Charles Elmore - Panthers' finances helped by lockout

[John Flyers Fan]

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/panthers/content/sports/epaper/2005/02/17/a1c_nhlmoney_0217.html

By not playing hockey, the Florida Panthers say they're on their way to their best season financially in five years.

The Panthers say they lost at least $17 million last season, but expect to cut their losses by 60 percent.

"If there's any silver lining in what happened in today's cancellation of the season, it's that much of the bleeding has started to stop," Panthers Chief Operating Officer Michael Yormark said Wednesday.

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[GKJ]

Of course so. They're one of the teams that are apart of the idiots this lockout was caused over because they're in a bad market. They're one of the teams that don't want to give anything up so they use the owners propaganda machine we've seen other struggling teams use to make it look better for them.


They won't fool me.

 

[Optimist*]

I sent them an e-mail saying you were not fooled. Thank goodness for that.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Question, Panthers had a decent attendace did they not? For such a bad team they had pretty good attendance numbers, and their payroll is around 24 million right? And the Panthers said they lost around 63 million dollars last year in the NHL. I just dont get those numbers, 24 mill payroll, decent attendance, and a loss of 63 million? It just makes no sense to me, if someone knows about this situation pretty well I'd like to find out if this is true in any way or if the Panthers are just flat out lying.

 

[ceber]

Big grain of salt on this, but I once heard Lou Nanne say on the radio that "a team in Florida" was giving away thousands of tickets per game. Freebies are often used to try to drive attendance. I'm not sure I buy that it's thousands each game, but if it is that might help explain some things.

 

[PantherBlood6*]

I think it was 64 million over the last 3 years -- and I've read anywhere from 17 million to 25 million last year. Those numbers still don't add up to me, though.$21 million payroll, decent attendance figures (about middle of the pack), they run their own arena, and their losses are catastrophic? I don't get it...

Anyway, Like I've said before -- If the new CBA allows the Panthers to field a competative team they'll survive. Miami/South Florida is the worst bandwagon town there is -- you could put a cricket team down here and as long as they win on a consistent basis, they'd get 60,000 a game. The Marlins rebuilt their franchise from the dead, no one thought they had a pulse -- horrible stadium deal, poor on field product, laughable fan support -- they were the Expos of the south. They improved the on-field product considerably and now the Marlins are VERY well off assuming this stadium deal goes through (and from all signs -- it will)

 

[DuklaNation]

I've been to many Panthers games while in Miami. Whatever the official attendence is, its overstated. Every time I've been there, you're lucky to have 5000.

 

[PantherBlood6*]

I've been to many Panthers games while in Miami. Whatever the official attendence is, its overstated. Every time I've been there, you're lucky to have 5000.

I'm a season ticket holder -- and that certainly isn't true. Regardless, attendance figures are taken from tickets sold.

 

[DuklaNation]

I'm a season ticket holder -- and that certainly isn't true. Regardless, attendance figures are taken from tickets sold.

I guess that's why I get the cheapest ticket available, and can move to the best seats during the 1st intermission.

Hmmmm.

 

[Sotnos]

Question, Panthers had a decent attendace did they not? For such a bad team they had pretty good attendance numbers, and their payroll is around 24 million right? And the Panthers said they lost around 63 million dollars last year in the NHL.

Their attendance hovers around 80% capacity, which as someone said only tells you that a seat is sold, not how much was paid for it. I'm pretty sure the losses weren't for just last year, that's the figure under the new ownership I think.

You seem to be implying that the Panthers had some great cash flow going yet still had bad losses & a new CBA wouldn't help them, but I don't think that's the case, and sticking up for that team is not something I enjoy, believe me.

You can check attendance figures here, and if you go under the "Clubhouse" section and look at schedules, you can see game-by-game attendance.

 

[Captain Conservative]

Of course so. They're one of the teams that are apart of the idiots this lockout was caused over because they're in a bad market. They're one of the teams that don't want to give anything up so they use the owners propaganda machine we've seen other struggling teams use to make it look better for them.


They won't fool me.

They tried and they tried, they even had their stoolie at the Palm Beach Post write an article, but they didn't fool you.


I'm proud that you're standing tall, standing by your ideals.




Bravo. You sir, are a hero!

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Their attendance hovers around 80% capacity, which as someone said only tells you that a seat is sold, not how much was paid for it. I'm pretty sure the losses weren't for just last year, that's the figure under the new ownership I think.

You seem to be implying that the Panthers had some great cash flow going yet still had bad losses & a new CBA wouldn't help them, but I don't think that's the case, and sticking up for that team is not something I enjoy, believe me.

You can check attendance figures here, and if you go under the "Clubhouse" section and look at schedules, you can see game-by-game attendance.

I just have a hard time believing with their middle of the pack attendance and such a low payroll of 24 million they still lost a TON of money. Doesn't that mean the Panthers really need a payroll of like 14 million then? Im trying to honestly figure it out, the numbers just don't make sense to me is all.

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

I just have a hard time believing with their middle of the pack attendance and such a low payroll of 24 million they still lost a TON of money. Doesn't that mean the Panthers really need a payroll of like 14 million then? Im trying to honestly figure it out, the numbers just don't make sense to me is all.

And some people wonder why the players didn't trust what the owners were claiming for losses...or why the players would only consider a salary cap once the linkage was removed. Its simple, the owners know how to overstate their losses and use half-truths to make the case that they're in horrible financial shape (no smart business person would put up with the kind of losses that Florida has reported).

 

[justapantherfan]

I've been to many Panthers games while in Miami. Whatever the official attendence is, its overstated. Every time I've been there, you're lucky to have 5000.

It doesn't matter how many people are there. It matters how many tickets are sold.

I went to all games and I became friends with some of the other season tickets close to me and some of them missed a lot of games. The seat is sold so it's as good as being occupied. Granted they lost money on concessions but the seat was sold.

 

[TexSen]

Of course so. They're one of the teams that are apart of the idiots this lockout was caused over because they're in a bad market. They're one of the teams that don't want to give anything up so they use the owners propaganda machine we've seen other struggling teams use to make it look better for them.


They won't fool me.

I feel like such a tool, it is I who they have fooled.

Cool?

 

[Sotnos]

I just have a hard time believing with their middle of the pack attendance and such a low payroll of 24 million they still lost a TON of money. Doesn't that mean the Panthers really need a payroll of like 14 million then? Im trying to honestly figure it out, the numbers just don't make sense to me is all.

Not completely sure, but I don't think their payroll was THAT low, could be wrong though. You have to remember, this $63mil loss figure goes back a few years, and their payroll was a lot more than that a few years ago. AFAIK, that is NOT the amount that was lost last year alone.

As for attendance, there is no way to determine how much was paid for the tickets that were sold, teams keep a tight lid on that info. They could be having a 2-for-1 deal for all we know.

Put it this way, Tampa had to have a ton of home playoff games to make their first profit in several years, so it is not that hard to believe that the Panthers lost that kind of money, at least to me it's not.

 

[NHLFanSince2020]

I guess that's why I get the cheapest ticket available, and can move to the best seats during the 1st intermission.

Hmmmm.

I remember going to Kings games doing the exact same thing.

Hasn't been as easy to do over the last 10 years (except for the years 95-98 when I had no desire to go 'cuz they were so bad).

 

[DuklaNation]

As for attendance, there is no way to determine how much was paid for the tickets that were sold, teams keep a tight lid on that info. They could be having a 2-for-1 deal for all we know.

My friend gets these 3 or 4 for 1 offers from them all the time. Thats where my assertion comes from that there attendance is grossly overstated. I repeat, every time I've been there, it doesnt come close to 15,000. Maybe my 5,000 figure is low but its not far off.

I like it that way as I'm from Toronto. Its usually my only NHL games for the year.

 

[Sotnos]

My friend gets these 3 or 4 for 1 offers from them all the time. Thats where my assertion comes from that there attendance is grossly overstated. I repeat, every time I've been there, it doesnt come close to 15,000. Maybe my 5,000 figure is low but its not far off.

Again, attendance is for tickets sold (and given away, I'd imagine). EVERY team reports attendance the same way. Teams do get a real count of attendees at the gate, but that's not a number they make public.

I do know what you mean though, because there have been many times in the past when I heard the announced attendance after a Bolts game and knew there was no way there were that many people actually in the building. It's kind of laughable sometimes, but since all teams do it the same way it's the only # we have to go on.

 

[DuklaNation]

I'm just trying to explain to the non-financial people on this board what may happen. Dont go by average attendance in order to derive total team revenue. Not reliable.

 

[PantherBlood6*]

My friend gets these 3 or 4 for 1 offers from them all the time. Thats where my assertion comes from that there attendance is grossly overstated. I repeat, every time I've been there, it doesnt come close to 15,000. Maybe my 5,000 figure is low but its not far off.

I like it that way as I'm from Toronto. Its usually my only NHL games for the year.

You're exaggerating grossly on both accounts. They had buy one, get the second half off deals at a HANDFUL of home games -- and POSSIBLY buy one, get one free deal for the upper deck at a couple, but 3 or 4 for one deals?who are you kidding? I went to almost all the home games last year and I can assure you there was never such a deal.

I'd say on weeknights the actual attendance was about 11,000 to 13,000 -- and on weekends anywhere from 14,000 to 16,000. When the northern teams like the Rangers, Canadiens, Leafs etc. come into town, it's almost a guaranteed sellout and the place is packed. Yes, half the crowd is rooting against the Panthers but that doesn't count against their revenues.

I don't think the numbers are that far off at all.

 

[Sotnos]

I'm just trying to explain to the non-financial people on this board what may happen. Dont go by average attendance in order to derive total team revenue. Not reliable.

That's the point I was trying to make also, guess I didn't do it too well. The attendance #s as they are reported can be used to make some general assumptions, but trying to guess about revenue from them probably won't be very accurate.

 

[silver_made*]

alan cohen just gives boat-loads of tickets away. he does this so the office depot center has the appearance of having a large paid attendance, thus fooling real customers into thinking that panther games are the in thing (and trying to get the same message across via the camera to viewers at home). plus, he is doing this to make fans feel secure and fooling them into believing that these large crowds of "paying" customers are proof that the team is healthy.

florida is losing money, even if they paid their players like juniors. hockey CAN work in south florida, but only where the team used to be located. the franchise's first owner, wayne huzienga (current owner of the nfl's dolphins) played the cats' first 5 years at the smaller miami arena (14,702 capacity). the nba's heat played in the same facility at the same time, under the ownership of mickey arison.

the panthers routinely sold out the miami arena, and if not came very close often. fans from broward county (sunrise, florida's location) will have you believe that they made up the majority of those in attendance at the miami arena those first five years. they will also have you believe that they hated the travel south-bound to dade county (home to the old miami arena). on the first account, there is no way of proving most miami arena-goers were these broward county "transplant northerners" and if they were responsible for packing the 14,702 facility, why can't they squeeze more than 3,000 into their cushy new joint in their own backyard? it may even prove that most broward fans made up a minority of the miami arena crowds back in the day. regarding the second account, broward fans hated coming down south, but they did and still would if they had to. at least there are activities in the downtown area, for before and after games (bayside, south beach 15 minutes away). in sunrise? sawgrass mall. a ****ing mall.

huzienga and arison could not stand each other. the only things they could agree on were that the miami arena was too small and outdated (true), and that the panthers and heat could not share housing. arison literally moved across the street to the american airlines arena, while the panthers moved 1 hour north to sunrise, fl next to a big mall.

if the panthers are still downtown, in an area that was fit to host the mtv video awards, where the heat already reside, where the marlins are trying to their new stadium to, where posh condos are being set up, in a prominent city that has world-wide recognition, they are healthier than they are today.

no, i do not want to hear that the miami arena and its capacity did no cut it. frankly, despite being a smaller facility, it drew a larger paid attendance than anything cohen embelishes today.

florida may be having their best year financially in years, but by their own admission it is only "stopping the bleeding." they are in bad shape, real bad shape.

 

[NYIsles1*]

Of course so. They're one of the teams that are apart of the idiots this lockout was caused over because they're in a bad market.

As opposed to the Flyers owner who comes on after going to game seven of the conference finals in a modern building and claims his team's been losing revenue.

That's why this lockout was caused.

 

[Zhackpot]

You're exaggerating grossly on both accounts. They had buy one, get the second half off deals at a HANDFUL of home games -- and POSSIBLY buy one, get one free deal for the upper deck at a couple, but 3 or 4 for one deals?who are you kidding? I went to almost all the home games last year and I can assure you there was never such a deal.

I'd say on weeknights the actual attendance was about 11,000 to 13,000 -- and on weekends anywhere from 14,000 to 16,000. When the northern teams like the Rangers, Canadiens, Leafs etc. come into town, it's almost a guaranteed sellout and the place is packed. Yes, half the crowd is rooting against the Panthers but that doesn't count against their revenues.

I don't think the numbers are that far off at all.

The numbers may not be off but the revenue generated from those tickets may be.
When attendance is down or ticket sales are slow teams often throw in tickets as incentives or thank you's to advertisers and sponsors, such as car dealers, radio stations, etc. Good chance that has been happening in Florida. Problem with this is the tickets are then given away to their customers, employees, listeners, etc. and in a market where hockey isn't a mainstream sport, the tickets will often go unused.

So while the attendance numbers may reflect the number of tickets "sold", it will not be reflective of attendance.