Checkers V: Macgregor Kilpatrick Trophy Edition

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WreckingCrew

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I'll counter that question with a question: why did the Knights buy the San Antonio Rampage?
That's a damn good question...do other NHL teams own AHL teams? Hard info on who does, but it actually looks like half the AHL teams are owned by someone in their NHL ownership group? It wouldn't surprise me in the future if all NHL teams owned their AHL team in some capacity, but it also makes sense not to require it because some teams struggle as is with turning a profit. Plus some AHL teams (Hershey, Chicago) are fiercely independent. So I retract my contract question lol They just have to operate as separate entities until all NHL teams own AHL teams?
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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Here's the thing: this move seems really stupid. And Dundon is many things -- unconventional, hyper-competitive, "cheap", huge ego, maybe psychopathic. But to this point he hasn't demonstrated himself to be stupid.

So it's possible that this is a terrible mistake, and that this is nothing more than a dick measuring contest. But he/the Borg have obviously got some plan that justifies this risk, in their minds. I'm just speculating as to what that plan might be.
it's not a popular move, but what were the options left once St. Louis was bought out of the agreement in SA, THE PAST relationship between the two in Rosemont is untenable..... Florida isn't a better option for them either once St. Louis landed Springfield, and then there's the rule that forces each team to be affiliated to be an active franchise..... more and more teams as Seattle comes aboard are going the owner/operation/affiliate plan than the independent ownership which has changed dramatically the last 6-7 years....
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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That's a damn good question...do other NHL teams own AHL teams? Hard info on who does, but it actually looks like half the AHL teams are owned by someone in their NHL ownership group? It wouldn't surprise me in the future if all NHL teams owned their AHL team in some capacity, but it also makes sense not to require it because some teams struggle as is with turning a profit. Plus some AHL teams (Hershey, Chicago) are fiercely independent. So I retract my contract question lol They just have to operate as separate entities until all NHL teams own AHL teams?
16 of the 32 are in some form owned outright or have close ties to the parent club, once Seattle and Palm Springs start up..... the reason you're not seeing any relocation talks around Hershey is that franchise is governed by a trust decreed from the the founder of the city, Milton Hershey, rather than the traditional independent ownerships you see elsewhere... then there's the leases similar to what the Checkers did leaving the arena they shared to return to the Coliseum, so in essence, Hershey cannot be sold for relocation or bought by an outside interest for said purpose because the trust has all rights to the operation.... Chicago likely will eventually be sold and not controlled by the current ownership if Levin goes away such as what occurred to Portland in 1997, as our founder suddenly passed, and the rights transferred to a family trust, and then to the group that operated them and how that transpired with a CEO/CFO, type of business structure
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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Right. It feels like there are more shoes dropping. We just don't know what they are yet.
then again, that could change, you don''t know where the Checkers may be in a year, or sign a longer term PDC with whomever that team that's coming in, whether it's Florida or someone else, just as you saw Springfield do a 5 year, which is approximately the average length of an existing contract with another set of out clauses
 
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Navin R Slavin

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I wonder if it was as simple as Dundon saying "owning our affiliate is the right model, sell to us" and Kahn saying "nope" and Dundon saying "ok, next AHL team available for sale becomes the Greensboro Gales, good luck being the bastard stepchild of Carolina hockey."

Pure speculation, of course, but at least that scenario makes some sense.
 

go comets

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I wonder if it was as simple as Dundon saying "owning our affiliate is the right model, sell to us" and Kahn saying "nope" and Dundon saying "ok, next AHL team available for sale becomes the Greensboro Gales, good luck being the bastard stepchild of Carolina hockey."

Pure speculation, of course, but at least that scenario makes some sense.

I really don't see Dundon wanting to spend millions on a AHL team a year after buying the Canes....
 

bleedgreen

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This is a good discussion to have and I've been thinking about this for a while. It's hard to compare JR (in Carolina), Francis and Waddell, simply because JR and Francis had Karmanos's shallow pockets vs. Waddell having Dundon's deep pockets, and that is a big piece of the behavior, so I'll ignore the JR/Francis era and just look at this current group.

After some thought, I do believe that the new regime is concerned with development, but not in the traditional way I think of drafting and developing. For me, drafting and developing meant a model where you draft guys, let them marinate at a lower level, and as guys at the NHL level get older, want too much money, or leave as UFAs, you have a crop of guys in the system to fill in, even if it's depth and someone else on the NHL squad moves up the food chain. I DON'T think the current regime is concerned about that type of development overall.

This is my view (which admittedly could be off). First, I think the current regime looks at drafted/developed players as currency, as much as they do as a guy that can step in down the road, particularly if the guy isn't viewed as a top end guy (Aho, Svech, Necas, etc..). I think they want lots of draft picks to keep refilling the pipeline, and if some of those develop/project to be high end enough, they keep them and promote from within in a traditional draft/development sense. If they feel they top out as low end - middling players (Wallmark, Roy, Gauthier, Saarela, Carrick, etc...), they view them more as currency in a trade more than as a guy they want at the NHL, because they probably feel they can get that type of guy anywhere.

Look at Nic Roy. He was developing nicely, but he looked to be maybe a 4th line C, 3rd line tops in the most optimistic projection. Canes moved him to get Haula. Canes then moved Haula, Wallmark (4th rounder 3rd/4th line C), Luostarenen (2nd rounder who looks like tops out as a bottom 6 player), and Priskie (who was free) for Vincent Trochek. Now, Trochek post injury isn't what he used to be (although in the AMA I was told he said he is still recovering), but a year ago, if anyone would have proposed Roy, Wallmark and Luostarinen for Trocheck, they'd have been accused of making the worst proposal on HF and be told "3 nickels for a quarter" (or some analogy like that)...but that's essentially what the Canes did. If Trocheck never recovers his game to what it was, it's still an OK trade (provided they can work the salary cap), but if he does recover his game, it could be phenomenal.

I also think this regime isn't afraid of taking high risk, high reward chances.
  • de Hann was coming off a bad shoulder injury in which he missed the a ton of time when the Canes signed him.
  • Gardiner, the same, injuries are why he was still around.
  • Trocheck is another case of a guy that has a high reward if he recovers/recovers his game.
  • Haula was coming off a horrible injury and the Canes took a chance on it.
  • Vatanen (albeit a rental), might not even suit up for Carolina due to injury
  • Skjei struggled the last couple of years in NY.

etc... Some of those were no brainers, some of them could backfire, some could work out nicely, but it seems they aren't afraid of more high risk/high reward type moves. Even Dougie/Ferland for Hanifin/Lindholm falls a bit into that category. Ferland had concussion problems and was a UFA in a year. Hamilton had a bad rap and was onto his 3rd team so giving up two, young, cost controlled 5th OA picks is a high risk move. In fairness, it's a lot easier to make high risk/reward moves when the money is there to do it. The two "kinda" high risk/reward moves JR made (T. Kaberle , A. Semin) backfired and Karmanos came right out and said "never again".

Anyhow, TLDR, I do think they value developing, but not in the traditional sense I'm accustomed to.
I agree with all that, especially the part where they see the picks and prospects as currency maybe more than other regimes have. I think this is pretty accurate so far, and we'll see how well they keep the balance between too many or few prospects. They've mostly been dealing from the pool they acquired. There's not a ton left there, and the prospects they themselves have drafted will need to start filling the gaps in the AHL.
 
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emptyNedder

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But to this point he hasn't demonstrated himself to be stupid.
Stupid is too strong a word—but he isn't so smart he doesn't succumb to Dunning/Kruger.
"He knows exactly what he is doing" was the argument when he put up $100 million for the football league. It was nearly unanimous here that he was buying the stats/gaming app. He was "too smart" to make a nearly worthless investment.
 
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My Special Purpose

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Why do so many of the club’s moves often have such a shady and tacky tone to them? Why do we rarely control the message? It’s no wonder the rest of the league thinks we are broke as a joke.

All of the One Carolina tweets and promotions are looking less than authentic. Not sure they realize how many in NC take their fandoms to heart.

This is what it looks like when you refuse to do things the way they've always been done, simply because that's the way they've always been done.

I know this doesn't look great, and it doesn't really appear to make sense to me, either. But you have to know there's *something* going on that we're not privy to. Maybe Checkers management realizes they are basically the perfect minor-league affiliate for the Hurricanes and they are trying to jack up the affiliation fee. They have to know it will be very hard for the Canes to find anything else so ideal, so maybe they're using that as leverage.

All I know is if they were the Carolina Checkers, this wouldn't be happening.
 
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emptyNedder

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but then they started ramping up, getting a groove, then BOOM around TDL...lose Goat, Luos, Priskie, Kooks, Claesson, only got back Keane in return...running towards the end of the year and it's half an ECHL team. I didn't like it, but I also realize that's life as a minor league AHL affiliate. But I can understand Kahn maybe taking offense to it (especially since there seemed to be talk of the Canes searching for minor moves to help the Checkers as well that never came about)...kinda killed our playoff run momentum.

This doesn't fit the timeline. Because the first report that Carolina was talking with Chicago was February 11, one week before Gauthier was traded and 13 days before Luostarinen, Priskie, Kuokkanen, and Claesson were traded.
 

Navin R Slavin

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Stupid is too strong a word—but he isn't so smart he doesn't succumb to Dunning/Kruger.
"He knows exactly what he is doing" was the argument when he put up $100 million for the football league. It was nearly unanimous here that he was buying the stats/gaming app. He was "too smart" to make a nearly worthless investment.

A couple of points here:

1. He almost certainly was buying the sports app, or thought he was. The AAF was funded like a technology company, which the records of the time clearly demonstrated. In the subsequent bankruptcy proceedings, the app was the only thing of any value, and MGM bought the remaining assets for $2m.

2. Not all risks pay off. It doesn't mean that he was stupid for making the investment. In the end he lost $70m, which hurts I'm sure, but to a billionaire that's a year's return or less. Plenty of technology startups get big investments and end up returning a goose egg to investors; I've personally been involved in two of them.

Those points aside, you're 100% right that Dundon was in over his head, and he paid for it.

I'm not saying he's infallible. I am saying that he takes risks, and makes decisions for which the surface reasoning is not obvious. The AAF example, if anything, strengthens that point.

I'm also not saying that dumping the Checkers is a good thing. It certainly doesn't look like it right now. I'm saying there's certainly a rationale, and the Borg thinks the maneuver is worth the risk. We just don't know what the maneuver actually is.

"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever." --Nigel Tufnel
 
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hblueridgegal

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They sell a good story to engage fans and go all in on the hype and (overly at times) promote to get buy-in, sell tix, merch, etc. but aren't quite so good at the walk back when a situation goes south or they make a trade. Leaving fans in the dark about the why - resulting in confusion and anger. Eventually, that may cost them. I am not sure why they'd want to abandon or alienate fans in the largest city in the state populated with transplants. Who may like or understand hockey more so than NC natives.

Business is business but they could message some of their actions and image better. I wonder how local businesses and companies interact with them now with the newer mgt? Back in the day, two of my former employers had a couple of corporate boxes and tons of seats for hospitality, team building and schmoozing clients. It was great fun and good for business.
 

Discipline Daddy

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"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever." --Nigel Tufnel

I just wanted to add that you have quoted my favorite line from my second favorite movie of all time. This quote so perfectly sums up the movie. It's wonderfully cheeky because it is, I feel, spoken from the actor (Christopher Guest) just as much as it is spoken naively by the character (Nigel).

"We're lucky"
"Yeah"
"I mean people should be envying us, you know"
"Yeah"
"I do"
"I do too"
 
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Navin R Slavin

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I just wanted to add that you have quoted my favorite line from my second favorite movie of all time. This quote so perfectly sums up the movie. It's wonderfully cheeky because it is, I feel, spoken from the actor (Christopher Guest) just as much as it is spoken naively by the character (Nigel).

"We're lucky"
"Yeah"
"I mean people should be envying us, you know"
"Yeah"
"I do"
"I do too"

I just want to say, "Saucy Jack", when they got around to doing it, was f***ing brilliant and should have, in fact, been a musical.

They were so underrated as actual songwriters and musicians. Rhyming "gov'nor" and "shov'n her" is just ludicrous and brilliant.

I watched this movie around 200 times, and there was a time when I knew every line by heart from start to finish.

 
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WreckingCrew

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I just want to say, "Saucy Jack", when they got around to doing it, was f***ing brilliant and should have, in fact, been a musical.

They were so underrated as actual songwriters and musicians. Rhyming "gov'nor" and "shov'n her" is just ludicrous and brilliant.

I watched this movie around 200 times, and there was a time when I knew every line by heart from start to finish.



Indeed, Navin. It is a perfect comedy movie. I will fight anyone on this. I love all Christopher Guest movies, but this is as good as it gets. I haven't seen a funnier movie before.
I think what makes it so great is that while it's a spoof...it's also very much NOT a spoof. Rob Halford I remember in an interview once talking about how things like getting lost backstage, not getting paid after a gig, announcing the wrong city, stage prop malfunctions, etc have happened to many bands especially in their early/formative years.
 
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UncMike

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Since Vegas left Chicago, my assumption is that their new AHL team will join the pacific.....will the Wolves(new Car affiliate) slot into alignment where the Checkers were or keep their spot in the central
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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So back on April 29th, Luke said it could be announced in a week. Has anything official been announced re: the Canes switching to Chicago?
 
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DaveG

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So back on April 29th, Luke said it could be announced in a week. Has anything official been announced re: the Canes switching to Chicago?
Nope, wouldn't surprise me if this whole thing got Carolina and Charlotte talking a bit again about the whole thing. Also wouldn't be shocked if something is announced shortly with the cancellation of the rest of the AHL season
 
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A Star is Burns

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Didn't they say it might come around the BOG meeting? That was Friday I think, so probably still within that timeframe given the more important cancelling of the season decisions.
 
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CHRDANHUTCH

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Nope, wouldn't surprise me if this whole thing got Carolina and Charlotte talking a bit again about the while thing. Also wouldn't be shocked if something is announced shortly with the cancellation of the rest of the AHL season
THE ONLY thing that was confirmed is the transfer of San Antonio to the Orleans, then Henderson, NV WHENEVER the season does return... also no word on Florida's prospects, either
 
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