GWT: Champions League Final: Real Madrid/Juventus

Discussion in 'Soccer' started by Halladay, Jun 1, 2017.

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  1. Asiantuntija

    Asiantuntija C.Ronaldo > L.Messi

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    Evilo has very biased option that's all i can say. If you don't realize that Platini's performance or career ain't nothing compared to Ronaldo there's no point to discuss about this. If we talk about talent then Ronaldo is right on top, his work ethic gave his chance to maximize the talent. Ask from Sir Alex Ferguson. Haters keep hating and Ronaldo keeps scoring that's the way it has always been.
     
  2. Evilo

    Evilo Registered User

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    Hey little boy, you have never even seen Platini play. So stick to Playstation and play with your toyboy.
     
  3. Corto

    Corto Faceless Man

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    Ronaldo's better IMO - but Di Stefano's special and alone in the history of world football in that he literally changed how club football would evolve.

    From the Civil War in Spain onwards, Real had won no championships until 1953.
    Atletico won 4, Barca 5, Sevilla, Valencia, but not Real.

    What changed was Real (and their president Santiago Bernabeu) building a seemingly stupidly big and unnecessary stadium - that would later prove vital in drawing in players, and then decided - in addition to building their own academy, the cantera - to try and sign international stars.

    They first tried with Kubala, but failed, as he went to Barcelona - much of the vitriol that Barca fans would later have with Di Stefano choosing Real, Real fans had with Kubala choosing Barcelona.
    There were calls of foul play, Barca agents getting him off the train when he was travelling to Madrid for negotiations, etc. - naturally, everything unconfirmed.

    When Real and Barca went after Di Stefano, he was playing in Colombia, for Millionarios - where he went after a strike in Argentina, and he was still under contract with River Plate.
    So Barca made a deal with River Plate (even paying part of an agreed fee up front) and Real made a deal with Millionarios.
    FIFA wouldn't allow him to play in Spain until all 4 sides gave consent (Millionarios, River Plate, Barca, Real).
    It was a mess, and it didn't get resolved right away - up went a ban on foreign players, then taken down, then a comission suggested Di Stefano plays 2 years for Real, 2 years for Barcelona etc...
    In the end, Real got him and it changed where club football went from there.
    The vitriol after the signing went the other way this time, Barca upset and angry, Real feeling vindicated after the Kubala thing.
    In the end, both players chose who they played for, even though there was different pressure on them (in the Di Stefano case, there were rumors of political influence, but as with Kubala, nothing ever confirmed).
    They ended up later playing together at Espanyol in their later years, funnily enough.

    Combined with the stadium, having Di Stefano and a decent local core (the great Paco Gento for one), they got in Raymond Kopa, Puskas, etc.
    They went from a club struggling to win a title in Spain to winning Spanish titles and winning 5 straight European Cups (and Di Stefano scored in every one of those finals).

    Di Stefano did for Real what Cruyff would do for Barcelona 35 years later - take them over the hump from a big club in their own right, to a super club that was always going to be a top contender and a lure for top players.

    (at the risk of sounding repetitive, Sid Lowe's "Fear and Loathing in La Liga" is an absolutely fantastic book, with insight into both teams, countless statements and interviews from players, managers and club officials in question - and is as unbiased as you can get on the subject of the Barca-Real rivalry.
    If you're looking for a good football book, check it out - it can give you another dimension and appreciation for these two clubs, each magnificent and each flawed in their own way... There really is nothing like it in the rest of the football world)

    ...

    It's very hard to judge as there's very little footage from that era, and football then was quite different back then - but by all accounts, Di Stefano was the world's best for a number of years; and again, the biggest reason why the club football (even today) looks the way it does.
    When you compare him to his peers, he's definitely up there with the greatest players who ever played.
     
  4. Deficient Mode

    Deficient Mode Registered User

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    Di Stefano was a way better all-around player than Ronaldo. He was all over the field doing just about everything. Hard to imagine dominance of that kind in the sport today.
     
  5. Asiantuntija

    Asiantuntija C.Ronaldo > L.Messi

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    Never seen Di Stefano play the game maybe he could be LeBron James of the football but can't deny the fact that Ronaldo is also pretty good all-around.
     
  6. Corto

    Corto Faceless Man

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    I've never seen Di Stefano play, I'd wager neither have you.
    I've read tons about him, but that's not watching him play. I've watched highlights, most notably of Real-Eintracht in Glasgow, but it's really hard to gauge that football vs modern football.
    But nothing I've read about him leads me to believe he was better than Ronaldo or Cruyff or Platini or Pele. He just played in a different era and never had the chance to impress on an international level.

    Like I said, he has a special place in history because of the circumstances around him - but doesn't necessarily mean he was better or more versatile than, say, Cruyff.

    As far as Ronaldo and his all-around playgoes, I know you don't agree on how and where he played on the pitch, but he actually did play as a pure winger until he was 25 or so.
    That he had seasons where he scored 42 goals from that position is astounding.
    I mean, just looking up his ManU highlights and you'll see where he is on the pitch:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7Gh3rj33co
     
  7. Luigi Habs

    Luigi Habs Captain Saku

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    Since 2014 Higuain lost 4 finals lmao
     
  8. les Habs

    les Habs Registered User

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    Despite what is posted being bad enough in the sense that it was even considered allowable that he sign with Madrid, there was more to it than that.
     
  9. Deficient Mode

    Deficient Mode Registered User

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    LeBron James is actually a good comparison for him, yes.

    I have. Not live of course.
     
  10. Billy Crawford

    Billy Crawford Registered User

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    I tend not to rate all-around play that highly when it comes to comparing attacking players, especially the most elite guys whose offensive skills are supposed to trump everything. I did see the Eintracht game along with a few ther highlights of Di Stefano but not enough to see for myself how much of an impact his all-around ability had on games. I mean for me he seemed to be mostly playing like a regular 9 at the time. I dunno...

    I do know though that there are several similarities between Di Stefano's and Ronaldo's careers (played with a super-club, won a bunch of stuff, were the star of the team and scored a bunch of goals) and at this point I'm tempted to say that CR7 has to be rated at least as high Di Stefano, all around play be damned.
     
  11. Deficient Mode

    Deficient Mode Registered User

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    No, no, and no
     
  12. The Abusement Park

    The Abusement Park Registered User

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    How is any of that incorrect?
     
  13. Deficient Mode

    Deficient Mode Registered User

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    I'm not referring to the statement in parentheses but the conclusions drawn from it
     
  14. Billy Crawford

    Billy Crawford Registered User

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    Can you back up your claim with things that you have actually seen and factual data? "No" is not an argument.

    My argument is that their circumstances are similar enough that you can compare their stats, and Ronaldo's stats do not pale in comparison to Di Stefano's.
     
  15. Deficient Mode

    Deficient Mode Registered User

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    Not gonna argue at length with people who think Cristiano is a top 10 player all time because of goalz. Not worth it. I've already said why I don't think he's that or anywhere close: he overwhelmingly finishes off chances created by others and doesn't surpass opponents on his own or add to buildup play. Yes, there is data to support that. You can find it yourself. If you post something like "all around play be damned" I'm not going to bother though.
     
  16. Asiantuntija

    Asiantuntija C.Ronaldo > L.Messi

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    Cristiano Ronaldo was totally different player in his time at Manchester United. He definitely surpassed opponents and gave huge strenght to buildup with ball.

    Nowadays he plays different way, more effectively, he learned how to play without the ball. If we take a look at it, it's easy to notice that Ronaldo is very big factor at Real Madrid buildup play. He doesn't make much buildup with the ball but his off-ball game is second to none. It leaves plenty of space to the rest of the team to create those chances because defenders are scared to guard him more than any other player of the world.
     
  17. Deficient Mode

    Deficient Mode Registered User

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    No

    and no
     
  18. Corto

    Corto Faceless Man

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    I mean, I can post random highlights from any game from Ronaldo pre-Ancelotti, or I can link articles how he changed his game when Ancelotti came, going from a winger and a wide attacking player to basically a rotating 2nd striker.

    But what I don't understand you simply not remembering how the dude played before the position switch.
    Here's highlights from 2008 and 2011 - that looks like a player who doesn't dribble or create on his own?
    And more importantly, look where most of that action is, where he takes the ball and where he plays.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6ox_62U1rE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lnIWm5mNuE

    Here's some quick articles on his role switch, just the first ones that popped up.
    https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/the-evolution-cristiano-ronaldos-game-over-years/2
    http://www.goal.com/en/news/14302/c...cr9-ronaldos-game-is-changing-to-allow-him-to
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...do-joins-illustrious-list-players-reinvented/


    Now that said, his goalscoring record and his team accomplishments is what separates him from the rest (again, other than Messi).

    You brought up the R9 comparison, for example, which is simply ridiculous.
    Ronaldo R9 was scoring 30 goals a season (at best) with the Galacticos (before we get into the quality of his teammates stuff, the. Galacticos.)
    Cristiano scored 50+ 6 times... I mean, how can you not see the massive gap lol.

    And in the end, the whole Tap-inaldo and Penaldo stuff is just silly.
    If it was that easy, surely you'd have loads of players do it before?
    Surely someone would've remembered to pop in 50 goals a year before Messi and Ronaldo came along.
    Dude has shattered record after record, while winning everything, playing either as winger and later forward/rotating striker.

    I normally respect your posts, but saying "no" and "no" and putting your fingers in your ears when it comes to some completely obvious stuff (like Ronaldo playing winger at ManU) is just childish.

    We can talk about guys like Platini and Cruyff (in my opinion Ronaldo's been better - but it's an entirely different era and different players, building a case for them is different and interesting and can be made), but comparisons to R9 or, even worse, to Cavani and Higuain etc.... I mean, why even go there...
     
  19. Deficient Mode

    Deficient Mode Registered User

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    Cristiano was always at his best as only a nominal wing player. He was immensely goal-oriented: focused on how he could get into position to take a shot. Way more so than even other wide players like Robben, who is also best known for his shooting. That is not a categorically bad thing since he is such a fantastic finisher, but it puts his goals into perspective. Saying "he scored so many goals AND he was just a winger" is well beside the point. It's not like that means United get his goals AND the same number of goals from their nominal central striker. Tevez and particularly Rooney were focused on setting him up. Tevez's goal-scoring rate was well below what it would be at City and Juventus, and Rooney's goal-scoring exploded when Cristiano (and Tevez) left the team.

    His pieces of "skill" that gave him credit as more than a poacher were often just pointlessly flashy and gave no advantage to his team at all; like a stepover no-look back heel to a teammate standing right next to him. He was a great counter dribbler when there was space behind his defender that he could play the ball into, and then outrun him, but he struggled a lot in more complex situations against more compact defenses. Other strikers didn't have the fortune to play so much of their careers with an all-time great team. Suarez only transferred to Barca late in his career or he would have had more 40+ goal seasons. Cavani toiled away next to Zlatan for much of his best years. After his 18 year old debut season, Higuain had a non-penalty goal every 104.6 minutes in La Liga for Madrid as opposed to Cristiano's mark of a non-penalty goal every 100.5 minutes in La Liga. Again, after his debut season, Higuain had a non-penalty goal or assist with Madrid every 74.1 minutes, as opposed to Cristiano's rate of a non-penalty goal or assist every 72 minutes. Of course Higuain split time with Benzema, who is a severely underrated striker and who is a better fit with Cristiano, the more marketable and highly reputed new signing. To act like Cristiano was head and shoulders above Higuain or other top strikers at their best - when they had a situation as favorable as Cristiano has had pretty much the entirety of the past 10 years - is misinformed. Many of these strikers simply couldn't reach a giant club straight away because of where they started - Suarez in Ajax - or were kicked out in favor of new flashier signings - Higuain in Madrid. They aren't simply "less consistent" than Ronaldo; their situation is less consistently good.

    R9's peak wasn't in Madrid, either. It was at Barcelona and then Inter. He had already been derailed by injuries at that point. As I said, Cristiano's longevity far surpasses R9's, but as his peak he simply wasn't as good. R9 was just a bit less physically dominant than Cristiano, but just as great of a finisher, and a far better dribbler and creative player.
     
  20. Corto

    Corto Faceless Man

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    Let's take R9's peak as his Barca year - because it was.

    47 goals overall, 34 in La Liga.
    Cristiano has SIX seasons better than that, and not slightly better either, each one with 50+ goals.
    FWIW, Barca didn't win the La Liga that year either, Real did, spearheaded by Suker+Mijatovic.
    And the comparison to R9's second best season makes it even worse.
    He was a magical play - but the whole point I'm trying to make is that Cristiano is just on another level compared to him.

    In the end, it only matters how much a player benefits their team and what they get out of it, how efficient he is.
    If Messi was just dribble in the middle of the pitch and no results, no goals etc. - he wouldn't be what he is either.
    And along with Messi, Ronaldo is the most efficient player ever - by far - goals and assists leading to multiple big trophies.

    And comparing Suarez, Cavani and freaking Higuain to Ronaldo is just taking it too far tbh.
    Two guys who have one 40 goal season each and a guy who's never scored 40 goals and is notorious for choking in big games. Come on, dude.
     
  21. Evilo

    Evilo Registered User

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    Ronaldo with Barca was incredible. Unstoppable and he created goals by himself from midfield as well.
     
  22. Deficient Mode

    Deficient Mode Registered User

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    I am talking about how players benefit their team, though. The things a player does when they aren't in a scoring position are part of how they benefit their team.

    Yep.
     
  23. Asiantuntija

    Asiantuntija C.Ronaldo > L.Messi

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    Ronaldo was excellent but sad he isn't even near of Cristiano Ronaldo level at anything. And that's not a option that's a fact.
     
  24. Deficient Mode

    Deficient Mode Registered User

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    An option
     
  25. Cassano

    Cassano nyeah eh

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    sav.
     
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