Checkers V: Macgregor Kilpatrick Trophy Edition

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spockBokk

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Anyone else nervous that Bean or Goat or Geekie might get traded for short-term help? Just me? Okay carry on.

I'm not that nervous about them moving Geekie. I like Geekie, but I'm not sure he has an NHL future. It'd be great for him to make me look like a fool for saying that though. His size and right-handedness would be great for CAR down the middle.

I wouldn't be too surprised if they dealt Gauthier, although I don't think it's likely. He's still on his ELC and there is no other player like him in the system. He's NHL ready and cheap. I think he's easily in the Canes top 9 next year.

I'd surprised if they moved Bean. I'll caveat that by saying I could see him as part of a package for a D like Dumba, but I don't think CAR would include the extra assets to acquire a player like that, at least not at the deadline. Similar to Gauthier, I think Bean is NHL ready and will be eased onto the 3rd pair next season and run the 2nd PP unit.

I'm more so nervous they make a panic move in moving a guy like Suzuki or their own 1st which could end up lottery.
 

TheReelChuckFletcher

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At some point, you do have to wonder what the Canes are thinking on Bean and Gauthier. It seems that everybody around the league considers these guys NHL players, so if we don't, it only makes sense to trade them.

I believe the FO thinks of both of them as great prospects who will need to earn their way into the league, just like Necas did. I see them both winning jobs the old-fashioned way, at training camp this September.

Watching the tape from this year versus last year, both have taken huge steps up in their game in Charlotte. Gauthier was always a pretty sound forward from a defensive perspective, but his offense at the time was lacking for a 1st round selection. That has changed this year; he's really figured out how to take his muscular 6'4" frame, tilt his shoulder, and bully defenders to the slot. At the AHL level, it's been cartoonishly effective, especially in recent months. As far as Bean is concerned, the most impressive thing that I've seen from him is how he is learning to use his speed and his stick effectively in odd-man rushes. There have been a few moments that I've seen in Charlotte games where I've gotten some Slavin flashbacks. I'm not saying that they're the same player, and Bean is doing it at a league one tier below the NHL, but it's interesting to see how much calmer and steadier his defensive play has become over the past couple of months.
 
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hblueridgegal

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At some point, you do have to wonder what the Canes are thinking on Bean and Gauthier. It seems that everybody around the league considers these guys NHL players, so if we don't, it only makes sense to trade them.
I agree. These guys appear to be coveted elsewhere. It is perplexing to witness especially after watching so many other teams give their young talent opportunities to prove themselves on the big stage - albeit out of necessity or ingenuity. Yet, we sit on our hands as the clock winds down.

Also, our early season penny pinching and refusal to call players up may have cost us some much needed points that we could use right about now.

Given some of the miscues with our current roster and our attempts to shoehorn people into roles where they don't really fit all that well, it kind of makes one wonder if they are as clever or as on point as they think they are about talent management. I feel for the players in this situation.
 
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TheReelChuckFletcher

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I agree. These guys appear to be coveted elsewhere. It is perplexing to witness especially after watching so many other teams give their young talent opportunities to prove themselves on the big stage - albeit out of necessity or ingenuity. Yet, we sit on our hands as the clock winds down.

Also, our early season penny pinching and refusal to call players up may have cost us some much needed points that we could use right about now.

Given some of the miscues with our current roster and our attempts to shoehorn people into positions where they don't really fit all that well, it kind of makes one wonder if they are as clever or as on point as they think they are about talent management. I feel for the players in this situation.

I don't really agree with this: I believe that this extra time in Charlotte for Bean and Gauthier is going to be quite beneficial for them in the long run. In Gauthier's case, especially, his offensive skills last year were quite rudimentary and he didn't quite dominate his AHL peers completely enough for me to be super-comfortable with him in a 2nd or 3rd line spot in the NHL. Next season, however, is a completely different story, as is the case with Bean's defensive game.
 

My Special Purpose

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I don't really agree with this: I believe that this extra time in Charlotte for Bean and Gauthier is going to be quite beneficial for them in the long run. In Gauthier's case, especially, his offensive skills last year were quite rudimentary and he didn't quite dominate his AHL peers completely enough for me to be super-comfortable with him in a 2nd or 3rd line spot in the NHL. Next season, however, is a completely different story, as is the case with Bean's defensive game.

It's not last season versus next season, though. It's about *right now*.

And RIGHT NOW, the Canes are overslotting TvR by two lines while relying on three left-shot defensemen who are all huge liabilities, and struggling to score goals outside of the top line. It would seem to me that *right now* these two very specific players could be helping the NHL club get points. If the Canes don't think that's the case, there appear to be other teams that do, and perhaps it would make sense to trade them.

But I find it very hard to believe that Bean and Gauthier will be ready to step into major roles next season, but they aren't ready right now. There's 2-3 months of games between now and training camp. Bring them up.
 

hblueridgegal

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I don't really agree with this:

Perhaps but weren't there complaints last summer and in the early fall about how prospects are being treated as far as their opportunities (lost) for advancement? Maybe it's how they are delivering the message.

Kvetching about how players let the team down and do not show up for work while not really doing much to alter the situation after months of the same result is interesting strategy to me. It's like Roy and hoarding his timeouts...sometimes you really need to take one and stop the bleeding .. having them all at the end won't really matter if the moment's already lost.
 
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My Special Purpose

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Kvetching about how players let the team down and do not show up for work while not really doing much to alter the situation after months of the same result is interesting strategy to me.

This is exactly it. We keep running Nino, McGinn, Dzingel, Gardiner, Edmundson, Wallmark, Staal, Foegele, etc. out there every night without repercussions, watch them hack and whack and do twirls, then complain about a lack of effort. How exactly are we trying to get different results? By doing the same thing over and over?
 

SvechneJerk

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Perhaps but weren't there complaints last summer and in the early fall about how prospects are being treated as far as their opportunities (lost) for advancement? Maybe it's how they are delivering the message.

Kvetching about how players let the team down and do not show up for work while not really doing much to alter the situation after months of the same result is interesting strategy to me. It's like Roy and hoarding his timeouts...sometimes you really need to take one and stop the bleeding .. having them all at the end won't really matter if the moment's already lost.

This is exactly it. We keep running Nino, McGinn, Dzingel, Gardiner, Edmundson, Wallmark, Staal, Foegele, etc. out there every night without repercussions, watch them hack and whack and do twirls, then complain about a lack of effort. How exactly are we trying to get different results? By doing the same thing over and over?

THAT'S INSANITY!!!! :scared:
 

emptyNedder

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he's really figured out how to take his muscular 6'4" frame, tilt his shoulder, and bully defenders to the slot. At the AHL level, it's been cartoonishly effective, especially in recent months.
our attempts to shoehorn people into roles where they don't really fit all that well, it kind of makes one wonder if they are as clever or as on point as they think they are about talent management.
I love Gauthier's Hell on Wheels drives to the net. However, his stat sheet belies something I have noticed, he doesn't really help his linemates score. While his defense has gotten better, I do think he might be one of the players who doesn't fit that well into RBA's system. I would think Edmonton would covet him as his skill set (as Warsofsky mentioned this week his speed is near elite) would fit the Oilers style. But Edmonton doesn't have a player that would interest the Canes.
 
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spockBokk

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I love Gauthier's Hell on Wheels drives to the net. However, his stat sheet belies something I have noticed, he doesn't really help his linemates score. While his defense has gotten better, I do think he might be one of the players who doesn't fit that well into RBA's system. I would think Edmonton would covet him as his skill set (as Warofsky mentioned this week his speed is near elite) would fit the Oilers style. But Edmonton doesn't have a player that would interest the Canes.

Psst...Puljujarvi...

(I’ll show myself out...)
 

vorbis

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I agree with the people who find it puzzling that Bean and Gauthier haven't gotten more of a chance to impact games this season. for me, it's part of a larger concern about the trimmed-fat roster with 1-2 open spots literally every game, and this season's attempts to squeeze out every nickel of cap space.

now in general, I am all for taking sometimes ridiculous steps to maximize cap space so you can squeeze in another contract at the trade deadline or whatever. and I broadly agree that Brind'Amour should have the ability to construct his roster how he sees fit, particularly given his role with the organization. and yeah, having players draw an NHL salary in Raleigh just so they can suit up once every other week and otherwise put their feet up in the press box doesn't sound like the most productive approach to roster space, particularly when you don't really have the requisite veterans who can perform under those conditions, and instead have your reserves populated by up and coming prospects who benefit most from regular playing time.

that being said, I think it's more than fair to account for all of that, but you also have to take note of the nature in which the Canes have lost on numerous occasions this season. the games where it just seems like the team doesn't have the legs or the juice to execute the gameplan as its designed. if you don't have that extra energy to forecheck like a demon, or leap into the "dirty areas" to scoop out a loose puck and maintain possession, or reach your mark in the defensive zone, then it feels like the whole idea of what it means to play like a Hurricane begins to wither pretty quickly, and games get out of hand. what happens on nights the Canes play like this is pretty consistent, really. can't get the puck out of their own zone. numerous overly-ambitious stretch passes, passes intercepted in the defensive zone. icing after icing after icing. stick penalties out the wazoo. I'm just speaking anecdotally, but it feels like this has happened the most frequently since around Christmas.

it just seems to me that if you are going to ask of the players night after night what Rod Brind'Amour asks of them in terms of energy, commitment, and grinding, and to point to that as a core of your team identity, then you had better be prepared to shuffle players in and out so that you can maximize your chances of getting that effort night after night. and it's weird that it hasn't happened specifically with two prospects who might be considered closest to becoming regular contributors at the NHL level in Bean and Gauthier.

the Marlies/Checkers game I saw a couple weeks ago was eye opening to me for Gauthier in particular. it was soooo obvious that Gauthier was ready to matriculate. he was a physical presence the entire game. the Marlies spent lots of attention trying to rattle him, remove him from the play, goad him into taking a penalty, make the Checkers succeed without him, the whole bit. I'm thinking his name was circled on the whiteboard in the locker room before the game. and yet he absorbed all their attention and still got to his game. and then he got the puck on his stick on the penalty kill and outraced two Marlies down the ice to score a beautiful shorthanded goal. if that's not the performance of a Rod Brind'Amour player then I don't know what is.

in my less charitable moments, I look at the return for the Marleau deal, and the approach to inactive roster spots, and the juggling of Fleury last season, and wonder if the past two seasons aren't one last sandbag before making a true run in the classic "competitive window" sense. otherwise what is it, some sort of ascetic approach to building a winner? hard to get my head around that.
 
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emptyNedder

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What makes you say this? Other than the fact that he hasn’t gotten any time with the big club, of course...
Can't put my finger on it. Perhaps it is that Goat has always seemed like a player who relies on talent and RBA seems to love the effort guys.
 

Vagrant

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Maybe that was true before, but with Goat's camp and season in Charlotte this year, there's no way anyone could make that claim now.

i'm not sure where the narrative came from about poor work ethic with gauthier. anyone disciplined enough to have developed their body the way he has usually has a fair share of motivation and respect for hard work. i think maturity was probably an issue. there are some players that take longer to warm to the task because things have always been relatively streamline for them. hockey connections from birth being denis gauthier's nephew. bodybuilding father and grandfather. 6th overall in the qmjhl draft, 38 goals in his draft season, 5 goals in 7 games in the u20, etc. he didn't really hit any walls until he turned pro. when he hit his first one, he blamed the wall. gave some french interviews bemoaning lack of opportunity and probably felt more like carolina was standing in the way to his superstar destiny than trying to see him overcome some adversity. hopefully somewhere during that time, someone from the checkers era that saw a ton of sure thing forwards arrive with overnight bags for their layover in charlotte to rdu for a flight that got delayed about five or six seasons in a row got in his ear and advised him to the risk of manifesting a reality where you are the star victim.
 

emptyNedder

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i'm not sure where the narrative came from about poor work ethic with gauthier.
I wasn't referring to work ethic—more of a stylistic issue. After last season RBA said something to the effect that Aho needed to "be better." This despite the fact that by every metric (including most statistics that measure defensive impact) Aho had a better season than Staal. For instance, hockey-reference's Defensive Point Share favored Aho over Staal 2.9 to 1.3 last season. I thought this was because Staal fit the "grit and grind" mode while Aho "looks" like he is not exerting as much effort even on excellent defensive plays (Aho took the majority of shifts when The Canes kept McDavid and Crosby pointless in February 2019 but there was little mention of his defensive effort).

Gauthier's noticeable effort is when he has the puck on his stick. His defensive responsibility has improved quite a bit, but you still don't see "the light in his eyes" when he is making a defensive play like you do when he in his Terminator role heading from the wing to the net front.

So not about work ethic so much as appearance.
 
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My Special Purpose

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I wasn't referring to work ethic—more of a stylistic issue. After last season RBA said something to the effect that Aho needed to "be better." This despite the fact that by every metric (including most statistics that measure defensive impact) Aho had a better season than Staal. For instance, hockey-reference's Defensive Point Share favored Aho over Staal 2.9 to 1.3 last season. I thought this was because Staal fit the "grit and grind" mode while Aho "looks" like he is not exerting as much effort even on excellent defensive plays (Aho took the majority of shifts when The Canes kept McDavid and Crosby pointless in February 2019 but there was little mention of his defensive effort).

Gauthier's noticeable effort is when he has the puck on his stick. His defensive responsibility has improved quite a bit, but you still don't see "the light in his eyes" when he is making a defensive play like you do when he in his Terminator role heading from the wing to the net front.

So not about work ethic so much as appearance.

Regardless of how we pick apart Gauthier's game, the point remains that he's seemingly being held to a different standard than a handful of players getting regular minutes in Raleigh. We want everything, every night from Gauthier in Charlotte, meanwhile, guys like Haula, Dzingel, Nino, etc., produce nothing at either end of the rink for the big club and just keep going out there.

Whatever weaknesses Gauthier had/has are being used against him while others avoid judgement.
 

TheReelChuckFletcher

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I tend to trust our FO more than myself or other fans on this board. The vast majority of the time, we always overhype guys that are dominating the AHL while underhyping guys who are on the "end of the bench" in the NHL. The skill gap between the AHL and NHL is massive. NHL teams that play a ton of ELC guys in their depth are usually a complete tire fire defensively for a reason. A couple of extra months and AHL playoffs for guys like Bean and Gauthier can make a huge difference in their overall readiness for the NHL. It's better to be too careful than too loose with prospects.
 
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spockBokk

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At the Checkers game tonight, there’s a guy in my section a few rows up, all by himself, with a laptop and ready to take notes, clearly a scout. Wondering if I’ll drink enough Yeungling to warm up enough gumption to go bother him and ask who he’s scouting and for whom...heh.
 

HisIceness

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At the Checkers game tonight, there’s a guy in my section a few rows up, all by himself, with a laptop and ready to take notes, clearly a scout. Wondering if I’ll drink enough Yeungling to warm up enough gumption to go bother him and ask who he’s scouting and for whom...heh.

I did this at a Myrtle Beach Pelicans game when I was about 13 and the guy told me to f*** off.

Good luck solider!
 
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Canes

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I knew he probably wouldn't last long in Charlotte. He was getting a NHL job, even if it was "just" an assistant job, if he guided the Checkers to any sort of success in his first couple of seasons. Looks like he could skip the assistant job altogether AND only be there for a year, but I guess we'll see.

He was very respected as coach of the South Carolina Stingrays and was rumored to be the next young up and coming coach by their team president as soon as he was hired.

Also lol if he gets a NHL head coaching job before Mike Vellucci.
 
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