Champions League Game Day 1

[YNWA14]

I don't know about 'definitely better'. A lot of Pulisic's opportunity has been circumstantial, and while he's played well it's not like he's doing anything exceptional (relative to other exceptional talents). He isn't even on the same level as say Raheem Sterling was at the same age.

Plenty of the players on that list have done big things in limited time at the top level, or been very successful for a long time at lower levels and have obvious talents. Pulisic has not necessarily distinguished himself from most of them at all, and as far as talent goes there's plenty to go around at that level and plenty of players I didn't list (Embolo for example).

 

[Evilo]

You guys are all biased as hell. Mor, Pulisic and Dembele are clearly at the same level. Or you're just biased towards french players.
There, easy.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Embolo is probably the best U20 in Bundesliga currently, Pulisic could be the second. Although even in Dortmund I'd consider Isak more talented.

Isak has barely played at all for the Dortmund senior team, so it's hard to say that he's as good now as Pulisic. I'd probably rate him as more talented than Pulisic, but he's not there yet. Embolo hasn't done nearly enough, either, and he's a year and a half older.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Are you sure about that? There are a lot of really good u20 players in the world.

Mbappe, Dembele, Jesus, Donnarumma, Tielemans, Rashford, Guedes, Diawara, Iheanacho, Malcom, Roberts, Havertz, Ascacibar, Eggestein, van de Beek, Woodburn, Valverde etc. etc. (I'm probably missing/forgetting some big ones)

Watching Pulisic and Dembele both play I don't think it's hard to see that Dembele is better and more talented.

This is what I mean. Pulisic is a starter, and trending towards a very good one at that for a top 5-10 team in the world. There are a number of people who say Pulisic is Dortmund's most important player this season, and so far he has not disappointed with two of three really good performances in the Bundesliga, and another really good one in the Champions League. Pulisic has played every minute but four this season for Dortmund, some of those guys probably haven't even played 100 minutes this season yet for their team. Some of those guys are just "potential" players. They don't play for their teams because they right now are not as good as the options or aren't overwhelmingly better, therefore the tie goes to the experienced player.

I am not naive to just think he's the best because he gets a lot of minutes and does well, there are some others that get as many minutes and currently might play better, but its not a 15-20 player list, maybe 2-3, 4 players.

 

[YNWA14]

A lot of those players have stiffer competition to face than Pulisic for playing time, or are just starters on a different caliber of team. You said he was 'safely' a top 5 u20 player in the world...I'm just saying it's not that clear. There are a lot of very talented players 'u20' in the world. He's a bright prospect but he doesn't look like he could be a 'top 10 player in the world' type to me, and a top 5 player in the BuLi as his ceiling is actually pretty complimentary/generous.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Pulisic is the best player.
Best American Player

 

[les Habs]

Jerry Lee says "whole lotta overratin' goin' on."

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

This was from last season as a 17/18 year old. Same type of things people used last year, they were sure Emre More was more talented because he does flicks and ****. Stats proves it out that Pulisic is among the best U20's in the world, but hey, everyone's fave is better than Pulisic because they said so, no real reason is needed to back it up.

Pulisic was one of the most dangerous players in Germany

EXPECTED PER 90 MINS
PLAYER CLUB GOALS ASSISTS GOALS + ASSISTS
1 Arjen Robben Bayern Munich 0.39 0.36 0.75
2 Ousmane Dembele Borussia Dortmund 0.26 0.47 0.72
3 Shinji Kagawa Borussia Dortmund 0.29 0.41 0.70
4 Franck Ribery Bayern Munich 0.26 0.37 0.63
5 Emil Forsberg RB Leipzig 0.18 0.43 0.61
6 Paul-Georges Ntep Wolfsburg 0.25 0.28 0.54
7 Douglas Costa Bayern Munich 0.19 0.34 0.53
8 Christian Pulisic Borussia Dortmund 0.22 0.30 0.52
9 Marco Fabian Eintracht Frankfurt 0.31 0.13 0.43
10 Kerem Demirbay Hoffenheim 0.16 0.25 0.41
11 Salomon Kalou Hertha BSC 0.21 0.19 0.40
12 Joshua Kimmich Bayern Munich 0.31 0.09 0.40
13 Nicolai Muller Hamburg 0.26 0.13 0.39
14 Raphael Guerreiro Borussia Dortmund 0.24 0.15 0.39
15 Thiago Alcantara Bayern Munich 0.21 0.16 0.37

Pulisic has been one of the best teenagers in Europe since 2010-11

YEAR PLAYER CLUB EXP. GOALS AND ASSISTS PER 90 MINS
1 2016-17 Ousmane Dembele Borussia Dortmund 0.72
2 2013-14 Raheem Sterling Liverpool 0.67
3 2015-16 Dele Alli Tottenham Hotspur 0.58
4 2012-13 Julian Draxler Schalke 0.54
5 2015-16 Marco Asensio Espanyol 0.52
6 2015-16 Leroy Sane Schalke 0.52
7 2016-17 Christian Pulisic Borussia Dortmund 0.52
8 2015-16 Kingsley Coman Bayern Munich 0.51
9 2013-14 Bruno Fernandes Udinese 0.49
10 2015-16 Julian Brandt Bayer Leverkusen 0.47
11 2015-16 Ousmane Dembele Rennes 0.44
12 2013-14 Leon Goretzka Schalke 0.41
13 2012-13 Raheem Sterling Liverpool 0.41
14 2011-12 Julian Draxler Schalke 0.39
15 2010-11 Jack Wilshere Arsenal 0.37

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-great-american-soccer-hope-is-here-for-real-this-time/

 

[YNWA14]

Per 90 stats can be very misleading, and you're only looking at offensive capability as the measuring stat of making him a top 5 teen in the world. You can use that argument comparing him to attackers though.

There's more to the game than just 'expected' stats, or scoring.

 

[Evilo]

Good to know Ntep is dominating Bundesliga
You're a joke.

Everyone's fav
Without backing it up

You're ridiculous. Everyone here tells you Pulisic is extremely talented. That projecting him to be a top 5 BL player is fair and probably optimistic.
But of course, that's not enough for you you think it's awfull terrible to say so. No, he's so much more than top 5 in the BL. He's the future Ballon d'or player....

 

[Evilo]

Expected stats is the ultimate lamest hipster stat. It's about "what could be but isn't".
I'd feel ashamed to use it.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

You guys taking all of this too seriously?

Jeez.

 

[MrFunnyWobbl]

Dembele is the better player yes, but he acts like a 12 year old.

I hope his career path follows that of Robinho.

 

[Deficient Mode]

There are a number of people who say Pulisic is Dortmund's most important player this season

Who? He's the fourth most important player on the team at best.

Same type of things people used last year, they were sure Emre More was more talented because he does flicks and ****.

That was absolutely the reasoning, and totally relevant to why some people don't think Pulisic's ceiling is higher than top 5 in the Bundesliga.

This was from last season as a 17/18 year old. Same type of things people used last year, they were sure Emre More was more talented because he does flicks and ****. Stats proves it out that Pulisic is among the best U20's in the world, but hey, everyone's fave is better than Pulisic because they said so, no real reason is needed to back it up.

Pulisic was one of the most dangerous players in Germany

EXPECTED PER 90 MINS
PLAYER CLUB GOALS ASSISTS GOALS + ASSISTS
1 Arjen Robben Bayern Munich 0.39 0.36 0.75
2 Ousmane Dembele Borussia Dortmund 0.26 0.47 0.72
3 Shinji Kagawa Borussia Dortmund 0.29 0.41 0.70
4 Franck Ribery Bayern Munich 0.26 0.37 0.63
5 Emil Forsberg RB Leipzig 0.18 0.43 0.61
6 Paul-Georges Ntep Wolfsburg 0.25 0.28 0.54
7 Douglas Costa Bayern Munich 0.19 0.34 0.53
8 Christian Pulisic Borussia Dortmund 0.22 0.30 0.52
9 Marco Fabian Eintracht Frankfurt 0.31 0.13 0.43
10 Kerem Demirbay Hoffenheim 0.16 0.25 0.41
11 Salomon Kalou Hertha BSC 0.21 0.19 0.40
12 Joshua Kimmich Bayern Munich 0.31 0.09 0.40
13 Nicolai Muller Hamburg 0.26 0.13 0.39
14 Raphael Guerreiro Borussia Dortmund 0.24 0.15 0.39
15 Thiago Alcantara Bayern Munich 0.21 0.16 0.37

Pulisic has been one of the best teenagers in Europe since 2010-11

YEAR PLAYER CLUB EXP. GOALS AND ASSISTS PER 90 MINS
1 2016-17 Ousmane Dembele Borussia Dortmund 0.72
2 2013-14 Raheem Sterling Liverpool 0.67
3 2015-16 Dele Alli Tottenham Hotspur 0.58
4 2012-13 Julian Draxler Schalke 0.54
5 2015-16 Marco Asensio Espanyol 0.52
6 2015-16 Leroy Sane Schalke 0.52
7 2016-17 Christian Pulisic Borussia Dortmund 0.52
8 2015-16 Kingsley Coman Bayern Munich 0.51
9 2013-14 Bruno Fernandes Udinese 0.49
10 2015-16 Julian Brandt Bayer Leverkusen 0.47
11 2015-16 Ousmane Dembele Rennes 0.44
12 2013-14 Leon Goretzka Schalke 0.41
13 2012-13 Raheem Sterling Liverpool 0.41
14 2011-12 Julian Draxler Schalke 0.39
15 2010-11 Jack Wilshere Arsenal 0.37

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-great-american-soccer-hope-is-here-for-real-this-time/

That still doesn't make him a top 10 player in the Bundesliga. Those lists obviously favor attackers. No way is he even close to as good as Thiago for instance.

Expected stats is the ultimate lamest hipster stat. It's about "what could be but isn't".
I'd feel ashamed to use it.

Not sure what's more embarrassing; saying expected goals+assists is lame/meaningless or saying per 90 numbers are misleading.

 

[Ceremony]

I'm not reading any of this nor do I care but, and I know he was up against noted footballing luminary Scott Brown, but that boy Mbappe can move at some pace when he has the ball

make of that what you will, if anything at all

 

[Deficient Mode]

I'm not reading any of this nor do I care but, and I know he was up against noted footballing luminary Scott Brown, but that boy Mbappe can move at some pace when he has the ball

make of that what you will, if anything at all

Considering the only footballers you've ever praised are like Pirlo and Messi, any positive word from you is surely a sign a player is a legend in the making.

 

[Fro]

Interesting, all three ESPN analysts still say Dortmund advance over Spurs, I guess most experts expect at least one "Spursy" result in the round-robin.

don't take the words of a company that just wrote an article that headlines "Has Harry Kane outgrown Spurs"

the 4 letter has so many anti spurs articles in the last few months it's crazy

 

[Havre]

don't take the words of a company that just wrote an article that headlines "Has Harry Kane outgrown Spurs"

the 4 letter has so many anti spurs articles in the last few months it's crazy

Not really that strange.

1) Who are more likely to take points of RM? Dortmund
2) Who are more likely to lose points to APOEL? Spurs
3) Could Dortmund win 2-0 at home? Certainly

I thought it was going to be tight between Spurs and Dortmund going in and I still that is the case. I don´t think it is especially controversial to still consider Dortmund more likely to end up in the top 2.

 

[Evilo]

Not sure what's more embarrassing; saying expected goals+assists is lame/meaningless or saying per 90 numbers are misleading.

So, Ntep is dominating the BL then?
Right?
Right?

 

[Deficient Mode]

So, Ntep is dominating the BL then?
Right?
Right?

He played barely over 500 minutes on a team that barely staved off relegation. If you contextualize that number with the small sample size, it doesn't say he's dominating the league at all. He probably barely made the cutoff for minimum time played.

 

[Evilo]

Even so, that means that when he plays, he dominates.
Which is far from true.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Even so, that means that when he plays, he dominates.
Which is far from true.

His minutes also overwhelmingly came against low table teams. Played 40 minutes total vs Bayern and Dortmund, but other than that it was mostly other relegation candidates. So he has easier average competition than the guys who play most of the games. And over 504 minutes of playing time, 0.54 xG+xA per 90 comes out to 3.02 xG+xA total. In all probability, his numbers were skewed by him taking or assisting a point blank shot or two, and over a proper sample size they would have evened out. One surprising result doesn't necessarily invalidate the stat.

 

[Evilo]

Fine, you don't like the Ntep argument, let's use Costa or Kagawa having better advanced stats than Thiago Alcantara.

Those stats are meaningless. Players need to be judged on how they play and also on their end product.
Not on coulda, woulda, shoulda.

 

[Havre]

I don't really see a problem with supporting an argument with some stats as long as you aren't using them to with 100% certainty "prove" something.

To say stats are meaningless is classic Evilo hyperbole (I don't think he actually means that). Are those players on that second list better than the average player in that age group? I don't think anyone would disagree with that (attacking players of course). In other words, they do tell you something.

I have never seen anyone agreeing after first having disagreed on a player online. I love Pulisic, but I haven't seen enough of him to say if he goes Sterling or not. Not that I think you can ever know with someone that young, but does he have the mental toughness and smartness to take that next step? A lot of young players shine early, but can't handle being the center of attention later on. I think Sterling went that way. Bale is an example of a player that got better and better as he got more and more responsibility. If Pulisic falls down in the second category he will be amazing.

 

[maclean]

Personally I've always been a big fan of the "eye test"