Prospect Info: CHL, NCAA and European 2018-19 Prospects Thread

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Triumph

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1)Just because you are not familiar with Tier 3 hockey does not make it obscure. There are similar leagues in the US and the Alumni list is very solid.

We were talking about the NHL here, and in the context of the NHL, the EIHL is not really a path there. Hraberenka's teammates - the top scorer didn't play college hockey, the 2nd top scorer went to Manhattanville College, and the rest of the guys I clicked on who played college hockey were either decent players at 2nd tier college hockey schools or 4th liners at top tier schools. None of them are currently playing AHL hockey or in an equivalent league in Europe. I recognize, and am not diminishing, the amount of skill it takes to play at that level. But this is not a path to the NHL or even really to being drafted, usually (yes, Vesey got drafted out of there, as a single overage)

2)You started this off by saying Sharangovich could bolt tomorrow and head back to the KHL. There was certainly some hyperbole to that statement so I didn't nit pick. But given Sharangovich expressed genuine excitement about coming over, played well in preseason, and has started the AHL season playing well, I'm not sure why we would think that he may have concerns about his NHL future in the next couple years.

I'm not concerned about this happening. What I am saying, and what you're failing to read, is that players who have established connections to other nations where high-level hockey is also played will often return there once things don't work out in North America. If Sharangovich finishes the season with 10 goals and says he's done with this, he'll be done. And usually when guys quit on an NHL contract, they seldom get a chance at a 2nd one. The more important takeaway from what I said originally that you decided to pick a nit about was that Sharangovich is not some high-level prospect. He's had some good results in the KHL and he's looking good so far in the AHL, but still the odds are he won't be a regular NHL player.

I also factor in that he is not Russian. Sure euro's in general would rather play pro over there then toil in the minors here for an extended period, but Russians seem much more prone to jumping ship at the first signs of trouble then other nationalities.

I don't really agree with this - Russians are far more prominent in this regard because NHL-quality players have left, but there've been plenty of other European players who have had mutually terminated contracts, or have refused to sign in North America after being drafted, or who have left very quickly. It's a cultural adjustment and an on-ice adjustment and some guys can't or don't want to make it.
 
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Brodeur

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CHL announces rosters for CIBC Canada-Russia Series - Sportsnet.ca

Smith and Bernard named to their respective leagues' roster for the annual Canada/Russia exhibition games.

They will kick off the series on Nov. 5 in in Kamloops, B.C., and play a second game on Nov. 6 in Vancouver.

The first OHL game will take place on Nov. 8 in Sarnia, Ont., while the second will be played on Nov. 12 in Oshawa, Ont.

The two games against featuring Team QMJHL will take place on Nov. 13 in Sherbrooke, Que., and Nov. 15 in Drummondville, Que.

Handful of 2019 draft eligibles will be playing as well. I vaguely recall NHL Network showing some of these games in the past.
 

devilsblood

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We were talking about the NHL here, and in the context of the NHL, the EIHL is not really a path there. Hraberenka's teammates - the top scorer didn't play college hockey, the 2nd top scorer went to Manhattanville College, and the rest of the guys I clicked on who played college hockey were either decent players at 2nd tier college hockey schools or 4th liners at top tier schools. None of them are currently playing AHL hockey or in an equivalent league in Europe. I recognize, and am not diminishing, the amount of skill it takes to play at that level. But this is not a path to the NHL or even really to being drafted, usually (yes, Vesey got drafted out of there, as a single overage)



I'm not concerned about this happening. What I am saying, and what you're failing to read, is that players who have established connections to other nations where high-level hockey is also played will often return there once things don't work out in North America. If Sharangovich finishes the season with 10 goals and says he's done with this, he'll be done. And usually when guys quit on an NHL contract, they seldom get a chance at a 2nd one. The more important takeaway from what I said originally that you decided to pick a nit about was that Sharangovich is not some high-level prospect. He's had some good results in the KHL and he's looking good so far in the AHL, but still the odds are he won't be a regular NHL player.



I don't really agree with this - Russians are far more prominent in this regard because NHL-quality players have left, but there've been plenty of other European players who have had mutually terminated contracts, or have refused to sign in North America after being drafted, or who have left very quickly. It's a cultural adjustment and an on-ice adjustment and some guys can't or don't want to make it.
1)There were other guys who went pro when Hrabarenka was. Trevor Van Riemsdyk was in the league at that time. Chris Wagner, currently with the Bruins was there. Plenty of guys went on to play Div 1 hockey. Is it the QMJHL? No, but Hrabarenka was in the Q the very next season. So I'm not even sure what the point is in this regard.

2)I thought the concern you were originally putting forth in regards to Sharangovich was, as a 5th rounder there are different risks, and Sharangovich could be a guy who goes back to Europe. Well yeah he could if his AHL career flames out. But while that is possible it's not imminent. Anybodies career can flame out, the fact that he may go back to Europe after that point is pretty irrelevant.


3)I noted it in my other post on the previous page. Who has concerns about Zetterlund coming over? Or Studenic heading back to Europe? But Pop's, Maltsev? Who know?, Definitely concerns about the former. And Rykov is a guy whose rights we traded because there were concerns he would not come over. The difference between Russians and everyone else seems pretty stark.
 

Triumph

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1)There were other guys who went pro when Hrabarenka was. Trevor Van Riemsdyk was in the league at that time. Chris Wagner, currently with the Bruins was there. Plenty of guys went on to play Div 1 hockey. Is it the QMJHL? No, but Hrabarenka was in the Q the very next season. So I'm not even sure what the point is in this regard.

The point is that it's not the route for NHL players. According to hockeydb, no one was drafted out of the EJHL in 2018, 2017, 2016, or 2015. You always get into the weeds like this but that was my point - Hraberenka made a pretty big commitment to come over to North America to play in a 3rd tier league. It's unclear whether his path there was to try to go to a North American university or whether hockey was the end goal. He hasn't played yet in 2018 so he might've retired - if so, he had a nice career.

2)I thought the concern you were originally putting forth in regards to Sharangovich was, as a 5th rounder there are different risks, and Sharangovich could be a guy who goes back to Europe. Well yeah he could if his AHL career flames out. But while that is possible it's not imminent. Anybodies career can flame out, the fact that he may go back to Europe after that point is pretty irrelevant.

It's not even if his career flames out. It's if his career stalls. You rarely see North American players have their contracts mutually terminated. It happens, but it happens much more often to European players.

3)I noted it in my other post on the previous page. Who has concerns about Zetterlund coming over? Or Studenic heading back to Europe? But Pop's, Maltsev? Who know?, Definitely concerns about the former. And Rykov is a guy whose rights we traded because there were concerns he would not come over. The difference between Russians and everyone else seems pretty stark.

Studenic already came over to play in the OHL. Zetterlund just came over to play in the rookie tournament. The difference between Russians and other players is partly the lack of transfer agreement between the two leagues, partly the cultural divide between here and North America, and partly the pressure that KHL teams put on Russian players to stay there, but it's more that NHL-level players will play in the KHL whereas the Swedes and Finns and everyone else who goes back overseas early don't make headlines. It's still something that happens.
 

devilsblood

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The point is that it's not the route for NHL players. According to hockeydb, no one was drafted out of the EJHL in 2018, 2017, 2016, or 2015. You always get into the weeds like this but that was my point - Hraberenka made a pretty big commitment to come over to North America to play in a 3rd tier league. It's unclear whether his path there was to try to go to a North American university or whether hockey was the end goal. He hasn't played yet in 2018 so he might've retired - if so, he had a nice career.



It's not even if his career flames out. It's if his career stalls. You rarely see North American players have their contracts mutually terminated. It happens, but it happens much more often to European players.



Studenic already came over to play in the OHL. Zetterlund just came over to play in the rookie tournament. The difference between Russians and other players is partly the lack of transfer agreement between the two leagues, partly the cultural divide between here and North America, and partly the pressure that KHL teams put on Russian players to stay there, but it's more that NHL-level players will play in the KHL whereas the Swedes and Finns and everyone else who goes back overseas early don't make headlines. It's still something that happens.
1)There is a reason that the EJHL has not had anyone drafted in recent years, and it is not because Tier 3 hockey does not have NHL level talent flowing through it. Am I caught in the weeds on this point? I don't even know why where Hrabarenka played 7 years before leaving the AHL is relevant, but it's a point you brought up and keep going back to.

2)Yeah Stud's came to the OHL, so did Pops, but Pops went back to Russia a few months after being drafted. Zetterlund came over and played in the rookie tournament. The Russians didn't, this is to my point. We traded Rykov because we thought he may not come over.

3)As per this quote, "The difference between Russians and other players is partly the lack of transfer agreement between the two leagues, partly the cultural divide between here and North America, and partly the pressure that KHL teams put on Russian players to stay there" . Does this not also support my argument? Do Euro's go back to Europe when their careers here flame out? Like JJ, or Ted's, or Brunner. Sure, but Russians don't even come over sometimes, leave when they don't agree with the coach, leave in the early stages of multi million dollar deals.
 

Triumph

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1)There is a reason that the EJHL has not had anyone drafted in recent years, and it is not because Tier 3 hockey does not have NHL level talent flowing through it. Am I caught in the weeds on this point? I don't even know why where Hrabarenka played 7 years before leaving the AHL is relevant, but it's a point you brought up and keep going back to.

Because it's a big commitment for a 17 year old from Belarus to move to another country halfway across the world to play hockey. And kind of an even bigger commitment if it's not even for a major junior program, but somehow you bring up this irrelevant point that the EJHL is an NHL feeder, which it isn't. You brought up Hrabarenka first of course, and that's why it's relevant - he made a big commitment to North America before it made one to him. There were zero guarantees that he would play major junior from that opportunity, much less have a pro career at all here. I was contrasting that with Sharangovich, who presumably could've taken a similar route but he did not - he played hockey in Belarus as a teenager.

2)Yeah Stud's came to the OHL, so did Pops, but Pops went back to Russia a few months after being drafted. Zetterlund came over and played in the rookie tournament. The Russians didn't, this is to my point. We traded Rykov because we thought he may not come over.

Russian teams would never allow one of their players to play in those tournaments.

Popugaev's experience is rare and it's not like he went back there for an amazing opportunity - he's playing 4th line minutes in Siberia now. There's something more going on there, I suspect.

European players like Studenic, if they're liminal NHLers at the end of 3 or 4 years here, will frequently go overseas. I doubt he would break his NHL contract to do it, but if at the end of his deal he hasn't really gotten an NHL opportunity? Europe awaits. Now the Slovakian league probably doesn't pay very well, so I imagine he'd play in another league, but this is also a thing that happens.

3)As per this quote, "The difference between Russians and other players is partly the lack of transfer agreement between the two leagues, partly the cultural divide between here and North America, and partly the pressure that KHL teams put on Russian players to stay there" . Does this not also support my argument? Do Euro's go back to Europe when their careers here flame out? Like JJ, or Ted's, or Brunner. Sure, but Russians don't even come over sometimes, leave when they don't agree with the coach, leave in the early stages of multi million dollar deals.

A Swiss guy just left today, he wasn't getting ice time in the AHL. Jari Viukhola left here after a month or two. You brought up Brunner - he also was given a mutual contract termination. This happens much more than you think, and Russians leave less often than you think (and teams will sometimes use their ability to leave as leverage against them, as Vegas did with Shipachayov last year).
 

Call Me Al

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hrabarenka left because he couldn’t cut it enough to make the nhl. if sharangovich isn’t good enough for the nhl then no one cares what he does. this 2 year thing is arbitrary though. if his goal is to make the nhl and his game improves then hopefully he will stay. unfortunately without a crystal ball no one knows what he is going to do on or off the ice
 

Nubmer6

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hrabarenka left because he couldn’t cut it enough to make the nhl. if sharangovich isn’t good enough for the nhl then no one cares what he does. this 2 year thing is arbitrary though. if his goal is to make the nhl and his game improves then hopefully he will stay. unfortunately without a crystal ball no one knows what he is going to do on or off the ice
I have a crystal ball (literally... a weird decoration from my mom) and I still can't tell :cool:
 

Brodeur

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For those with NESN, they're airing Northeastern's game at 7pm in case anybody wants to watch Jeremy Davies.
 

Triumph

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hrabarenka left because he couldn’t cut it enough to make the nhl. if sharangovich isn’t good enough for the nhl then no one cares what he does. this 2 year thing is arbitrary though. if his goal is to make the nhl and his game improves then hopefully he will stay. unfortunately without a crystal ball no one knows what he is going to do on or off the ice

I think the point I was trying to make was twofold but I absolutely do not blame you for not being able to follow along, because I think I really was forced to emphasize part A -

A: European players, regardless of birthplace and mostly regardless of previous experience, are more likely to leave an AHL team than their North American counterparts. But like you said, most of them are players who have no NHL future.

B: NHL teams also treat European-born players differently than North American born ones - they tend to assume that European players will not fit in well at the back of a roster, or will not be minor league players for an extended period of time. League-wide, you don't see a ton of European-born 4th liners or 7th defensemen, and I can't think of any long-time AHLers who are European-born and raised (there probably are some, I'm just not thinking of them). This is just something to watch for now that the Devils have drafted more European players - someone like devilsblood in 3 years will be like 'why did [fill in the blank] go to the KHL/SHL/Swiss League, he played 20 NHL games and did okay' and that might be why. The Devils just had Christoph Bertschy do this in the off-season.

Anyway, last post on this subject, but just wanted to clear that up.
 

VoidCreature

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Smith is outscoring or tied in pace with every player picked ahead of him who's still in junior. Even the forwards.

F Barret Hayton, 5th, 4 games, 4 goals, 7 Points, 1.75 PPG

D Adam Boqvist, 8th, 7 Games, 0 Goals, 4 Points .57 PPG

D Noah Dobson, 10th, 8 games, 3 Goals, 6 Points .75 PPG

F Ty Dellandrea, 13th, 9 games, 2 Goals, 5 Points, .55 PPG

D Ty Smith, 17th, 8 Games, 1 Goal, 14 Points, 1.75 PPG

Going further, if we accept NHLe as an accurate translation factor and use it to extrapolate pace, we can see he's outperforming or tied with everyone not named Tkachuk or Svechnikov (considering how early it is, some of these are going to be very silly)

1st, Dahlin, 35 Point Pace
2nd, Svechnikov, 46 Point Pace
3rd, Kotkaniemi, 27 Point Pace
4th, Tkachuk, 123 Point Pace (!!!)
5th, Hayton, 44 Point Pace (NHLe)
6th, Zadina, 23 Point Pace (NHLe)
7th, Hughes, 0 Point Pace (NHLe)
8th, Boqvist, 14 Point Pace (NHLe)
9th, Kravtsov, 23 Point Pace (NHLe)
10th, Bouchard, 0 Point Pace
11th, Wahlstrom, 17 Point Pace (NHLe)
12th, Dobson, 16 Point Pace (NHLe)
13th, Dellandrea, 14 Point Pace (NHLe)
14th, Farabee, 17 Point Pace (NHLe)
15th, Denisenko (KHL Games), 16 Point Pace (NHLe)
16th, Kaut, 10 Point Pace (NHLe)
17th, Ty Smith, 44 Point Pace (NHLe)

Obviously we are dealing with a very small and varying sample size here, one that's particularly unfair to Quinn Hughes, whose single scoreless game has him on a 0 point pace.

But this should help put Smith's performance into perspective. His start has been monumentally impressive.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

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Smith is outscoring or tied in pace with every player picked ahead of him who's still in junior. Even the forwards.

F Barret Hayton, 5th, 4 games, 4 goals, 7 Points, 1.75 PPG

D Adam Boqvist, 8th, 7 Games, 0 Goals, 4 Points .57 PPG

D Noah Dobson, 10th, 8 games, 3 Goals, 6 Points .75 PPG

F Ty Dellandrea, 13th, 9 games, 2 Goals, 5 Points, .55 PPG

D Ty Smith, 17th, 8 Games, 1 Goal, 14 Points, 1.75 PPG

Going further, if we accept NHLe as an accurate translation factor and use it to extrapolate pace, we can see he's outperforming or tied with everyone not named Tkachuk or Svechnikov (considering how early it is, some of these are going to be very silly)

1st, Dahlin, 35 Point Pace
2nd, Svechnikov, 46 Point Pace
3rd, Kotkaniemi, 27 Point Pace
4th, Tkachuk, 123 Point Pace (!!!)
5th, Hayton, 44 Point Pace (NHLe)
6th, Zadina, 23 Point Pace (NHLe)
7th, Hughes, 0 Point Pace (NHLe)
8th, Boqvist, 14 Point Pace (NHLe)
9th, Kravtsov, 23 Point Pace (NHLe)
10th, Bouchard, 0 Point Pace
11th, Wahlstrom, 17 Point Pace (NHLe)
12th, Dobson, 16 Point Pace (NHLe)
13th, Dellandrea, 14 Point Pace (NHLe)
14th, Farabee, 17 Point Pace (NHLe)
15th, Denisenko (KHL Games), 16 Point Pace (NHLe)
16th, Kaut, 10 Point Pace (NHLe)
17th, Ty Smith, 44 Point Pace (NHLe)

Obviously we are dealing with a very small and varying sample size here, one that's particularly unfair to Quinn Hughes, whose single scoreless game has him on a 0 point pace.

But this should help put Smith's performance into perspective. His start has been monumentally impressive.

Smith had a goal and an assist last night

2 goals, 14 assists in 9 games.
 

Blender

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Smith is outscoring or tied in pace with every player picked ahead of him who's still in junior. Even the forwards.

F Barret Hayton, 5th, 4 games, 4 goals, 7 Points, 1.75 PPG

D Adam Boqvist, 8th, 7 Games, 0 Goals, 4 Points .57 PPG

D Noah Dobson, 10th, 8 games, 3 Goals, 6 Points .75 PPG

F Ty Dellandrea, 13th, 9 games, 2 Goals, 5 Points, .55 PPG

D Ty Smith, 17th, 8 Games, 1 Goal, 14 Points, 1.75 PPG

Going further, if we accept NHLe as an accurate translation factor and use it to extrapolate pace, we can see he's outperforming or tied with everyone not named Tkachuk or Svechnikov (considering how early it is, some of these are going to be very silly)

1st, Dahlin, 35 Point Pace
2nd, Svechnikov, 46 Point Pace
3rd, Kotkaniemi, 27 Point Pace
4th, Tkachuk, 123 Point Pace (!!!)
5th, Hayton, 44 Point Pace (NHLe)
6th, Zadina, 23 Point Pace (NHLe)
7th, Hughes, 0 Point Pace (NHLe)
8th, Boqvist, 14 Point Pace (NHLe)
9th, Kravtsov, 23 Point Pace (NHLe)
10th, Bouchard, 0 Point Pace
11th, Wahlstrom, 17 Point Pace (NHLe)
12th, Dobson, 16 Point Pace (NHLe)
13th, Dellandrea, 14 Point Pace (NHLe)
14th, Farabee, 17 Point Pace (NHLe)
15th, Denisenko (KHL Games), 16 Point Pace (NHLe)
16th, Kaut, 10 Point Pace (NHLe)
17th, Ty Smith, 44 Point Pace (NHLe)

Obviously we are dealing with a very small and varying sample size here, one that's particularly unfair to Quinn Hughes, whose single scoreless game has him on a 0 point pace.

But this should help put Smith's performance into perspective. His start has been monumentally impressive.
The only problem with this analysis is that NHLe predicts production for next season, not this one. So you can't really compare it to guys already playing in the NHL this year as a rookie.
 

VoidCreature

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The only problem with this analysis is that NHLe predicts production for next season, not this one. So you can't really compare it to guys already playing in the NHL this year as a rookie.

Interesting, didn't know that.

Still, outpacing everyone not in the NHL is a pretty impressive feat for our guy.
 
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devilsblood

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Because it's a big commitment for a 17 year old from Belarus to move to another country halfway across the world to play hockey. And kind of an even bigger commitment if it's not even for a major junior program, but somehow you bring up this irrelevant point that the EJHL is an NHL feeder, which it isn't. You brought up Hrabarenka first of course, and that's why it's relevant - he made a big commitment to North America before it made one to him. There were zero guarantees that he would play major junior from that opportunity, much less have a pro career at all here. I was contrasting that with Sharangovich, who presumably could've taken a similar route but he did not - he played hockey in Belarus as a teenager.



Russian teams would never allow one of their players to play in those tournaments.

Popugaev's experience is rare and it's not like he went back there for an amazing opportunity - he's playing 4th line minutes in Siberia now. There's something more going on there, I suspect.

European players like Studenic, if they're liminal NHLers at the end of 3 or 4 years here, will frequently go overseas. I doubt he would break his NHL contract to do it, but if at the end of his deal he hasn't really gotten an NHL opportunity? Europe awaits. Now the Slovakian league probably doesn't pay very well, so I imagine he'd play in another league, but this is also a thing that happens.



A Swiss guy just left today, he wasn't getting ice time in the AHL. Jari Viukhola left here after a month or two. You brought up Brunner - he also was given a mutual contract termination. This happens much more than you think, and Russians leave less often than you think (and teams will sometimes use their ability to leave as leverage against them, as Vegas did with Shipachayov last year).
I never said the EJHL is an NHL feeder. And we have no idea why Hrabarenka went there. Bet we do know he was in the Q the very next year.

On the one hand you support the idea that Russians have these pressures and influences to stay in Russia, that other Euro's do not have, on the other hand you deny it.

But whatever, I'm not concerned about Sharangovich heading back to the KHL(either tomorrow, after the season, or 5 years down the line) but if you want to think it's a concern then go for it.
 
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