"Checking" Lines Which Provided The Best/Most Offense

[Jim MacDonald]

Hi everyone!

As always I hope all of you are doing well and staying healthy.

At work today I thought of this one to get educated on. Being a Wings fan here I obviously became very familiar with our "Grind Line" of Maltby-Draper-McCarty/Kocur. In a "historical" sense though, I honestly don't know how their production would compare against other "checking" lines that could provide offense.

Did any of the dynasties (70's Habs, 80's Islanders, 80's Oilers and others) happen to have a checking line that provided some "surprisingly" good offense upon review of the numbers? I'd welcome knowledge as well of course of other teams not considered dynasties whose "checking" lines but up good offense (it would be cool to learn if the Devils' "crash line" had some good offensive numbers in hindsight for example).

I hope for a good, stimulating thread as always! Thanks-Jim

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[vadim sharifijanov]

i think ramsay - luce - gare is the classic answer

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

the first dynasty checking lines that come to mind for me are gainey - jarvis - roberts on the 70s habs and marcotte - sanderson - westfall on the bruins

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

i think ramsay - luce - gare is the classic answer

That was a great line.

But I never thought of them as a checking line.

 

[Cricket Green]

Peluso/Holik/McKay

 

[pbgoalie]

During our Stanley cup run

pahlssen Moen Neidermeyer

were amazing and scored some very important goals

 

[Jumptheshark]

i think ramsay - luce - gare is the classic answer

I thought that was the 2nd line for the sabres

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

That was a great line.

But I never thought of them as a checking line.

I thought that was the 2nd line for the sabres

i guess it depends on the definition of checking line. they were before my time so i have no firsthand knowledge, but i guess my thinking is if a checking line is usually the third (e.g., moen/pahlsson/niedermayer, thornton/ricci/sundstrom, basically any line carbonneau was ever on) or fourth line (e.g., crash line, grind line), then why can't it also be the second in rare cases?

my guess is those sabres teams must have used ramsay/luce to matchup against other teams' top lines right?

 

[Johnny Engine]

i guess it depends on the definition of checking line. they were before my time so i have no firsthand knowledge, but i guess my thinking is if a checking line is usually the third (e.g., moen/pahlsson/niedermayer, thornton/ricci/sundstrom, basically any line carbonneau was ever on) or fourth line (e.g., crash line, grind line), then why can't it also be the second in rare cases?

For that matter, Pahlsson, Moen and Niedermayer were 3rd, 4th and 5th in ES icetime/GP among Ducks forwards in the 2007 playoffs, while Getzlaf, Perry and Penner were 7th, 8th and 9th...I get the sense that the connection between 3rd lines and checking lines is self-confirming a lot of the time - you see 2 middle six lines and one scores a bunch and the other is all grindy, the latter must be the third line.

What would you say were the main roles for the lines on the Canucks before Malhotra got there? I sort of fuzzily remember a third line behind Kesler that had guys like Demitra and Wellwood on it.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

For the 2011 Cup win, the Bruins had a force of a third line that made the difference.

Ryder - Kelly - Peverley

Combined they had 17-25-42 and a +25 in the playoffs

Ryder: 8-9-17, +8
Kelly: 5-8-13, +11
Peverley: 4-8-12, +6

 

[NyQuil]

For that matter, Pahlsson, Moen and Niedermayer were 3rd, 4th and 5th in ES icetime/GP among Ducks forwards in the 2007 playoffs, while Getzlaf, Perry and Penner were 7th, 8th and 9th...I get the sense that the connection between 3rd lines and checking lines is self-confirming a lot of the time - you see 2 middle six lines and one scores a bunch and the other is all grindy, the latter must be the third line.

A good checking line should be matched up against the opposition's top line so it makes sense.

Ultimately that 2nd line may get less ES time but likely personnel will be on one of the PP units.

For my part, I never really thought of line numbering in terms of icetime but really more about responsibility.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

For that matter, Pahlsson, Moen and Niedermayer were 3rd, 4th and 5th in ES icetime/GP among Ducks forwards in the 2007 playoffs, while Getzlaf, Perry and Penner were 7th, 8th and 9th...I get the sense that the connection between 3rd lines and checking lines is self-confirming a lot of the time - you see 2 middle six lines and one scores a bunch and the other is all grindy, the latter must be the third line.

What would you say were the main roles for the lines on the Canucks before Malhotra got there? I sort of fuzzily remember a third line behind Kesler that had guys like Demitra and Wellwood on it.

the pre-malhotra years were really volatile, because kesler and burrows' roles changed so much from 2008 to 2010. but here goes:

2008 - checking was line burrows - kesler - cooke, possibly the most annoying line i've ever seen. cooke was traded at the deadline for matt pettinger for no good reason. first two lines were naslund/morrison and the sedins, with revolving RWs including cooke sometimes on naslund's line.

2009 - for the first half of the year, the checking line was burrows - kesler - hansen, which was maybe the greatest canucks checking line ever. but then burrows got put on the sedin line and when sundin came, they put him between demitra and kesler. ultimately, kesler's line took on defensive matchups, but the third line of wellwood between some combo of raymond, pyatt, and hansen could hold its own. for a small, slow guy, wellwood was surprisingly solid defensively, because he was incredibly smart.

2010 - burrows is still on the sedin line, kesler between raymond and samuelsson took on the tough matchups. but when things got real, AV would move samuelsson up with the sedins and reunite kesler and burrows, usually with raymond iirc. third line was usually demitra - wellwood - bernier.

all to say, there was never a sheltered scoring third line, in the sense of buffalo hiding vanek/roy/afinogenov behind briere's and drury's lines once upon a time, because raymond, bernier, wellwood, pyatt, and especially hansen were all competent-to-good defensive players. but the third line was also definitely not the matchup line until malhotra got there.

 

[ESH]

For the 2011 Cup win, the Bruins had a force of a third line that made the difference.

Ryder - Kelly - Peverley

Combined they had 17-25-42 and a +25 in the playoffs

Ryder: 8-9-17, +8
Kelly: 5-8-13, +11
Peverley: 4-8-12, +6

I wouldn’t really call that a checking line though, more like scoring third line.

Marchand - Bergeron - Recchi were the match-up line for other teams top lines.

 

[Bondurant]

Hi everyone!

As always I hope all of you are doing well and staying healthy.

At work today I thought of this one to get educated on. Being a Wings fan here I obviously became very familiar with our "Grind Line" of Maltby-Draper-McCarty/Kocur. In a "historical" sense though, I honestly don't know how their production would compare against other "checking" lines that could provide offense.

Did any of the dynasties (70's Habs, 80's Islanders, 80's Oilers and others) happen to have a checking line that provided some "surprisingly" good offense upon review of the numbers? I'd welcome knowledge as well of course of other teams not considered dynasties whose "checking" lines but up good offense (it would be cool to learn if the Devils' "crash line" had some good offensive numbers in hindsight for example).

I hope for a good, stimulating thread as always! Thanks-Jim

One of my life's regrets is not owning a Grind Line t-shirt with the caricatures.

 

[Jim MacDonald]

i think ramsay - luce - gare is the classic answer

If you don't mind expanding Vadim....as to Gare I'm assuming is this in reference to Danny Gare, best known as a Buffalo Sabre? And was this line the checking line during the Sabres' 70's, the "French Connection" years. Thanks in advance for educating this 42 year old guy who didn't become fully "in love" with hockey until around 1995!

 

[Jim MacDonald]

For the 2011 Cup win, the Bruins had a force of a third line that made the difference.

Ryder - Kelly - Peverley

Combined they had 17-25-42 and a +25 in the playoffs

Ryder: 8-9-17, +8
Kelly: 5-8-13, +11
Peverley: 4-8-12, +6

Very very interesting....wow! The passage of time has made me forget, but I wonder if Claude Julien used this line the most against the Sedin line....If memory serves me right, the Sedins were shut down pretty bad in the 2011 finals.

 

[Jim MacDonald]

One of my life's regrets is not owning a Grind Line t-shirt with the caricatures.

I want to say Bondurant that a shirt exists that actually has all four of the guys' caricatures on them....I can see it in my "mind's eye" so to speak.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Very very interesting....wow! The passage of time has made me forget, but I wonder if Claude Julien used this line the most against the Sedin line....If memory serves me right, the Sedins were shut down pretty bad in the 2011 finals.

The Sedins got a heavy diet of Bergeron-Marchand and the Chara-Seidenberg pair

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Very very interesting....wow! The passage of time has made me forget, but I wonder if Claude Julien used this line the most against the Sedin line....If memory serves me right, the Sedins were shut down pretty bad in the 2011 finals.

I don't recall any of those players bitch-slapping a Sedin. (As Marchand did)

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Similar to how 07 Anaheim’s checking line was essentially their 2nd line in terms of minutes, Detroit’s Grind line also played 2nd line minutes during their 02 playoff run. I’d imagine that be the case for most elite checking/energy lines where they outgrow 3rd/4th line minutes.

But if we define a checking line simply as the line that the coach strategically matches against the opposing top lines, then obviously your elite 2-way lines would provide significantly more offense than your stereotypical checking line. The Datsyuk/Zetterberg, Toews/Hossa, and Bergeron/Marchand lines are all fairly recent examples of those. But I don’t think that’s what the OP is looking for. Kind of similar to the #2 defencemen thread in that you quickly get into semantics.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

If you don't mind expanding Vadim....as to Gare I'm assuming is this in reference to Danny Gare, best known as a Buffalo Sabre? And was this line the checking line during the Sabres' 70's, the "French Connection" years. Thanks in advance for educating this 42 year old guy who didn't become fully "in love" with hockey until around 1995!

they were before my time too,but here are some nuggets from joe pelletier—

In Buffalo Luce would develop into one of the best defensive centers and penalty killers of his era. Luce, who only missed 14 games in a decade of service with the Sabres, would often work with equally reliable left winger Craig Ramsay and sniper Danny Gare to form one of the best checking lines of the 1970s. The Sabres had perhaps the best #1 line and best #2 line in the entire league.

Ramsay didn't have a great amount of natural ability. He wasn't very fast and wasn't a great stickhandler or shooter by NHL standards. But he was a smart player who worked hard. He was an intense competitor who did a lot of hard work that went unnoticed by the average fan but to his teammates he was invaluable. Craig showed up night after night shutting down the opposition. You didn't see Ramsay make many mistakes

At one point Ramsay had the 4th longest consecutive game streak in NHL history. He played 776 straight games between 1973 and 1983. Also worth noting is that he only had 201 PIMs in 1070 regular season games, and he was also a +328 during his career. Never in a single season was Ramsay a minus player during his 14-year career, which is quite remarkable given the fact that he was matched against the oppositions star players on most nights.

Often paired on a dynamite line with Don Luce and Danny Gare, Ramsay was noticed throughout the league. For his fine defensive play Craig was awarded with the Selke Trophy in 1985. He also finished as the runner-up for the Selke Trophy on three other occasions. He was also selected to play in the 1976 All-Star game.

It is unfortunate that the NHL did not award a trophy for best defensive forward until 1978, as Luce likely would have won the trophy at least in 1974-75, if not in other years.

Gare blossomed in his second NHL season. Despite playing on what was widely regarded as a checking line with Don Luce and Craig Ramsey, Gare scored a hat trick in the final game of the season to give him a team leading 50 goals.

"I think one of the biggest memories I have is obviously being a young player in my second year here and playing on a checking line with Done Luce and Craig Ramsay. We were a checking line and we always played against the top lines."​

also, check out this wonderful old SI article from the late 70s on role players — SHADOWERS, SNIPERS AND SUPERPESTS

little profiles on gainey, jarvis, luce and ramsay, gary dornhoefer, terry o’reilly, tiger williams, and... mike bossy and stefan persson

 

[Davenport]

The Rangers - while Emile Francis was in charge - had the Bulldog Line with Walt Tkaczuk between Dave Balon and Bill Fairbairn, and the third line had Pete Stemkowski between Ted Irvine and Bruce MacGregor. Don't recall which line went out against the other team's top line. I know that job did not go to the GAG Line.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

For the 2011 Cup win, the Bruins had a force of a third line that made the difference.

Ryder - Kelly - Peverley

Combined they had 17-25-42 and a +25 in the playoffs

Ryder: 8-9-17, +8
Kelly: 5-8-13, +11
Peverley: 4-8-12, +6

I wouldn’t really call that a checking line though, more like scoring third line.

I recall that line was very much talked about at the time, particularly during the bloodbath that was games 3,4,6 where the Bruins would get the puck deep and send the forwards crashing in on the canucks defence.

If my memory serves me correctly, that line and the 4th were ahead of their time by being very fast and physical before the whole speed revolution had happened

The Rangers - while Emile Francis was in charge - had the Bulldog Line with Walt Tkaczuk between Dave Balon and Bill Fairbairn, and the third line had Pete Stemkowski between Ted Irvine and Bruce MacGregor. Don't recall which line went out against the other team's top line. I know that job did not go to the GAG Line.

When I watched the 1974 Rangers-Flyers G7 a few months back I recall Tkaczuk stood out as very effective

 

[Jim MacDonald]

they were before my time too,but here are some nuggets from joe pelletier—

In Buffalo Luce would develop into one of the best defensive centers and penalty killers of his era. Luce, who only missed 14 games in a decade of service with the Sabres, would often work with equally reliable left winger Craig Ramsay and sniper Danny Gare to form one of the best checking lines of the 1970s. The Sabres had perhaps the best #1 line and best #2 line in the entire league.

Ramsay didn't have a great amount of natural ability. He wasn't very fast and wasn't a great stickhandler or shooter by NHL standards. But he was a smart player who worked hard. He was an intense competitor who did a lot of hard work that went unnoticed by the average fan but to his teammates he was invaluable. Craig showed up night after night shutting down the opposition. You didn't see Ramsay make many mistakes

At one point Ramsay had the 4th longest consecutive game streak in NHL history. He played 776 straight games between 1973 and 1983. Also worth noting is that he only had 201 PIMs in 1070 regular season games, and he was also a +328 during his career. Never in a single season was Ramsay a minus player during his 14-year career, which is quite remarkable given the fact that he was matched against the oppositions star players on most nights.

Often paired on a dynamite line with Don Luce and Danny Gare, Ramsay was noticed throughout the league. For his fine defensive play Craig was awarded with the Selke Trophy in 1985. He also finished as the runner-up for the Selke Trophy on three other occasions. He was also selected to play in the 1976 All-Star game.

It is unfortunate that the NHL did not award a trophy for best defensive forward until 1978, as Luce likely would have won the trophy at least in 1974-75, if not in other years.

Gare blossomed in his second NHL season. Despite playing on what was widely regarded as a checking line with Don Luce and Craig Ramsey, Gare scored a hat trick in the final game of the season to give him a team leading 50 goals.

"I think one of the biggest memories I have is obviously being a young player in my second year here and playing on a checking line with Done Luce and Craig Ramsay. We were a checking line and we always played against the top lines."​

also, check out this wonderful old SI article from the late 70s on role players — SHADOWERS, SNIPERS AND SUPERPESTS

little profiles on gainey, jarvis, luce and ramsay, gary dornhoefer, terry o’reilly, tiger williams, and... mike bossy and stefan persson

Thank you thank you

 

[Jim MacDonald]

The Datsyuk/Zetterberg, Toews/Hossa, and Bergeron/Marchand lines are all fairly recent examples of those. But I don’t think that’s what the OP is looking for. Kind of similar to the #2 defencemen thread in that you quickly get into semantics.

You hit the nail on the head Silky, and it is a GREAT point. I wasn't really thinking of 2-way solid monsters...although of course that's who you would want out there in certain situations of course! The Grind Line comparables are the "meat and potatoes" of what I was thinking....