disagrees with you is not very bright or should be banned etc etc.

I'm sure you're in charge of the Mars Mission.

If that's what you meant saying "madonna has sold more records than the beatles" is an awfully strange way of saying it. SOrt of like saying "I'll have a whopper with cheese" and expecting to be served a Chicken sandwich

 

[RUSqueelin*]

If that's what you meant saying "madonna has sold more records than the beatles" is an awfully strange way of saying it. SOrt of like saying "I'll have a whopper with cheese" and expecting to be served a Chicken sandwich

No, saying "madonna has sold more records than the beatles " is like saying "Gretzky is the 12th best player of all time".

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

No, saying "madonna has sold more records than the beatles " is like saying "Gretzky is the 12th best player of all time".

Fo shizzle

 

[Transported Upstater]

Fo shizzle

Werd 2 yo motha

 

[Ogopogo*]

No, saying "madonna has sold more records than the beatles " is like saying "Gretzky is the 12th best player of all time".

chooch isn't saying Gretzky is the 12th best player of all time, he is saying Gretzky is the 12th best player of the past 30 years! All time, he is much lower.

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

I would love to play hockey with these clowns at chooch's local rink who wouldn't pick Gretzky to be on their team....



Is this rink by any chance inside the CNIB?

 

[alanschu]

Understandable as the other three are way under-rated.
Tanguay has been in Forsberg and Sakic's shadow. Look for him to be top 15 in scoring with Iginla and some added ice time. He was chasing the Art Ross in 03-04 before an injury.

I'm sure it was Tanguay padding the stats of Forsberg and Sakic (might as well toss Hejduk in there as well). I mean, you criticize Alfredsson for being on a stacked team....

Good thing Peter learned everything Tanguay could teach him so he could excel over in Philadelphia. They should probably give Tanguay credit for some of the assists on Gagne's goals.