Proposal: CHI-COL

[Patagonia]

Financial ramifications? In 2019, the Hawks were ranked 4th in valuation and revenue. Avs were 22nd. If anyone can weather a lockdown its the Hawks.

Do you actually do any research before you comment? AVs is owned by a Walmart heir. They’re the richest owner in the league at $9B which includes the LA Rams, Arsenal Soccer & Denever Nuggets. Owner is 20x richer than the Hawks and wealthier than the total market cap of Molsons owner of the Habs.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Do you actually do any research before you comment? AVs is owned by a Walmart heir. They’re the richest owner in the league at $9B which includes the LA Rams, Arsenal Soccer & Denever Nuggets. Owner is 20x richer than the Hawks and wealthier than the total market cap of Molsons owner of the Habs.

Here's the rub. When you run a company, you don't undertake a valuation on the owner's wealth. Its based on the company's wealth and revenues, P&Ls. And the Hawks were ranked #4 in the league in revenue and valuation. From a company perspective, the Hawks are in good condition to weather a lock down. There's nothing wrong with that statement.

If the Avs owner is happy to run his business at a loss - well great. But from a company health perspective, one is more healthier than the other.

 

[Patagonia]

Here's the rub. When you run a company, you don't undertake a valuation on the owner's wealth. Its based on the company's wealth and revenues, P&Ls. And the Hawks were ranked #4 in the league in revenue and valuation. From a company perspective, the Hawks are in good condition to weather a lock down. There's nothing wrong with that statement.

If the Avs owner is happy to run his business at a loss - well great. But from a company health perspective, one is more healthier than the other.

AVs are part of a massive conglomerate of sports businesses They can bundle for tv, marketing and merchandising. They’re also profitable and even if they lose money, it’s a write off to make more money.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

AVs are part of a massive conglomerate of sports businesses They can bundle for tv, marketing and merchandising. They’re also profitable and even if they lose money, it’s a write off to make more money.

You've completely missed the point. The implication from Richard was that there would be financial ramifications of the lockdown for the Hawks owner so they should consider dealing away players at lesser value. Yet, the Hawks are one of the more healthy teams financially. This has nothing to do with the health of the Avs franchise, which i am sure is in good financial condition.

 

[josra33]

Anyone who thinks offense was Colorado’s problem clearly doesn’t watch their games.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Please explain that hypothesis...

Saad is a $6m ~45 point player. Even with 25% retention, he's still $4.5m, and a UFA after next season. So, he's expensive, and not a long term solution. With the flat cap, there's an idea floating around that a lot of teams will be sellers, and there won't be very many buyers, giving a team with a bunch of cap space and a deep prospect pool to pull off some deals that could plausibly return someone younger/cheaper/better than Saad.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Sakic gets that kind of player without giving up our 1st or Jost. What did we pay for Burakovsky? A 2nd, 3rd and a nobody AHLer? What did we pay for Grubauer? A 2nd and Orpik's buyout? That's where Sakic likes to shop.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Saad is a $6m ~45 point player. Even with 25% retention, he's still $4.5m, and a UFA after next season. So, he's expensive, and not a long term solution. With the flat cap, there's an idea floating around that a lot of teams will be sellers, and there won't be very many buyers, giving a team with a bunch of cap space and a deep prospect pool to pull off some deals that could plausibly return someone younger/cheaper/better than Saad.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Sakic gets that kind of player without giving up our 1st or Jost. What did we pay for Burakovsky? A 2nd, 3rd and a nobody AHLer? What did we pay for Grubauer? A 2nd and Orpik's buyout? That's where Sakic likes to shop.

I agree with the over-valuing of Saad based on his caphit. Disagree on the comparison with Burakovsky. When the Avs traded for him he was less than a 0.5PPG player, coming off back-to-back 25 pt seasons.

 

[HawkeyTalkMan]

Depends on the retention. Let's just say like a 3rd or C prospect.

I think if it's compher and a 3rd, Chicago probably stops at like 25% retention.

I'm obviously completely making this up but I feel Saad at $4.5 mil is fair for compher and a 3rd. I would think Saad at 35-40% retention ($3.6-3.9 mil) bumps it to a value of like two seconds. Saad at 50% ($3 mil) probably gets a 1st relatively easily.

 

[HawkeyTalkMan]

Saad is a $6m ~45 point player. Even with 25% retention, he's still $4.5m, and a UFA after next season. So, he's expensive, and not a long term solution. With the flat cap, there's an idea floating around that a lot of teams will be sellers, and there won't be very many buyers, giving a team with a bunch of cap space and a deep prospect pool to pull off some deals that could plausibly return someone younger/cheaper/better than Saad.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Sakic gets that kind of player without giving up our 1st or Jost. What did we pay for Burakovsky? A 2nd, 3rd and a nobody AHLer? What did we pay for Grubauer? A 2nd and Orpik's buyout? That's where Sakic likes to shop.

how many 25+ goal scorers are out there for $4.5 mil?

 

[John Mandalorian]

I like Saad as a player. However, it’s strange how some cap dumps involve sending a 1st as an enticement to take on a contract. Sometimes you see the draft pick going the other way to acquire the player. What makes this the latter and not the former?

If the Blackhawks are in a tight spot with their cap, why should the Avs give them a 1st to help them out?

It’s not the worst trade proposal that I’ve seen but it’s lacking in that if the Avs are helping the Blackhawks with their cap, that’s the benefit...and it’s enough. It shouldn’t also cost the 1st.

Yes, Saad is a much better player than Jost. However, the value of clearing up space for Chicago negates the need to also add the draft pick.

 

[Halla]

Saad is a 20g/40pt 3rd liner making 6. this would be a bad deal for the avs

 

[Halla]

how many 25+ goal scorers are out there for $4.5 mil?

Saad has only done that once in his career

Andreas Johnsson had 20g/43pts as a rookie and could be had for a reasonable 3.4

 

[thesaadfather]

I like Saad as a player. However, it’s strange how some cap dumps involve sending a 1st as an enticement to take on a contract. Sometimes you see the draft pick going the other way to acquire the player. What makes this the latter and not the former?

If the Blackhawks are in a tight spot with their cap, why should the Avs give them a 1st to help them out?

It’s not the worst trade proposal that I’ve seen but it’s lacking in that if the Avs are helping the Blackhawks with their cap, that’s the benefit...and it’s enough. It shouldn’t also cost the 1st.

Yes, Saad is a much better player than Jost. However, the value of clearing up space for Chicago negates the need to also add the draft pick.

This isn’t a cap dump, it’s a cap clearing move. Those aren’t the same thing. A cap dump is a guy like Bickell, who is a bad player that nobody wants for free, so you have to add a pick. Saad, if traded, is a cap clearing move. We need to clear cap space for next year, he’s one of the guys that makes sense. However, he’s not a bad player, and teams would be interested in trading for him.

That said, your point doesn’t really hold up because the Hawks have other guys they could move to clear up cap space. Frankly, I’d much prefer trading or buying out Smith and de Haan/Maatta to trading Saad for cap space. If Saad is traded, it should be about maximizing return.

 

[HawkeyTalkMan]

Saad has only done that once in his career

Andreas Johnsson had 20g/43pts as a rookie and could be had for a reasonable 3.4

so you have ONE example? and Saad scored 31 before, 24 another time, 23 two other times, and had 21 goals this year which put him on pace for a 29 goal full season.

I think it's safe to label him a 25 goal scorer. regardless of haggling over what kind of goal producer level you want to pin him on, he's comfortably a mid 20s goal scorer who can play a power game with speed and plays 200 ft. and is a cup champion. not to mention nearly ALL his production comes 5v5. you want to go cheaper for another player at $4.5 mil that's fine, but nobody else really compares to Saad at that price

 

[LuLover96]

The truth is that it doesn't make much sense for the Avs to go all-in aside from loading up the bottom 6 a bit and maybe try to upgrade one of our goalies with the expansion draft coming up..

Avs already have the 3 Ds to protect (plus potentially a 4th with Timmins who is questionable both in his exemption status and health status) in Girard, Makar and EJ.
We also already have 5 forwards we probably will want to protect in Mac, Rants,Landy, Kadri and Burakovsky.

There is not much wiggle room here unless for a very short term upgrade and a quality #3 C (who for the love of god please is a complete stud on the PK).

So yeah. If you have a very high end #2/3 C with 3 years left on his contract, I am very willing to listen and put assets like #24 overall, Graves, Jost, Bowers, etc on the table.

Avs downfall was health and horrifyingly bad special teams (both PP and PK).


EDIT: Wrong thread but also fits here in a way.

Don't think Saad fits the bill here (maybe as a secondary move if he comes really, really cheap in exchange for a Jost and/or Zadorov/Graves). Strome also is not good enough defensively.

You can have Sutter

 

[John Mandalorian]

This isn’t a cap dump, it’s a cap clearing move. Those aren’t the same thing. A cap dump is a guy like Bickell, who is a bad player that nobody wants for free, so you have to add a pick. Saad, if traded, is a cap clearing move. We need to clear cap space for next year, he’s one of the guys that makes sense. However, he’s not a bad player, and teams would be interested in trading for him.

That said, your point doesn’t really hold up because the Hawks have other guys they could move to clear up cap space. Frankly, I’d much prefer trading or buying out Smith and de Haan/Maatta to trading Saad for cap space. If Saad is traded, it should be about maximizing return.

You’re arguing semantics and also going straw man. I already said I like Saad as a player. Glad we agree he’s a good player. I guess the only issue goes to your particular definition of a cap dump vs cap clearing. Sorry but I don’t see the point in taking issue with the terminology that I used. Honestly, I don’t care about the preferred euphemisms.

 

[thesaadfather]

You’re arguing semantics and also going straw man. I already said I like Saad as a player. Glad we agree he’s a good player. I guess the only issue goes to your particular definition of a cap dump vs cap clearing. Sorry but I don’t see the point in taking issue with the terminology that I used. Honestly, I don’t care about the preferred euphemisms.

Not sure where you think I did these things, but no, I didn’t. You said Saad was a cap dump, and then said that because he was, the Avs are doing the Hawks a favor by taking him on and thus shouldn’t have to pay for him. I’m just telling you that you’re wrong on both those points. I’m simply using different terms to describe two separate situations, because you assigned a term and definition to Saad that is inaccurate. I’m just trying to point out a mistake I think you’ve made in your post, I don’t really care what words you use.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Not sure where you think I did these things, but no, I didn’t. You said Saad was a cap dump, and then said that because he was, the Avs are doing the Hawks a favor by taking him on and thus shouldn’t have to pay for him. I’m just telling you that you’re wrong on both those points. I’m simply using different terms to describe two separate situations, because you assigned a term and definition to Saad that is inaccurate. I’m just trying to point out a mistake I think you’ve made in your post, I don’t really care what words you use.

I understand that you preferred that I was more euphemistic with my terminology. However, your desire for euphemism doesn’t make you correct.

 

[thesaadfather]

I understand that you preferred that I was more euphemistic with my terminology. However, your desire for euphemism doesn’t make you correct.

Just as your inability to argue the point doesn’t make you correct.

 

[HawkeyTalkMan]

Just as your inability to argue the point doesn’t make you correct.

hf boards is prime example of numerous individuals of confusing cap dump and cap casualty and confusing the two.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Delete

 

[Mrfenn92]

Saad is a 20g/40pt 3rd liner making 6. this would be a bad deal for the avs

Lol

 

[Sinbad]

Saad is a $6m ~45 point player. Even with 25% retention, he's still $4.5m, and a UFA after next season. So, he's expensive, and not a long term solution. With the flat cap, there's an idea floating around that a lot of teams will be sellers, and there won't be very many buyers, giving a team with a bunch of cap space and a deep prospect pool to pull off some deals that could plausibly return someone younger/cheaper/better than Saad.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Sakic gets that kind of player without giving up our 1st or Jost. What did we pay for Burakovsky? A 2nd, 3rd and a nobody AHLer? What did we pay for Grubauer? A 2nd and Orpik's buyout? That's where Sakic likes to shop.

Saad is also a very good defensive forward who can move up and down a line up when needed, can be used to match up against other teams top lines and is a solid PKer, but go ahead and focus on just the offensive part of the game.

 

[Richard88]

Financial ramifications? In 2019, the Hawks were ranked 4th in valuation and revenue. Avs were 22nd. If anyone can weather a lockdown its the Hawks.

You've completely missed the point. The implication from Richard was that there would be financial ramifications of the lockdown for the Hawks owner so they should consider dealing away players at lesser value. Yet, the Hawks are one of the more healthy teams financially. This has nothing to do with the health of the Avs franchise, which i am sure is in good financial condition.

My comment was more about NHL owners in general rather than singling out the Hawks owner specifically, apologies if I wasn't clear.

There's been rumblings the last few days in the media about teams operating with internal budgets (Buffalo and Pittsburgh to name two), and with ticket revenues being low (or non-existent) many teams are going to want to be move salaries, and that will lower the value of players with big AAV's.

 

[Richard88]

so you have ONE example? and Saad scored 31 before, 24 another time, 23 two other times, and had 21 goals this year which put him on pace for a 29 goal full season.

I think it's safe to label him a 25 goal scorer. regardless of haggling over what kind of goal producer level you want to pin him on, he's comfortably a mid 20s goal scorer who can play a power game with speed and plays 200 ft. and is a cup champion. not to mention nearly ALL his production comes 5v5. you want to go cheaper for another player at $4.5 mil that's fine, but nobody else really compares to Saad at that price

I'd say that Killorn and Palat would be reasonably comparable players who could be gettable for less than a 1st round pick.

Granted, Saad is a better player than Killorn, but if the difference in price between the two at the same caphit is a 1st + Jost for Saad VS 2nd + 3rd for Killorn for example, then it's a pretty easy decision to go with Killorn. Not least because he's not a rental like Saad.