Changes you would make

[Flowah]

Draft high skill, high reward type players instead of safe picks. Go for Kucherov's and Palat's instead of Sheahan's.

Hockey Sense > Skill > Speed > Size

Should prioritize in that order.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Draft high skill, high reward type players instead of safe picks. Go for Kucherov's and Palat's instead of Sheahan's.

I think what you're saying is "draft well".

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Hockey Sense > Skill > Speed > Size

Should prioritize in that order.

Maybe. They certainly thought Sheahan's "hockey sense" was very high. And Sheahan is a completely serviceable hockey player, don't get me wrong. But I'd switch skill and hockey sense.

 

[lilidk]

Hockey Sense > Skill > Speed > Size

Should prioritize in that order.

I would replace size with leadership and hard work and it should be in any order

 

[Dead Thing]

Where do I start.
1) Fire Blashill and name Bylsma interim for the rest of the season. Blashill is ruining Mantha and AA.
2) PLAY THE KIDS.
3) Send Rasmussen back to Junior. I realize that he doesn't have much to prove at this level, however it will help get his mojo back and it almost certainly guarantees that he would be named to Team Canada for the World Juniors in Dec./Jan.. Playing with and against the Worlds best can only be a positive step in his development. There is no shame that at the age of 19, he is not quite ready for the mans game in the NHL.
At the Trade deadline
4) Move Nyquist to a legitimate Cup contender so he waives his NTC. He's off to a nice start(7 pts. in 8 games) and he is playing for a new contract, so he is motivated. Should return a late 1st.
5) Move Daley to one of the 15 teams not on his no trade list who would be looking for insurance on the blueline for a playoff run. Return would be a 2nd and/or B+ prospect.
6) Move Ericsson(with $1.250 mil. retention) to some playoff team looking for depth.
7) Trade Howard
8) Convince Vanek to accept a move to playoff team.
Post season
9) Hire Yzerman to serve as immediate GM or as a consultant to Holland if he insists on serving the last yr. of his present deal.
10 ) If Ericsson is not moved at the TDL, buyout the last yr. of his deal.
11) Nielsen has a 10 team no trade list. Hopefully one of the 20 teams might be looking for depth down the middle(willing to retain $1.250 million)
12) Finishing last is no guarantee of getting first overall pick(only 20%). I'll be happy wit a top 3 pick.

I have been a Wings fan for 60 yrs. I suffered through the Dead Thing era of the late 60s to the early 80s. It is understandable that the Wings' depth is a little thin, when you consider that they traded 10 or 11 1st. round picks during our 25 yr. playoff run to help bolster our playoff runs. Also remember that both Chicago and Pittsburgh had long playoff droughts earning them high draft picks that allowed them to draft players like Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Toews and Kane. It will still take a couple of more yrs., but this too shall pass.

PLAY THE KIDS

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Hockey Sense > Skill > Speed > Size

Should prioritize in that order.

Skill>speed>skill>hockey sense >intangibles

 

[The Flying Octopus]

A lot of things.

 

[taylorjonl]

Mainly the coach, he lost the room long ago. Outside of that, just draft well and be patient while contracts expire.

 

[Pizza!Pizza!]

I’m just curious on what you guys would change and how you would plan the future of the team.

I would have them start winning, and then continue winning in the future.

Also, fire Blashill (and Bylsma) and then give it a few weeks to see if the team responds. If yes, cool. If no, then start fielding offers on AA to try and shake things up and get rid of a negative attitude.

A short term fix would be a slight line juggle. Nielsen and Vanek were a perfect pairing in the past, and work well on the PP together - so why they're on different lines is beyond me (unless Holland told Blashill to deliberately tank).

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Skill>speed>skill>hockey sense >intangibles

No. I'd rather have a Henrik Zetterberg than an Alexei Kovalev.

Hockey sense is WAY more important than you're giving it credit for. Hank and Dats were so good because they both knew where to be on the ice at all times. They knew where the other was going to be. Dats was better because he had more skill, but hell, Zetterberg basically made his living from like age 32 on by using his brain. Igor Larionov played the entire second half of his career where he was slower and weaker as a stud C because he was able to basically be the conductor for the symphony of the Russian Five.

Give me a guy with a high hockey IQ and okay skill over a guy with crazy skill but no hockey IQ anyday. Give me Igor Larionov over Maxim Afinegenov. Give me Henrik Zetterberg over Alexei Kovalev. Give me

Where do I start.
1) Fire Blashill and name Bylsma interim for the rest of the season. Blashill is ruining Mantha and AA.
2) PLAY THE KIDS.
3) Send Rasmussen back to Junior. I realize that he doesn't have much to prove at this level, however it will help get his mojo back and it almost certainly guarantees that he would be named to Team Canada for the World Juniors in Dec./Jan.. Playing with and against the Worlds best can only be a positive step in his development. There is no shame that at the age of 19, he is not quite ready for the mans game in the NHL.
At the Trade deadline
4) Move Nyquist to a legitimate Cup contender so he waives his NTC. He's off to a nice start(7 pts. in 8 games) and he is playing for a new contract, so he is motivated. Should return a late 1st.
5) Move Daley to one of the 15 teams not on his no trade list who would be looking for insurance on the blueline for a playoff run. Return would be a 2nd and/or B+ prospect.
6) Move Ericsson(with $1.250 mil. retention) to some playoff team looking for depth.
7) Trade Howard
8) Convince Vanek to accept a move to playoff team.
Post season
9) Hire Yzerman to serve as immediate GM or as a consultant to Holland if he insists on serving the last yr. of his present deal.
10 ) If Ericsson is not moved at the TDL, buyout the last yr. of his deal.
11) Nielsen has a 10 team no trade list. Hopefully one of the 20 teams might be looking for depth down the middle(willing to retain $1.250 million)
12) Finishing last is no guarantee of getting first overall pick(only 20%). I'll be happy wit a top 3 pick.

I have been a Wings fan for 60 yrs. I suffered through the Dead Thing era of the late 60s to the early 80s. It is understandable that the Wings' depth is a little thin, when you consider that they traded 10 or 11 1st. round picks during our 25 yr. playoff run to help bolster our playoff runs. Also remember that both Chicago and Pittsburgh had long playoff droughts earning them high draft picks that allowed them to draft players like Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Toews and Kane. It will still take a couple of more yrs., but this too shall pass.

PLAY THE KIDS

1. If AA and Mantha are being ruined it is because AA and Mantha are ruining themselves. I have no problems with how Blashill is deploying them. They want to play tough and engaged hockey, they get big minutes. They want to ease off, they play less. It's pretty simple.
2) You remember Boston and Montreal right? That's essentially what "PLAY ALL THE KIDS" gives you. Play kids in appropriate situations in appropriate roles. Don't play someone just because they're 24 or under.
3) Rasmussen should stick with the Wings if he can show that he's in the flow of the game the next three nights. Play slow and be behind the play? He should go back to junior. Him making or not making the World Junior team means nothing to me.
4) Fine.
5) Nope. I want Daley on this roster so Cholo can have a D partner he can lean on to do the defense stuff while he's developing.
6) I'm glad we can just unilaterally decide to move our players we hate.
7) Fine.
8) Why, so we can get a stick of gum? Vanek has literally no trade value at this point.
9) Ok.
10) NO NO NO NO. Ericsson isn't the dead weight you make him out to be. What the **** do you gain by buying him out?
11) No, unless you get an actual value piece for him. You again, gain little by just moving him out for the sake of moving him out.
12) Fine.

I can understand a little bit of wanting to clear the boards, but we are clearing up so much cap by just ending this year and next. You don't have to do any of these trades just to do them or retain to do them.

 

[Flowah]

No. I'd rather have a Henrik Zetterberg than an Alexei Kovalev.

I think it's more Yakupov vs Sheahan.

One's in the KHL, the other is still an NHL player.

If you have all the skill in the world but no hockey sense you are useless in the NHL. If you have hockey sense, you may not be able to dispy doodle around the entire other team, but you can position yourself well and be in the right place at the right time offensively and defensively. No highlight reel plays, but consistent and useful.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I think it's more Yakupov vs Sheahan.

One's in the KHL, the other is still an NHL player.

If you have all the skill in the world but no hockey sense you are useless in the NHL. If you have hockey sense, you may not be able to dispy doodle around the entire other team, but you can position yourself well and be in the right place at the right time offensively and defensively. No highlight reel plays, but consistent and useful.

Yeah, I get that. I just wanted to use kinda extreme examples to show that even if the skill guy catches on, I'd still rather have the guy with high hockey IQ who isn't as fast.

How about another one. Pavel Brendl. Massively talented. Also a massive bust. Alexandre Daigle. Massive talent, Massive bust.

The thing is, most skilled players do have great hockey IQ and vice-versa. So, up high in the draft, give me the guy with the head for the game who is a sliver slower or less skilled. Give me, essentially, Peyton Manning over Ryan Leaf.

 

[Frk It]

1) Fire Ryan Martin
2) Give his job to Draper
3) Bring in someone externally to fill the other AGM spot (Martin Madden - Ducks have been killing the draft IMO)
4) Bring in Yzerman as an advisor until Holland goes to Seattle in 2020
5) Let Blashill coach out the year so we get a high pick then replace him with either McLellan or Q
6) Draft more like last year moving forward

 

[Frk It]

Yeah, I get that. I just wanted to use kinda extreme examples to show that even if the skill guy catches on, I'd still rather have the guy with high hockey IQ who isn't as fast.

How about another one. Pavel Brendl. Massively talented. Also a massive bust. Alexandre Daigle. Massive talent, Massive bust.

The thing is, most skilled players do have great hockey IQ and vice-versa. So, up high in the draft, give me the guy with the head for the game who is a sliver slower or less skilled. Give me, essentially, Peyton Manning over Ryan Leaf.

It’s so hard to weigh them. “Skill” and “hockey sense” are purely subjective for whoever is watching. I remember people raving on and on about Sam Reinhart’s Hockey IQ, and it hasn’t materialized into much for a top 2 pick. (Baffles me a little, TBH)

I used to be a sucker for guys like Merkley who have all the skill in the world but you have to “fix”. Never used to want to hear about intangibles, but watching guys like Larkin have the drive to fix any hole in his game made me see that there is some value to that, even if I don’t value it as highly as the Wings do.

So many variables are at play, it’s a very hard thing to get right.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

It’s so hard to weigh them. “Skill” and “hockey sense” are purely subjective for whoever is watching. I remember people raving on and on about Sam Reinhart’s Hockey IQ, and it hasn’t materialized into much for a top 2 pick. (Baffles me a little, TBH)

I used to be a sucker for guys like Merkley who have all the skill in the world but you have to “fix”. Never used to want to hear about intangibles, but watching guys like Larkin have the drive to fix any hole in his game made me see that there is some value to that, even if I don’t value it as highly as the Wings do.

So many variables are at play, it’s a very hard thing to get right.

Yeah, I get that. Basically, I'm a fan of a guy who is driven to fix himself unless the guy that you are consigning yourself to fix is THAT good. Merkley I think might be that good, so I would have been fine with Detroit taking him. But anywhere remotely close in talent, give me the internally driven guy over the guy I gotta prod.

Give me Larkin over AA. AA probably has more talent, but Larkin so far has been so intrinsically driven to better himself that he's going to have the better career of the two by far.

 

[Oddbob]

1) Fire Blashill, (finish season with interim) hate most of the moves he makes and line combos. Doesn't seem to be able to motivate anyone to improve their game.
2) Trade Nyquist
3) Trade Dekeyser when healthy
4) Trade Nielsen
5) Trade AA
6) Trade Abdelkader
7) Either let Hronek play or send him to GR (depending on performance)
8) Fire Blashill's bald buddy as he sucked as PP coach, and his affiliation with Blashill means bye bye.
9) Be willing to sit veterans if/when they have an off night, instead of it always being one of the kids. We aren't a playoff team, so sit Daley/Ericsson/Abdelkader/Nielsen etc, one in a while and let kids play instead.
10) Hire Yzerman at season's end and promote Kenny upstairs for the final year of his deal, or have him just be an advisor.

 

[JoesuffP]

Special teams is the only positive this team has at the moment. Bylsma is doing a fine job imo

 

[Dead Thing]

No. I'd rather have a Henrik Zetterberg than an Alexei Kovalev.

Hockey sense is WAY more important than you're giving it credit for. Hank and Dats were so good because they both knew where to be on the ice at all times. They knew where the other was going to be. Dats was better because he had more skill, but hell, Zetterberg basically made his living from like age 32 on by using his brain. Igor Larionov played the entire second half of his career where he was slower and weaker as a stud C because he was able to basically be the conductor for the symphony of the Russian Five.

Give me a guy with a high hockey IQ and okay skill over a guy with crazy skill but no hockey IQ anyday. Give me Igor Larionov over Maxim Afinegenov. Give me Henrik Zetterberg over Alexei Kovalev. Give me



1. If AA and Mantha are being ruined it is because AA and Mantha are ruining themselves. I have no problems with how Blashill is deploying them. They want to play tough and engaged hockey, they get big minutes. They want to ease off, they play less. It's pretty simple.
2) You remember Boston and Montreal right? That's essentially what "PLAY ALL THE KIDS" gives you. Play kids in appropriate situations in appropriate roles. Don't play someone just because they're 24 or under.
3) Rasmussen should stick with the Wings if he can show that he's in the flow of the game the next three nights. Play slow and be behind the play? He should go back to junior. Him making or not making the World Junior team means nothing to me.
4) Fine.
5) Nope. I want Daley on this roster so Cholo can have a D partner he can lean on to do the defense stuff while he's developing.
6) I'm glad we can just unilaterally decide to move our players we hate.
7) Fine.
8) Why, so we can get a stick of gum? Vanek has literally no trade value at this point.
9) Ok.
10) NO NO NO NO. Ericsson isn't the dead weight you make him out to be. What the **** do you gain by buying him out?
11) No, unless you get an actual value piece for him. You again, gain little by just moving him out for the sake of moving him out.
12) Fine.

I can understand a little bit of wanting to clear the boards, but we are clearing up so much cap by just ending this year and next. You don't have to do any of these trades just to do them or retain to do them.

1) We will just have to agree to disagree about Blashill in regards to Mantha and AA.
3) Why would anyone think that that Ras is going to show a marked improvement in his next three games over his first 7. Back to Junior(and yes on Team Canada). It would not surprise me at all that Ras spends a year in G.R. and hits the NHL full time at the grand old age of 21.
5) Again, agree to disagree.
6/10) I don't hate Ericsson.
8) Doesn't mean he won't have value at the TDL.
11) Didn't specify what the could/would/should return be for Nielsen.

This team will not be playoff contenders until the 20/21 season at the earliest, more likely 21/22.
Move guys like Nielsen, Ericsson, Daley, Vanek(not to mention Witkowski, Jensen and
Glendening) for future assets, however limited they might be.
It is not hard to imagine that by 21/22, our top 9 forwards will consist of Larkin, Mantha, AA, Zadina. Veleno, Rasmussen, Bertuzzi, Berggreen and Smith. D would be anchored by Cholo, Hronek, and McIssac. To be truthful, have no idea how our goaltending future looks. Can only hope that one, if not two, of Petrazzelli, Larsson, Fulcher, Rybar and Van Pottleberghe work out.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

1) We will just have to agree to disagree about Blashill in regards to Mantha and AA.
3) Why would anyone think that that Ras is going to show a marked improvement in his next three games over his first 7. Back to Junior(and yes on Team Canada). It would not surprise me at all that Ras spends a year in G.R. and hits the NHL full time at the grand old age of 21.
5) Again, agree to disagree.
6/10) I don't hate Ericsson.
8) Doesn't mean he won't have value at the TDL.
11) Didn't specify what the could/would/should return be for Nielsen.

This team will not be playoff contenders until the 20/21 season at the earliest, more likely 21/22.
Move guys like Nielsen, Ericsson, Daley, Vanek(not to mention Witkowski, Jensen and
Glendening) for future assets, however limited they might be.
It is not hard to imagine that by 21/22, our top 9 forwards will consist of Larkin, Mantha, AA, Zadina. Veleno, Rasmussen, Bertuzzi, Berggreen and Smith. D would be anchored by Cholo, Hronek, and McIssac. To be truthful, have no idea how our goaltending future looks. Can only hope that one, if not two, of Petrazzelli, Larsson, Fulcher, Rybar and Van Pottleberghe work out.

I guess more what I'm getting at is that trading guys out just to be free of their money is a bad move at this juncture. Basically, I don't see the point in trading guys like Nielsen, Ericsson, Daley, and Vanek for future assets if all it will amount to is like a third and two 6ths or something like that. The first two weeks of the year shows how bad a team that you trade away any current asset on D that won't be here later will look. There is literally no reason to force Hronek, Cholowski, Sulak, etc. to sink or swim. You don't gain much flexibility if any by dealing their current D partners and as evidenced by how the team looked without Daley, Kronwall, DDK, and Ericsson, the kids aren't ready yet to carry the load.

Basically, the Wings have a boatload of guys who cap out as complimentary players. I have literally zero interest in trading current assets to get future assets that will be more of the same. You're not getting a material asset for any of the guys you are clamoring to move. Maybe you can squeeze a 2nd out of Glendening from Toronto. But most other guys will be a third or less and that's if you retain money on them. I have no interest in going out of my way to "get something for them" on middling guys. If the return is very late round picks? I'd rather that they just walk and give me the contract space.

The whole reason you'd move Nielsen or Ericsson or Daley is if you had a crushing need for cap space to make a huge move. Since you are aiming for 21-22 to be that time... Daley and Ericsson are gone or on greatly reduced contracts. Nielsen has like a year left.

And on Thomas Vanek... he's been dealt the last two TDLs and did virtually nothing in Florida and while he was better in Columbus, it was still underwhelming. He got dealt for a 3rd and McIlrath to Florida and the corpses of Tyler Motte and Jussi Jokinen. The same Jussi Jokinen who was in camp with Detroit this year on a PTO and was completely worthless. Nobody is giving you a damn thing for Thomas Vanek unless literally every other forward potentially on the market all got swine flu at the same time on TDL morning and he was quite literally the only asset out there to pick up. Vanek is what he is at this point. He's no longer a "free TDL asset". He's a Wing for this whole season.

 

[Flowah]

“Skill” and “hockey sense” are purely subjective for whoever is watching.

Fair enough.

I define skill as being able to make the puck do what you want, with regards to passing, stickhandling, shooting. Hockey sense is knowing how plays are going to develop so you know where to be and what do you. Right place right time to intercept passes from the other team, or to give your own team somewhere to pass to, being able to retrieve rebounds because you know where it's going. That kinda stuff.

 

[Oddbob]

I guess more what I'm getting at is that trading guys out just to be free of their money is a bad move at this juncture. Basically, I don't see the point in trading guys like Nielsen, Ericsson, Daley, and Vanek for future assets if all it will amount to is like a third and two 6ths or something like that. The first two weeks of the year shows how bad a team that you trade away any current asset on D that won't be here later will look. There is literally no reason to force Hronek, Cholowski, Sulak, etc. to sink or swim. You don't gain much flexibility if any by dealing their current D partners and as evidenced by how the team looked without Daley, Kronwall, DDK, and Ericsson, the kids aren't ready yet to carry the load.

Basically, the Wings have a boatload of guys who cap out as complimentary players. I have literally zero interest in trading current assets to get future assets that will be more of the same. You're not getting a material asset for any of the guys you are clamoring to move. Maybe you can squeeze a 2nd out of Glendening from Toronto. But most other guys will be a third or less and that's if you retain money on them. I have no interest in going out of my way to "get something for them" on middling guys. If the return is very late round picks? I'd rather that they just walk and give me the contract space.

The whole reason you'd move Nielsen or Ericsson or Daley is if you had a crushing need for cap space to make a huge move. Since you are aiming for 21-22 to be that time... Daley and Ericsson are gone or on greatly reduced contracts. Nielsen has like a year left.

And on Thomas Vanek... he's been dealt the last two TDLs and did virtually nothing in Florida and while he was better in Columbus, it was still underwhelming. He got dealt for a 3rd and McIlrath to Florida and the corpses of Tyler Motte and Jussi Jokinen. The same Jussi Jokinen who was in camp with Detroit this year on a PTO and was completely worthless. Nobody is giving you a damn thing for Thomas Vanek unless literally every other forward potentially on the market all got swine flu at the same time on TDL morning and he was quite literally the only asset out there to pick up. Vanek is what he is at this point. He's no longer a "free TDL asset". He's a Wing for this whole season.

I disagree, you can easily get a 3rd or 4th for Vanek. Benning is a bad GM, so of course all he got was bad stuff back, Holland is actually pretty good at trading for picks, and Vanek actually played quite well in his short run in CBJ last year.

As far as improving, I don't think it has to take as long as everyone thinks. The reason I say this, is after this season, Kronwall either retires or isn't back next season. So lets say you get even an ok younger and faster UFA D to replace him, that right there can already improve our team, with just one move. You move an AA out for either a more committed forward or comparable D, and you can improve as well. Not every move and trade we make has to be only looking at the future. We can slowly move a piece or two out, and improve bit by bit. It doesn't have to be a move 15 guys at once and start all over.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Fair enough.

I define skill as being able to make the puck do what you want, with regards to passing, stickhandling, shooting. Hockey sense is knowing how plays are going to develop so you know where to be and what do you. Right place right time to intercept passes from the other team, or to give your own team somewhere to pass to, being able to retrieve rebounds because you know where it's going. That kinda stuff.

Yep. That's how I see it too. And I want guys who are where they ought to be to make the easy play than guys who can do the wrong thing and have it work because they're physically talented. Kinda like a goalie. I want the guy who plays a supremely boring game who rarely gets caught out of position than a guy like Mrazek who will make outstanding saves which need to be outstanding because he screwed up earlier.

90% of hockey plays come down to being in the right spot. That's why in the playoffs you get grinders who become heroes. They're in the right spot to bang home an easy goal that bounces off the goalie after a big save. That's why a guy like Carey Price is one of the top 3 goalies in hockey even though he hardly seems to move in net and a guy like Mrazek will eventually break down and be worthless.

Positioning, positioning, positioning.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I disagree, you can easily get a 3rd or 4th for Vanek. Benning is a bad GM, so of course all he got was bad stuff back, Holland is actually pretty good at trading for picks, and Vanek actually played quite well in his short run in CBJ last year.

As far as improving, I don't think it has to take as long as everyone thinks. The reason I say this, is after this season, Kronwall either retires or isn't back next season. So lets say you get even an ok younger and faster UFA D to replace him, that right there can already improve our team, with just one move. You move an AA out for either a more committed forward or comparable D, and you can improve as well. Not every move and trade we make has to be only looking at the future. We can slowly move a piece or two out, and improve bit by bit. It doesn't have to be a move 15 guys at once and start all over.

I wasn't saying that you have to do everything at once. I was actually arguing that you don't. That trading away Nielsen and Ericsson and the like NOW is counterproductive to getting better sooner.

Eventually, people will stop trading for Vanek. I think everyone around the league knows what he is at this point. He's not valuable backup scoring for a playoff team. He's not a fantastic mentor for young players. He's an all-offense wing that you have to shelter who isn't fast.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I wasn't saying that you have to do everything at once. I was actually arguing that you don't. That trading away Nielsen and Ericsson and the like NOW is counterproductive to getting better sooner.

Eventually, people will stop trading for Vanek. I think everyone around the league knows what he is at this point. He's not valuable backup scoring for a playoff team. He's not a fantastic mentor for young players. He's an all-offense wing that you have to shelter who isn't fast.

Considering last time he only brought in a conditional 3rd (and that's with salary retention by the Wings) that time may have already come. Especially given his full NTC.

 

[Oddbob]

I wasn't saying that you have to do everything at once. I was actually arguing that you don't. That trading away Nielsen and Ericsson and the like NOW is counterproductive to getting better sooner.

Eventually, people will stop trading for Vanek. I think everyone around the league knows what he is at this point. He's not valuable backup scoring for a playoff team. He's not a fantastic mentor for young players. He's an all-offense wing that you have to shelter who isn't fast.

That part wasn't really aimed at you specifically, more my thoughts on slowly making changes as we improve for the future. Sorry if it came across that way.

While I agree, that Vanek doesn't have a suitor with every team, I think with how scoring is so much a struggle for so many, there will be at least 2 or 3 desperate for offense teams, pushing either to get in or stay in the playoffs, that would pay a 3rd or a 4th for him. We on HF always overvalue draft picks, especially the lower ones, but the reality is teams don't have that much an issue trading away 3rds and later, which is why there is always lots of those moved.