GWT: Champions League Final: Real Madrid/Juventus

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YNWA14

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Dec 29, 2010
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I've been saying for a long time that for the most part if you're with Barcelona or Madrid these days it's more about managing egos than it is about being a tactical beast. There's enough talent on those teams to beat anyone.
 

Wee Baby Seamus

Yo, Goober, where's the meat?
Mar 15, 2011
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I was being somewhat hyperbolic and I wasn't just referencing this thread. Guardiola was called into question with Barça back in the day because of the talent he had at his disposal. Where is the same narrative about Zidane?

I know you weren't just referencing this thread, but I still dispute the premise you're setting up. I think Zidane totally (and pretty justifiably, too) gets called into question. Zidane's talent, I'll agree with Curt, is ego management. He's not a tactical genius by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think anyone here pretends that he is.
 

les Habs

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I know you weren't just referencing this thread, but I still dispute the premise you're setting up. I think Zidane totally (and pretty justifiably, too) gets called into question. Zidane's talent, I'll agree with Curt, is ego management. He's not a tactical genius by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think anyone here pretends that he is.

Once again, I was being somewhat hyperbolic. And tell me, who has called Zidane into question like Guardiola was when he was winning? Or are you saying Guardiola was never called into question on this forum because of the talent at his disposal? Search function is your friend.
 

Wee Baby Seamus

Yo, Goober, where's the meat?
Mar 15, 2011
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Once again, I was being somewhat hyperbolic. And tell me, who has called Zidane into question like Guardiola was when he was winning? Or are you saying Guardiola was never called into question on this forum because of the talent at his disposal? Search function is your friend.

I wasn't around this forum during the peak Guardiola-Barca years, so on that I won't comment. But would you tell me who has been going on about the tactical prowess of dear Zizou? Search function can be your ally as well, and I'd argue it's more reasonable to ask it of you as you raised the premise in the first place.
 

Power Man

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I know you weren't just referencing this thread, but I still dispute the premise you're setting up. I think Zidane totally (and pretty justifiably, too) gets called into question. Zidane's talent, I'll agree with Curt, is ego management. He's not a tactical genius by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think anyone here pretends that he is.

He still outcoached Allegri
 

les Habs

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I wasn't around this forum during the peak Guardiola-Barca years, so on that I won't comment. But would you tell me who has been going on about the tactical prowess of dear Zizou? Search function can be your ally as well, and I'd argue it's more reasonable to ask it of you as you raised the premise in the first place.

Do you seriously need me to define hyperbolic?

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=122090691&postcount=305

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=132616717&postcount=477

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=131799021&postcount=154

There are also posts in this thread and the La Liga thread about rotations and such. If you watched Madrid the past year and a half, especially in the league, and consider that along with the Madrid squad relative to some of the narrative out there you'll easily see what I'm saying. And for the record this is coming from someone who thought it was smart to appoint Zidane when they did and who rates Zidane as a manager higher than probalby 98% of this forum does including yourself.
 

Wee Baby Seamus

Yo, Goober, where's the meat?
Mar 15, 2011
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Do you seriously need me to define hyperbolic?

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=122090691&postcount=305

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=132616717&postcount=477

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=131799021&postcount=154

There are also posts in this thread and the La Liga thread about rotations and such. If you watched Madrid the past year and a half, especially in the league, and consider that along with the Madrid squad relative to some of the narrative out there you'll easily see what I'm saying. And for the record this is coming from someone who thought it was smart to appoint Zidane when they did and who rates Zidane as a manager higher than probalby 98% of this forum does including yourself.

I'm​ perfectly comfortable with the definition of hyperbole, thanks, there was an implication in your post that, even if exaggerated, Zidane gets a lot of credit for his tactics here (even if not the extent of calling him a "mastermind"). I wasn't aware we were citing PowerMan and Asiantuija (spelling is definitely wrong, I'm on my phone) as sources :laugh: I too thought Zidane was a smart move at the time, and I still (even more so now) think he's the right man for the club, I just don't think he gets an undue amount of credit on this form, although the "that's the Zidane effect" (which I will note seems tongue-in-cheek, might not be though) is a solid point to the contrary.
 

les Habs

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I'm​ perfectly comfortable with the definition of hyperbole, thanks, there was an implication in your post that, even if exaggerated, Zidane gets a lot of credit for his tactics here (even if not the extent of calling him a "mastermind"). I wasn't aware we were citing PowerMan and Asiantuija (spelling is definitely wrong, I'm on my phone) as sources :laugh: I too thought Zidane was a smart move at the time, and I still (even more so now) think he's the right man for the club, I just don't think he gets an undue amount of credit on this form, although the "that's the Zidane effect" (which I will note seems tongue-in-cheek, might not be though) is a solid point to the contrary.

Like I said, there are other narratives out there. Most stacked bench in the game with the likes of Isco and Rodriguez and he gets a ton of credit for rotations.
 

The Abusement Park

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Wow...the CR7 hate is strong. Corto your making really good points and I really agree with you here. #2 all time may be up for debate but I think he's definitely in the conversation.
 

Evilo

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I mean:

A - he did win with Portugal, regardless of his injury in the final. Are people blaming Messi for not winning the WC and two Copas? (because if they are, they shouldn't... while they maybe should've done better vs respectable Chile teams in the two Copas, Germany was simply the better team with better players in the WC final)

B - like you said yourself, it was the flukiest team to win since 2002; because, you know, other than Ronaldo, they didn't have a lot of great players. Andre Gomes, Danilo, ancient Nani and Quaresma, etc... Is not really a great team.
So, what I'm trying to say, aside from this quite average Portugal team actually winning the EURO, what else would you like them to do?
You're imply that Ronaldo is at fault for not winning more major stuff at international level while saying at the same time the team was mediocre and a fluke... You can't have it both ways, tbh.


Cruyff didn't win it, Platini didn't, Maldini didn't, Baresi didn't, Weah didn't, Van Basten didn't, etc.
Football history is filled with players not winning the WC, whether it's because they were from smaller football nations of some other reasons (like Di Stefano).
Or simply that they ran into better teams who peaked at the right time (like Brasil in 82 running into Italy, for example).

Platini put up the most impressive EC performance ever, and arguably the best performance in a major football even EVER in EC 84.
So yeah...
He kicks Messi's and Ronaldo's ass internationally.
Messi is the better player but I wouldn't say Ronaldo is.
 

Evilo

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Possibly best performance ever in a major tournament. 9 goals in 5 games. Including the winning goal in the final.
 

Asiantuntija

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Ronaldo makes more impact to his team than Messi and this is my option. He has more abilities to score against good defenders. Messi is usually on shadows against top teams. Of course Messi can pass because Barcelona plays with most boring tactic ever seen on football field. Ronaldo would also be huge playmaker with same tactic.

Ronaldo is best player we ever seen on the football field. Beats legends like Maradona, Pele and Platini.
 

les Habs

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Sep 21, 2005
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Ronaldo makes more impact to his team than Messi and this is my option. He has more abilities to score against good defenders. Messi is usually on shadows against top teams. Of course Messi can pass because Barcelona plays with most boring tactic ever seen on football field. Ronaldo would also be huge playmaker with same tactic.

Ronaldo is best player we ever seen on the football field. Beats legends like Maradona, Pele and Platini.

:laugh: If you look at his avatar, he's the one on the right.
 

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
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The 10 goals in 5 games for Ronaldo against the likes of Bayern Munich, Atletico Madrid and Juventus in the finals is pretty damned impressive for the toughest competition in the world.
 

Evilo

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Not the toughest competition when you're already on the best team, with the best players. Most expensive team in football history.

Back when Platini, Cruyff or others played, plenty of teams could win. Now it's down to what... 3 (in the CL)?
It's also one of the reasons why Ronaldo and Messi shine much less with their NT. Not the same system, not the same teammates.
This is exactly why Platini's 84 EC performance is MUCH MUCH more impressive than this streak by Ronaldo (or any streak Messi put up for that matter).
 

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
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Not the toughest competition when you're already on the best team, with the best players. Most expensive team in football history.

Back when Platini, Cruyff or others played, plenty of teams could win. Now it's down to what... 3 (in the CL)?
It's also one of the reasons why Ronaldo and Messi shine much less with their NT. Not the same system, not the same teammates.
This is exactly why Platini's 84 EC performance is MUCH MUCH more impressive than this streak by Ronaldo (or any streak Messi put up for that matter).

Sure, plenty of teams could win but that didn't mean that they didn't have superior teams. Before the game was oversaturated with talent having a guy like Platini, or Cruyff, or Pele meant your team was already at an advantage -- it was a lot easier for a single player to make a big impact. It's why Maradona is a hero and considered by many to be the best ever.

When you score 10 goals in 5 games in the final stages of the CL against today's Bayern, Atletico and Juventus that is absolutely a massive achievement -- from any player regardless of how good the team is. Juventus only allowed 3 goals total in the CL before the final -- 1 goal against in 4 games against Barcelona and Monaco -- the two top offences in Europe.

Nostalgia clouds judgment and I get that, and I don't care to compare across eras precisely because of the changing landscape in soccer, but put today's Ronaldo or Messi in some of those older tournaments and they would absolutely dominate.
 

koyvoo

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Nov 8, 2014
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I've always felt that using Ronaldo in International comparisons is a tad unfair, although it's all one can do.

Portugal, as an historical international entity is generally not as deep or consistently competitive at a high level compared to the traditional powerhouses, aside from a few era's where the stars aligned to provide them with that quality as in the example of their "golden generation" with Figo and Rui Costa et all.

Right now (maybe for last 10+ years), Argentina is arguably at their shallowest in terms of that type of quality depth. Maybe.

The thing is that when bringing players who could at least be argued for top 5-10 GOAT (again, this is when using international comparisons), he's the only player who comes outside of the traditional footballing powerhouse nations (Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Italy, Spain, France and maybe Holland).

Before Portugal's aforementioned "golden generation" they didn't even qualify for tournaments. From the start of major international tournament's, Portugal qualified for exactly 3 until 1996. Since then, they've missed only 1 (France '98).

The golden generation brought the team up to top level rankings and qualifications were automatic for a while, but Ronaldo only played with them in very early years. After all those guys were gone, the depth of top quality taken dried up. Given the nations international football history, it could be argued that the only reason Portugal remained qualifying for tournaments and maintain top level rankings was because of him. He does have 46 goals in his last 59 internationals.

Does anyone not think that with he or Messi for that matter would not be WC champions if they were born (or naturalized lol) German or Spanish (in their era of playing)?

I think using Ronaldo in international comparisons, one must go back to thing of Platini in club play as an example. Portugal during his era was hardly an all star team. Most others GOAT nominees did post for international monster teams.
 
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