GWT: Champions League Final: Real Madrid/Juventus

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YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
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Lewandowski on the same level as Ronaldo? Oh my. Not sure how anyone who watched the CL knockout stage could think this.
 

les Habs

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Sep 21, 2005
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Since we're talking about context, let's add some further context to Ronaldo's numbers.

-By sitting out against the weaker La Liga sides he was well rested for the run-in portion of the season (specifically CL).
-He is essentially their striker now. Even with Benzema on the pitch, Ronaldo is the player they're all working for and looking to feed. He had twice as many shots per match as Benzema in the CL and almost twice as many in the league.
-Ronaldo has the 5th most appearances in CL history. Ahead of him? Casillas, Xavi, Raul and Giggs.
-Ronaldo plays on the most expensive team in history and the best team in the World at the moment with the best midfield.
-Ronaldo has played in five CL Finals.
 

koyvoo

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Nov 8, 2014
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Today I found out that some Messi fans want to discredit some of Ronaldo's achievements because of how good Madrid is, particularly their midfield? This when Messi, while collecting ballon d'ors played on the greatest club side ever assembled and the most offensively prolific midfield of all time? It may sounds like it's taking away from Messi here, but that's not the intent of my point, (I'm not a fanboy for either one, but rather both. Maybe that's why it's easier to discuss this with less emotion involved for me), but Messi played a significant portion of his prime with two other top 5 in the world players in Xavi and Iniesta. Yes, at that time, Barca had 3 top 5 players in the world.

After all these years I'm still amazed that these two players can reduce grown adults who dislike one or the other to start acting like children. I understand during the moment, but no one reads their posts a day or week later and feels no shame? Probably 90% of the arguments are emotionally driven with very little actual substance.

Imagine now, how stupid it would be reading 50 year old arguments about Garrincha vs Pele, but not a discussion, a pissing match that tries to tear one player down, while hyping their own. That's what you guys are doing.

To those that hate on Messi - how on earth can you not be floored by his god given, natural ability? By his artistry and creativeness or alien like dribbling abilities? Sorry, when you downplay arguably a once in a century talent in that regard, you only would silly.

This those they hate on Ronaldo - how can you not be amazed by the fact that he does not possess that natural ability but has the professionalism, desire and work ethic to reach those nights regardless of not being the most naturally gifted. How can you downplay a guy who, even at the summit, works on holes in his vane relentlessly until they are adjusted. Sorry, when this is also downplayed, you only sound silly.
 
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Deficient Mode

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This those they hate on Ronaldo - how can you not be amazed by the fact that he does not possess that natural ability but has the professionalism, desire and work ethic to reach those nights regardless of not being the most naturally gifted. How can you downplay a guy who, even at the summit, works on holes in his vane relentlessly until they are adjusted. Sorry, when this is also downplayed, you only sound silly.

Actually, this is precisely why I downplay him. He's a great player, but his value has always been exaggerated by the vast majority of football fans. I'm not a Messi fanboy by any means, either.
 

Hadoop

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After all these years I'm still amazed that these two players can reduce grown adults who dislike one or the other to start acting like children. I understand during the moment, but no one reads their posts a day or week later and feels no shame? Probably 90% of the arguments are emotionally driven with very little actual substance.

Imagine now, how stupid it would be reading 50 year old arguments about Garrincha vs Pele, but not a discussion, a pissing match that tries to tear one player down, while hyping their own. That's what you guys are doing.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Some people here just don't know when to let go of this ridiculousness (you know EXACTLY who you are guys), but obviously this goes for both Messi fanboys/Ronaldo haters and Ronaldo fanboys/Messi haters: enough is ENOUGH.
 

koyvoo

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Nov 8, 2014
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Actually, this is precisely why I downplay him. He's a great player, but his value has always been exaggerated by the vast majority of football fans. I'm not a Messi fanboy by any means, either.

But to me, that's his most amazing attribute. Ronaldo, with the work ethic of 99% of footballers, would have just had the career of a "very good winger". Maybe. But, it was his dedication to his craft that elevated him to where he is. There have been countless players with a more natural skill set than Ronaldo had who didn't get near his accomplishments. How about many of those players with tremendous natural ability, but average production and work rate?

At the end of the day, it's the results, the numbers. Both of them, although through different means, are killers beyond anything I've witnessed on the pitch in 30 years of being a fan.
 
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Corto

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Actually, this is precisely why I downplay him. He's a great player, but his value has always been exaggerated by the vast majority of football fans. I'm not a Messi fanboy by any means, either.

I don't think his value has been exaggerated, and I'm no fanboy.
For a long time I was a flat out hater because of his demeanor and persona etc. - but I've learned to respect what a fantastic footballer he is.

I think he's quite clearly the #2 of all time, behind Messi. He's won everything, and he's done it putting up such ridiculous numbers that seemed impossible until he and Messi showed up.
We can go into this again, but I'd rather not, it's all been said before.
His numbers absolutely dwarf anything ever put up by anyone except Messi.

Regarding their talent...
Yes, Messi's better and has more natural talent.
But I think it's very unfair to say that Ronaldo doesn't have talent in spades (not saying you said it, just a general observation)...
No matter his work and dedication and physical ability, he wouldn't be where he is without ridiculous amounts of talent.
 

Deficient Mode

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But to me, that's his most amazing attribute. Ronaldo, with the work ethic of 99% of footballers, would have just had the career of a "very good winger". Maybe. But, it was his dedication to his craft that elevated him to where he is. There have been countless players with a more natural skill set than Ronaldo had who didn't get near his accomplishments. How about many of those players with tremendous natural ability, but average production and work rate?

At the end of the day, it's the results, the numbers. Both of them, although through different means, are killers beyond anything I've witnessed on the pitch in 30 years of being a fan.

I'm not talking about talent without end product. If anything, Cristiano was the player whose technical ability was ineffective. Young Cristiano had lots of flashy stepovers and such but he frequently stood in place as he performed them, and rarely circumvented defenders when the defense was compact. He's a brilliant finisher and athlete, but his lack of creativity, poor decision making when not in scoring positions, bad defensive work, lacking pressing resistance, and the subsequent well below average performance vs good teams over his entire career - those things weigh far too heavily to call him the clear second best player of his generation, much less of all time.

I don't think his value has been exaggerated
I think he's quite clearly the #2 of all time, behind Messi.

Pick one of the above statements.

He's won everything, and he's done it putting up such ridiculous numbers that seemed impossible until he and Messi showed up.
His numbers absolutely dwarf anything ever put up by anyone except Messi.

In longevity, not in peak performance. Players today can stay healthier longer.
 

Corto

Faceless Man
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In longevity, not in peak performance. Players today can stay healthier longer.

I'm not sure what you mean. This isn't Jagr playing at 45 getting 50ish points and adding to a legendary total.
It's a player still quite clearly one of the world's best and a guy who just blew away Bayern, Atleti and Juve in the CL.

His longevity is that, like Messi, his best 7 or 8 seasons absolutely dwarf anything ever done by anyone other than those 2.

People used to top out and win scoring titles at 22-25 goals. 30 was considered out of this world.
Ronaldo da Lima scored 47 in a season ONCE and was a miracle (his next highest total was 35, 34, 31 and 30... and then some 20s).
Cristiano Ronaldo's scored 40+ goals 8 times. 50+ goals 6 straight times and 60+ goals twice.
Noone comes even remotely close (again, except GOAT Messi).
It's not like his longevity peaks out at 20 goals and he played 20 seasons, no - his peak, again, is miles ahead of anyone but Messi.

They (Messi and Ronaldo) have completely moved the goal posts in scoring standards, it's like having Gretzky and Lemieux in football.

He's won 4 CLs top scoring all of them.
He's got double the amount of goals as the next person in CL quarters, semis and finals, he's got more goals and assists in CL knockout stages than anyone else.
He's definitely shaken off whatever "non-big game player" tag people were applying to him.
If anything, this was a season in which a lot of people saw him as less self-absorbed and less plastic and egoistic than usual, agreeing to Zidane's rotations and basically taking himself out of any scoring title races in La Liga.

Pick a striker, pick a player. Any single one. Compare him to Ronaldo (and Messi), compare the numbers and accomplishments, and you'll see how stupid these have been - and how privileged we've been to watch them for their whole careers.
Remember, neither of them played an out-and-out striker for most of their careers (Ronaldo has changed his game the last couple of years, but for the majority of his career, he was a winger/wide striker)

They have absolutely shattered all records, winning every club title in the process, and Ronaldo's still only 32, while Messi will only be 30 in June.

There have been great players, with great peaks and with good longevity.
From Kubala, Di Stefano, Pele, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Maradona, Platini, Ronaldo da Lima, Zidane, Ronaldinho, etc... Era defining footballers.
But nothing ever quite like this, nothing quite like Messi and Ronaldo. Nothing at these peaks, and not for this long.

Put it this way, the only thing stopping Messi from having 10 Ballon d'Ors is Ronaldo, and vice versa.

I realize people defend one by crapping on the other, but its really not necessary.
We will likely never see anything like these two again, at least not at the same time, stars alligned for this.
Just enjoy it while we can, they're not getting any younger.
 

Deficient Mode

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Mar 25, 2011
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I'm not sure what you mean.

His longevity is that, like Messi, his best 7 or 8 seasons absolutely dwarf anything ever done by anyone other than those 2.

Injuries. The careers of past top players were far more easily derailed.

People used to top out and win scoring titles at 22-25 goals. 30 was considered out of this world.
Ronaldo da Lima scored 47 in a season ONCE and was a miracle (his next highest total was 35, 34, 31 and 30... and then some 20s).
Cristiano Ronaldo's scored 40+ goals 8 times. 50+ goals 6 straight times and 60+ goals twice.
Noone comes even remotely close (again, except GOAT Messi).

And how many other guys have scored over 30 goals in the past couple of seasons? Aubameyang, Lewandowski, Cavani, Ibra, Higuain (broke Serie A record), Suarez (also scored 40). League average scoring curve in Spain has risen and continues to rise to levels not seen since the 70s. Ditto in other leagues.

Cristiano's scoring doesn't stand out nearly as much if you set aside the penalties either. His career non penalty goals per 90 minutes is basically neck and neck with Brazilian Ronaldo, for instance.

It's not like his longevity peaks out at 20 goals and he played 20 seasons, no - his peak, again, is miles ahead of anyone but Messi.

It's really not.

They (Messi and Ronaldo) have completely moved the goal posts in scoring standards, it's like having Gretzky and Lemieux in football.

The posts are being moved and they're carried by a current of higher scoring more than they themselves are moving the posts:

CPWe5rSWgAAGn98.png:large


Remember, neither of them played an out-and-out striker for most of their careers (Ronaldo has changed his game the last couple of years, but for the majority of his career, he was a winger/wide striker)

Not this again

I realize people defend one by crapping on the other, but its really not necessary.
We will likely never see anything like these two again, at least not at the same time, stars alligned for this.
Just enjoy it while we can, they're not getting any younger.

We will see more players like Cristiano. Of that I'm confident.
 

Corto

Faceless Man
Sep 28, 2005
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And how many other guys have scored over 30 goals in the past couple of seasons? Aubameyang, Lewandowski, Cavani, Ibra, Higuain (broke Serie A record), Suarez (also scored 40). League average scoring curve in Spain has risen and continues to rise to levels not seen since the 70s. Ditto in other leagues.

There've been players scoring 30 for the odd season, like I said. From Gerd Müller to Hugo Sanchez.
None scored so many, none scored for such a long time at that ratio.
Müller was probably the closest.

Across all competitions...
Auba's scored 40+ league goals once (this season, exactly 40).
Cavani once (this season, 49 in total)
Lewa twice (42 and 43).
Ibra twice (50 and 41).
Higuain never.
Suarez twice (once in Barca - 59, once for Ajax - 49).

You'd think these players you're citing having fantastic years and putting these numbers once or twice, and Ronaldo putting up much better number 8 times puts it into perspective...
Messi obviously also goes into that higher tier, but we're talking about Cristiano here since he's the one you're disputing.

Cristiano's scoring doesn't stand out nearly as much if you set aside the penalties either. His career non penalty goals per 90 minutes is basically neck and neck with Brazilian Ronaldo, for instance.


I'm still baffled by the "Penaldo" rubbish.
First of all, except Suarez, where Messi takes penalties, all those strikes take penalties. Ibra, Higuain did in Napoli, Cavani, Lewa, all regular penalty takes in their best season (obiously Higuain doesn't take them at Juve, and Cavani didn't take them while Ibra was at PSG)... Auba takes some, though from what I've watched of BVB, not always (?).

Oh, and Ronaldo R9 took penalties. At PSV, at Barca, at Inter, at Milan, at Real.
Everywhere he went, he took penalties.


And just to throw it out there, percentage of penalties out of total goals scored:
Messi - 13,10%
Cristiano Ronaldo - 15,67%
Ronaldo Nazario da Lima - 13,33%

With Madrid, Cristiano Ronaldo has taken 86 penalties so far.
Messi's taken 80 with Barca. That's 6 penalties. SIX.

Hardly the difference where you'd label one "Penaldo" and apply that logic only to him.

Not this again

I'm not following... Is there somehow doubt that Ronaldo (and Messi) have not been playing center forward/striker their whole careers?

In his ManU season, where he really took off with goalscoring, Ronaldo played wide right with Giggs left and Tevez and Rooney in the middle. He had 31 league goals that year (9 outside of the box) and 42 in all competitions.
Yes, Ferguson changed stuff up a bit to hinder the opposition and due to injuries here and there (in the CL final vs Chelsea Ronaldo played left, higher up, with no Giggs, and Haargraves played right, but more defensively; or vs Roma where Park played right and Ronaldo in the mddle), but for most of the season, yes, he was playing wide.

...

Anyways...
For me, Messi is the GOAT, and Ronaldo is the #2.
With no offence to other great players of the past, especially the ones in different positions.
Again, they put out outworldly numbers while their teams keep winning everything, shattering records and dominating in their own way.
 

Evilo

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Mar 17, 2002
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Don't think Ronaldo is #2 alltime.
Someone like Pele, Cruyff, Platini brought more to their teams, and didn't have allstar teams around them most of their careers.
 

Corto

Faceless Man
Sep 28, 2005
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Don't think Ronaldo is #2 alltime.
Someone like Pele, Cruyff, Platini brought more to their teams, and didn't have allstar teams around them most of their careers.

Pele is hard to gauge, as his club career was spent overseas. The level of competition just wasn't the same.
Obviously, he was scoring like a madman AND won 3 WCs, so one can easily make a case for him as top-3 all time (though I think for both him and Maradona there's more than a little of nostalgia when people are accessing what they've done).

Cruyff was amazing, he's my favorite player from that time.
He was the key cog in Ajax winning the EC and was a dream player for Holland.
But he ultimately didn't win with some great Holland sides and his Barcelona career ultimately fell short of what looked was going to be an culture-changing team (he was amazing the first year, won the La Liga, and it looked like he was going to do for Barca as a player what he later did for them as a manager... but he started to fall off from his 2nd season onward and it never really happened).

Platini is probably among the most underrated among the football greats, partly because he played in Maradona's time. He did wonders for both Juve and the french national team and is unrightly rarely mentioned in the same tier as Maradona or Pele etc.

In my opinion, neither was better than Cristiano, certainly didn't have the individual and team accomplishments.
But, we're not talking about pure strikers here (well, in case of Cruyff and Platini), and we can have a nice old discussion.

As for the all-star teams...
You can't really apply that to Ronaldo without applying it to Messi.
Or a bunch of other (recent) superstars, who almost exclusively ended up on star-filled teams at one point or another.
(though I agree with you that it wasn't possible to create such powerhouses until the removal of cap on foreign players - for example, even the great Milan teams had to rely on 8 Italians in the starting 11 - whether it was Gullit, Riijkaard and Van Basten playing, or later Savicevic, Desailly and Boban, the bulk of the side was home-grown, and had to be)
 

Deficient Mode

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I'm still baffled by the "Penaldo" rubbish.
First of all, except Suarez, where Messi takes penalties, all those strikes take penalties. Ibra, Higuain did in Napoli, Cavani, Lewa, all regular penalty takes in their best season (obiously Higuain doesn't take them at Juve, and Cavani didn't take them while Ibra was at PSG)... Auba takes some, though from what I've watched of BVB, not always (?).

Oh, and Ronaldo R9 took penalties. At PSV, at Barca, at Inter, at Milan, at Real.
Everywhere he went, he took penalties.


And just to throw it out there, percentage of penalties out of total goals scored:
Messi - 13,10%
Cristiano Ronaldo - 15,67%
Ronaldo Nazario da Lima - 13,33%

With Madrid, Cristiano Ronaldo has taken 86 penalties so far.
Messi's taken 80 with Barca. That's 6 penalties. SIX.

Hardly the difference where you'd label one "Penaldo" and apply that logic only to him.

Not how I would frame the topic to be honest. He has taken 6 more penalties in La Liga... in ~3.5 fewer seasons and 191 fewer appearances than Messi.

With Barca:
Messi: 62 goals of 510 were penalties (12.16%)

With Real:
Cristiano: 72 goals of 406 were penalties (17.73%)

With European clubs (Real, Inter, Barca, PSV, Milan):
Ronaldo: 32 goals of 264 were penalties (12.12%) (Only 10 of 145 for Real and Barca)

Significant difference there.

I'm not following... Is there somehow doubt that Ronaldo (and Messi) have not been playing center forward/striker their whole careers?

In his ManU season, where he really took off with goalscoring, Ronaldo played wide right with Giggs left and Tevez and Rooney in the middle. He had 31 league goals that year (9 outside of the box) and 42 in all competitions.
Yes, Ferguson changed stuff up a bit to hinder the opposition and due to injuries here and there (in the CL final vs Chelsea Ronaldo played left, higher up, with no Giggs, and Haargraves played right, but more defensively; or vs Roma where Park played right and Ronaldo in the mddle), but for most of the season, yes, he was playing wide.

No, it's that it simply doesn't matter. Cristiano was extremely goal-oriented just about his entire career. The nominal difference of whether he was a central striker or not is pointless.
 

bluesfan94

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Jan 7, 2008
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Pele is hard to gauge, as his club career was spent overseas. The level of competition just wasn't the same.
Obviously, he was scoring like a madman AND won 3 WCs, so one can easily make a case for him as top-3 all time (though I think for both him and Maradona there's more than a little of nostalgia when people are accessing what they've done).

Cruyff was amazing, he's my favorite player from that time.
He was the key cog in Ajax winning the EC and was a dream player for Holland.
But he ultimately didn't win with some great Holland sides and his Barcelona career ultimately fell short of what looked was going to be an culture-changing team (he was amazing the first year, won the La Liga, and it looked like he was going to do for Barca as a player what he later did for them as a manager... but he started to fall off from his 2nd season onward and it never really happened).

Platini is probably among the most underrated among the football greats, partly because he played in Maradona's time. He did wonders for both Juve and the french national team and is unrightly rarely mentioned in the same tier as Maradona or Pele etc.

In my opinion, neither was better than Cristiano, certainly didn't have the individual and team accomplishments.
But, we're not talking about pure strikers here (well, in case of Cruyff and Platini), and we can have a nice old discussion.

As for the all-star teams...
You can't really apply that to Ronaldo without applying it to Messi.
Or a bunch of other (recent) superstars, who almost exclusively ended up on star-filled teams at one point or another.
(though I agree with you that it wasn't possible to create such powerhouses until the removal of cap on foreign players - for example, even the great Milan teams had to rely on 8 Italians in the starting 11 - whether it was Gullit, Riijkaard and Van Basten playing, or later Savicevic, Desailly and Boban, the bulk of the side was home-grown, and had to be)

What has Ronaldo actually won internationally? I mean, Portugal won the Euros but Ronaldo barely played in the final and that was the flukiest team winning since 2002. Ronaldo didn't even get out of the group in 2014.
 

Adonis Creed

King of the East
Apr 13, 2015
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Good performance by Madrid...

disgusting diving by Ramos up 3-1....just not needed. I hope 1 day every time somebody dive you give them 2 games ban after video review.
 

Corto

Faceless Man
Sep 28, 2005
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Not how I would frame the topic to be honest. He has taken 6 more penalties in La Liga... in ~3.5 fewer seasons and 191 fewer appearances than Messi.

With Barca:
Messi: 62 goals of 510 were penalties (12.16%)

With Real:
Cristiano: 72 goals of 406 were penalties (17.73%)

I chose the "penalties taken" stat simply because Messi's missed 18 and Ronaldo less.
Full stats are here: http://www.michelacosta.com/en/messi-vs-cristiano-ronaldo-penalties-missed-and-scored/

Either way, the difference is so small that labeling him "Penaldo" and putting some sort of asterisk on his ridiculous scoring records because of penalties seems petty to me.


With European clubs (Real, Inter, Barca, PSV, Milan):
Ronaldo: 32 goals of 264 were penalties (12.12%) (Only 10 of 145 for Real and Barca)

Significant difference there.

Fair enough, I just took his career stats and measured against career stats of Ronaldo. Which was that 15,67% to 13,33%.

Either way these are the top scoring seasons for both:
61, 60, 55, 53, 51, 51, 42, 42.
47, 35, 34, 31, 30, 24, 24, 23.

I mean, one is not like the other.
Yes, R9 had health issues, but the difference in numbers, and ultimately individual and team (club) accomplishments is staggering.



No, it's that it simply doesn't matter. Cristiano was extremely goal-oriented just about his entire career. The nominal difference of whether he was a central striker or not is pointless.

But it does matter. He played a right winger in Fergie's United, for example, with the responsibilites that came with playing a winger in a 4-4-2.
If he played left (with no Giggs), he played further up the pitch, but mostly he was that winger on the right in the 4-4-2. Offensively, he'd interchange with Tevez or Rooney if needed (even though most of his goals were some sort of combination from the wing or flat out goals from distance - 9 out of the 31 in the league), but on defense he played support to Wes Brown or whoever manned the right side.

His role changed after the first year in Madrid, even under Mou, but he was still the wide striker and didn't live off service in the box as he does nowadays.

It matters, even without defensive responsibilites that he had in Manchester, for example, is that all of the great goalscorers of the past were "poachers".
It sounds bad, but it isn't. Müller, Hugo Sanchez etc. made a living off one-touch goals.
Hugo Sanchez, when he came to the "Quinta" Real side, scored 29 goals in his first season with them - ALL OF THEM one-touch goals.
There were strikers capable of creating stuff from deep on their own (Ronaldo da Lima, for one), but having a player like Messi or Ronaldo not take up the position of central striker means you can have an actual striker playing there.
Creating and getting such ridiculous number of goals from the wing and deeper in (like Messi) was unheard of until they showed up.
Well, Cruyff was all over the place, to be fair, and Platini top-scored in Juve, but neither came close to the numbers of Ronaldo and Messi.
 

Corto

Faceless Man
Sep 28, 2005
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What has Ronaldo actually won internationally? I mean, Portugal won the Euros but Ronaldo barely played in the final and that was the flukiest team winning since 2002. Ronaldo didn't even get out of the group in 2014.

I mean:

A - he did win with Portugal, regardless of his injury in the final. Are people blaming Messi for not winning the WC and two Copas? (because if they are, they shouldn't... while they maybe should've done better vs respectable Chile teams in the two Copas, Germany was simply the better team with better players in the WC final)

B - like you said yourself, it was the flukiest team to win since 2002; because, you know, other than Ronaldo, they didn't have a lot of great players. Andre Gomes, Danilo, ancient Nani and Quaresma, etc... Is not really a great team.
So, what I'm trying to say, aside from this quite average Portugal team actually winning the EURO, what else would you like them to do?
You're imply that Ronaldo is at fault for not winning more major stuff at international level while saying at the same time the team was mediocre and a fluke... You can't have it both ways, tbh.


Cruyff didn't win it, Platini didn't, Maldini didn't, Baresi didn't, Weah didn't, Van Basten didn't, etc.
Football history is filled with players not winning the WC, whether it's because they were from smaller football nations of some other reasons (like Di Stefano).
Or simply that they ran into better teams who peaked at the right time (like Brasil in 82 running into Italy, for example).
 

bluesfan94

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It was fluky because of how they did it. They didn't win a game in the group stage and went through as a third place team. They only won one game in the knockout phase in regular time. The team was superb defensively apart from the game against Hungary.
 

Corto

Faceless Man
Sep 28, 2005
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It was fluky because of how they did it. They didn't win a game in the group stage and went through as a third place team. They only won one game in the knockout phase in regular time. The team was superb defensively apart from the game against Hungary.

I'm agreeing with you - but what I'm saying is, had they not won, it would hardly be fair to blame Ronaldo for not winning such a mediocre team.
 

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
34,543
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I don't understand really why people knock penalties as though they're not legitimate goals. Most of the penalties that Ronaldo and Messi score are won by...Ronaldo and Messi. Plus scoring a penalty is still a skill.
 

les Habs

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Sep 21, 2005
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Not how I would frame the topic to be honest. He has taken 6 more penalties in La Liga... in ~3.5 fewer seasons and 191 fewer appearances than Messi.

With Barca:
Messi: 62 goals of 510 were penalties (12.16%)

With Real:
Cristiano: 72 goals of 406 were penalties (17.73%)

Exactly. Here is the context. Penalties taken as an illustration of goals is laughable. Furthermore, the "small" difference is 5%.

Speaking of laughable, since we had a couple ("you know EXACTLY who you are guys" :laugh: ) of laughable posts on it yesterday, I'll just say that context isn't about discrediting anyone including Ronaldo. There have been some... let's say "interesting" comments in this thread that needed some context and surely some more that could use some context.

What's also amusing are the "if someone's saying that about Messi then they should be corrected" lines. The commentary about Messi on this forum has been there for a long time and yet nobody was on their period when that was going on. Someone actually mentioned Xavi and Iniesta as if we haven't heard that argument a million times. It's like with Zidane. When it was Guardiola it was a fluke because of the squad he had but with Zidane it's because he's a tactical mastermind.
 

Wee Baby Seamus

Yo, Goober, where's the meat?
Mar 15, 2011
14,704
5,715
Halifax/Toronto
Exactly. Here is the context. Penalties taken as an illustration of goals is laughable. Furthermore, the "small" difference is 5%.

Speaking of laughable, since we had a couple ("you know EXACTLY who you are guys" :laugh: ) of laughable posts on it yesterday, I'll just say that context isn't about discrediting anyone including Ronaldo. There have been some... let's say "interesting" comments in this thread that needed some context and surely some more that could use some context.

What's also amusing are the "if someone's saying that about Messi then they should be corrected" lines. The commentary about Messi on this forum has been there for a long time and yet nobody was on their period when that was going on. Someone actually mentioned Xavi and Iniesta as if we haven't heard that argument a million times. It's like with Zidane. When it was Guardiola it was a fluke because of the squad he had but with Zidane it's because he's a tactical mastermind.

With the exception of a few comments acclaiming Zidane after the UCL Final (all of which had a tone of being surprised at his ability to pull it off, I might add), every one here has been, from what I've seen, pretty realistic with the fact that Zidane is far from being a tactical maestro. Saying that Guardiola doesn't get his due credit may or may not be true, but to say that Zidane is thought of as a "tactical mastermind" on this forum is straight-up incorrect.
 

les Habs

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
22,236
3,964
Wisconsin
With the exception of a few comments acclaiming Zidane after the UCL Final (all of which had a tone of being surprised at his ability to pull it off, I might add), every one here has been, from what I've seen, pretty realistic with the fact that Zidane is far from being a tactical maestro. Saying that Guardiola doesn't get his due credit may or may not be true, but to say that Zidane is thought of as a "tactical mastermind" on this forum is straight-up incorrect.

I was being somewhat hyperbolic and I wasn't just referencing this thread. Guardiola was called into question with Barça back in the day because of the talent he had at his disposal. Where is the same narrative about Zidane?
 
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