Champions Hockey League Gameday Discussion 2019/2020

Discussion in 'International Tournaments' started by Go Donbass, Sep 1, 2019.

  1. SwedeChristoffer Registered User

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    Frölunda was better than Mountfield in the round robins.

    However the QF and SF also gives you points that determine wether you are a home or an away team.

    Frölunda had more points than Mountfield before the SF. However since Mountfield won both their games, whereas Frölunda lost the first SF, Mountfield now has more points. Thus they play the Final at home.
     
  2. SoundAndFury Registered User

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    The most impressive thing is that Hradec Kralove really isn't very good in the Czech league this year... Really shows how much the CL results are worth.
     
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  3. Slimmy Registered User

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    The teams are there because of what they did last season in the domestic league, not what they've done this season. Teams that are participating in the CHL have seen major roster changes since last season. That's just how it is with hockey in Europe. It's also early in the season. Teams may not have all spots filled at the start of the CHL or they're simply not in playoff form. To be a regular contender in both the domestic league as well as the CHL you need continuity and depth. Not many teams in Europe can afford this, which makes Frölunda 's accomplishments even that more impressive.
     
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  4. SoundAndFury Registered User

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    What I meant is Hradec Kralove is objectively not a very good team this year, they are 9th in the Czech league after 2/3 of the season. And yet they are in the CHL final, they have even won both games in the semis. Proving that CHL, much like in football (remember Liverpool winning the CL but finishing 5th in the EPL), is completely different animal and people who use CHL results as a measuring stick of team's strength or, more importantly, league's strength (NLA gets so much slack because their results are bad, for example) should not do that.
     
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  5. Czechboy Registered User

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    It means very little in the big picture but I love that the Czechs got a team to the finals of the Spengler Cup and Champion's League! Really happy for both teams and hope for a good turnout in the final in this very odd tournament.
     
  6. Slimmy Registered User

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    You're taking one teams lackluster league results to discount an entire tournament. Not very scientific. You look at the tournament from its inception up untill this point and it paints a much clearer picture. There are a few odd results here and there but there is a constant and that is the SHLs dominance. It shows what I wrote of earlier. Out of all the leagues represented in the tournament, the SHL is the most consistent. The SHL sends contenders each year despite early schedule, heavy roster changes, etc. That shows the strength of the SHL and that to me is undeniable.
     
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  7. SoundAndFury Registered User

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    Was anyone trying to deny SHL's dominance? Or discount the tournament entirely? Point is CHL provides very little of such definite evidence as SHL dominance everyone would agree on.

    There has been loads of "odd results" people have used to fit their narrative afterward. Not even talking about the odd win here and there almost every team (no matter how bad) gets in this competition teams like Rouen or Storhamar got into the elimination round. And here we have the team which is at risk of missing the playoffs completely in Extraliga but is also, in theory, one of the two strongest teams in Europe.

    CHL results are a crapshoot. This is just another piece to the mountain of evidence. Important though one, this being the finals and all. I don't really see why are you so defensive about it.
     
  8. Slimmy Registered User

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    You are not understanding what I am trying to relay to you. The CHL results are not a crapshoot. It can be logically explained and certain conclusions can be drawn, keeping in mind the factors and variables I have already explained to you. With that we can determine that the SHL is the de facto strongest league outside of the KHL. The CHL results is in fact proof of this. However, we can not with certainty draw many conclusion as to which the strongest team is at this very moment. That is a different issue. If you see it differently then please make an effort and explain where in my reasoning you see faults.
     
  9. Czechboy Registered User

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    I don't think you can use a tournament without KHL teams to determine anything about the strongest league in Europe. Imagine a World Championships without Canada? It has about as much relevance as the Spengler Cup for determining league superiority.

    The CHL has low attendance and viewership. I don't think anyone takes it that seriously. It has to be the least prestigious 'cup' in the entire hockey world.

    I admit I don't follow it that closely but when I do watch (TSN now shows games) I see a lot of backup goalies and star players sat. 2 seasons ago, Kometa Brno was on back to back league championships and they were in the quarters (I think) and I was so excited to see some of my favourite players.. they didn't bring any of them.

    I do agree with the other poster (we're not particular fans of one another by the way) that the fact a 9th place Extraliga team made the finals only shows to prove how odd this tournament is. If you want to argue this shows SEL dominance in Europe than I could argue that 'if our 9th best Extraliga team could make the final than our best one could win this easily and Czech hockey is on the rise!'. Or that 2 different Czech teams made the Spengler and CHL cup finals so the Czechs clearly have a better program because no KHL or SEL team did that. It'd be a ridiculous argument.

    The tourney is not that valuable. I doubt most Euro hockey fans could even tell you who won the last 3 tourneys. The Canada/Russia thread went about 170 pages deep before being closed. That was one game. This is an entire tournament and we are on page 6.

    If you want to argue the SEL is the 2nd best league in Europe than you should start with how many SEL players are drafted into the NHL, or how many elite Dmen come out of that league. Even free agents that leave your league to go to the NHL (eg. Nygard is doing well for himself). I doubt anyone would have a counter for those numbers. However, 'does really well in the CHL' doesn't really hold much. With 100 Swedes in the NHL and roughly 40 Russians your argument becomes easy to make. Sweden also might have the most NHL players per capita argument? Eg. 10 million Swedes created 100 NHL players. Canada might have that one though.

    I do agree SEL is a shade above the 3 to 7 groupings though (Finns, Swiss, Czechs, growing German league). It's a beautiful league and I wish the Czechs could come close to recreating it. But I do cringe a bit when I read 'dominance' and that CHL proves it. It's also an interesting thing to argue... this proves we're the second best.
     
  10. SoundAndFury Registered User

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    Ok, so please logically explain to me why Hradec Kralove didn't make it out of the group stage last year (Rouen made it out of their group) and is in the finals this year? Why did Djurgardens reach the SHL finals last year and didn't make it past Storhamar (!!!) in the CHL?

    Sure it can all be explained somehow in hindsight but nobody has the infinite wisdom to predict any of that beforehand. That's why it's a crapshoot, that's why it's unpredictable and that's why the smaller statistical packages, like the comparison between EIHL, Belarus, French and Slovak leagues, that would be really interesting, largely cannot be done because just like you said one needs to go and retroactively explain myriad of factors and variables. One would need to go from using CHL results as hard data to having to explain factors and variables that made the data that way. Because no kind of logic can just explain why a Czech mid-table team loses to Rouen in 18/19 but pretty cleanly wipes out Djurgardens on their way to the final in 19/20 even though they are having their historically worst season domestically.

    Again, nobody is disputing SHL is the strongest, CHL or no CHL, every sane person understands it. But that's the issue, CHL can only definitely provide evidence that's otherwise obvious anyway.
     
  11. Ciccarelli Uncle Gelart

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    The reason is a mixture of two things. A) some of the teams still do not take this 100%. All of the teams would prefer to win, but are not playing as if it was the play offs of their domestic leagues. I think this is bound to change over time as prestige and money builds. B) what ive been saying every year during the competition: the cap between the teams is not as big as people here make it out to be. I think that without the SHL participating we wouldve seen teams from multiple leagues winning already. And still most of the teams have a chance. For instance, I got laughed at a couple of years ago when I said that Salzburg could win it all. I mean sure, they wouldnt stand a chance to take the SHL championship but CHL as a tournament format is a completely other animal. Anything can happen. Besides, id imagine close to 100% of the players participating are professional, so its not fathers vs. sons in any game.
     
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  12. pukovnik Registered User

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    Can we say that Croatian soccer league is best in europe (or one of the best) because majority of our NT players came from Dinamo (and Hajduk). How many players were drafted from SEL tell us about how good junior development is in Sweden, but some other things make league strong(er), like salaries, tv-money, quality of imports, and after all results in CHL, after almost six seasons (which is solid-ish sample) of this competition we can say that SHL league is 2nd best quality wise in Europe. When I watched games between NLA (best money after KHL) teams and SHL I clearly saw there is better depth on SHL team, some random 3rd liner on SHL team skates better, shoots the puck better, stickhandles better than his swiss counterpart.
     
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  13. Czechboy Registered User

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    No one is arguing that SEL isn't 2nd best. Not that I can see. I'm not.

    I'm sorry but I don't get the Croatian soccer reference (not because it is a bad one but because I know nothing about Croatian soccer other than beautiful jerseys and they seem to do well at Euro's and World Cups).

    You don't need the CHL as proof. It's just not a valid tool. Maybe it'll get better but, right now, it's just a random tournament that doesn't proof anything.

    Let me illustrate:

    upload_2020-1-16_12-36-23.png

    Using the last 4 tournaments...

    An Extraliga team has been in the finals twice. Sparta in 2016 and Mountfield in 2020.
    2 Extraliga teams finished in top 4 in 2017
    One Extraliga team finished in Top in 2018

    So, in the last 4 tournaments, Czech teams (coincidentally 5 different teams from a small league) have finished
    2nd, 3rd/4th, 3rd/4th, 3rd/4th and at least 2nd this year 5 Top 4 finishes in 4 years)

    In the same 4 year span... 1 swiss team finished 3rd/4th.
    1 German team finished 2nd.
    1 Austrian team finished 3rd/4th
    1 Finnish team finished 2nd


    If you had a medal table... Czechs are clearly in 2nd place behind Sweden! In fact, it's not even close.

    Using the 'CHL proves SEL is the second best league in the world' I could just as easily say the Czechs are clearly the 3rd best league in Europe. 5 Top 4 finishes from 5 different teams in 4 years.

    Throw in that the Czechs took out a Swiss and KHL club in the Spengler for more 'proof'. Only thing that stopped was a non Euro team in Canada.

    As bag a fan as I am, I know that argument makes no sense. Czech league is weak.
     

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  14. SoundAndFury Registered User

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    What I realized from this is that once Extraliga teams (a lot of them. at least, Kometa being great counterargument) reach playoffs they probably go after that CHL money pretty hard. Why NLA teams blatantly don't care. And it would make sense, CHL prize money means a whole lot more to the Czech teams than their Swiss counterparts who are at least 2-3 times richer by default.
     
  15. Slimmy Registered User

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    You are also missing the point I'm trying to make. If you sit your best players in a CHL game and lose it is because you do not have enough depth on your roster to field a team that can be competitive in both the domestic league and the CHL. If a team feels the need to focus all their resources on the domestic league and sees the CHL more as a burden it is because it does not have the financial muscles, depth or talent on the roster to compete in both the CHL and the domestic league and be competitive. That's the core of the issue here. I'm not trying to make the point that the CHL is a prestigious tournament that every team dreams of winning. However, Swedish teams have managed to find success both in the domestic league and the CHL. That tells me that they can afford to take the CHL seriously. We have a large enough sample size at this point to draw conclusions from the results in the CHL. And what it tells me is that the continued dominance of SHL teams in the tournament is a good indication of the SHL teams financial stability, roster continuity, talent, depth along with being well run organizations with a great hockey youth ecosystem.

    On another note, If a Czech 9th place team can best the Swedish 9th place team or 10th (or wherever Djurgården sits in the SHL standings right now) its not much of an upset. Extraliga is a good league.
     
  16. Slimmy Registered User

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    I had a very long-winded answer typed out in my post but managed to click. A link as I was typing on my phone..

    .. Single game upsets do happen. But it is not a crappshoot. You can safely determine that over the course of several tournaments you will find more teams from a strong league finding success in the CHL.
     
  17. Slimmy Registered User

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    I absolutely believe that NLA teams have been going full throttle the last few tournaments. Their struggles have surprised me somewhat as well. But that doesn't mean we can discount the results. They do tell us something. They tell me that NLA teams have lived in a bubble and the CHL results should come as a wake up call. Extraliga is a good competitive league. It is certainly not weak.
     
  18. SoundAndFury Registered User

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    We aren't talking about single-game upsets. We are talking about the 30th-best team in Europe making the finals after 12 games. We are talking about 2-3 teams from some of the worst leagues in the competition making it out of the group stage every year.

    You keep repeating the same mantra about the SHL but how about addressing any number of points contradicting your argument? Yes, we have all agreed about the SHL. How about everything else? Teams like Storhamar or Rouen have like 3-5 players that could play in the major European leagues at all, in any role. And yet they have made the playoffs. Not by winning a "single-game upset" but by winning enough games to finish 2nd in the group.

    So that contradicts your argument even more. How come those are the two teams there? How come two below-average teams meet in the semifinal of this "best on best" competition? The only person who wouldn't be surprised by this is the one who accepted the fact this competition is total chaos and nothing surprises him. But evidently this isn't chaos because over an infinite number of games SHL would still be the strongest...

    It's not that we are missing the point, we just don't agree.
     
  19. pukovnik Registered User

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    Because in 18/19 they deserved to play in CHL by finishing high enough in their leagues ?!
     
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  20. SoundAndFury Registered User

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    What? What does it have to do with playing in SEMIFINAL? We aren't talking about the group stage here, we are talking about the 4/32 best in THIS competition THIS year.

    An interesting fact, all the other 4 Swedish teams in this competition are in the top-5 of the SHL. The other 3 Czech teams are 2nd, 3rd and 6th. And yet we have what we have in the finals. At least all the Swedish team made it out of the group stage, for a change.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  21. Slimmy Registered User

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    We've seen teams from Norway or Brittain find success in the tournament, sure. But it does not contradict my point. It enforces my point. These teams do not concistently find success in the tournament. They might make it out of group stage one year and the next they are hardly a factor at all. That a team like Storhammar would win the tournament is highly unlikely. Yet, you seem to claim that we might as well have Storhammar against Cardiff in the finals this year. After all it's a total crappshoot. Strange, then, that this has never happened. I will and I have conceded in the past that the tournament format with pre season games is sub optimal. But it is not nearly as chaotic as you claim. The leagues with the most success in the later rounds of the tournament are the ones you could expect. Sweden, Czech Rep, Finland, Switzerland and Germany.

    As to your point that a team currently ranked well below another team both representing the same league finds more success than the latter. This can be explained as well. The gap between the teams in their individual domestic leagues is not particularly big. The tournament format has the individual teams seeded in different groups with teams from other leagues. The teams could therefor find themselves in a group with tougher competition. Hence, one team might have an easier road to the latter rounds. That is one scenario. Still, it does not discount anything I've written.
     
  22. SoundAndFury Registered User

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    Sounds like a pretty good phrasing of what I'm saying. Albeit it can be applied to almost any team.
     
  23. Czechboy Registered User

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    I can't illustrate it any better than the medals table. CHL results prove that the Swedes and Czechs have the best 2 leagues in Europe. One of those is not like the others. In fact, if the president of the Czech federation is showing these same stats to 'prove' the Extraliga is doing great, then he should be fired.
     
  24. Czechboy Registered User

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    So the counter to this point is the medal table that I linked above. Using your argument that the CHL proves this about the SEL... then it also proves this about the Extraliga because they are, by and far, the 2nd most successful nation in the last 4 years.

    Absolutely no one believes that the Extraliga has financial stability, roster continuity, talent, depth and are run with a great hockey youth ecosystem.

    SEL absolutely does and that is a fact with or without the CHL. I hope it's clear that I think the SEL is amazing... the CHL is not. It's not an indicator of anything. I've already said there are lots of ways to prove the SEL is the second best league in Europe with all the things you said above. However, I don't know a single person that is arguing that the SEL is the 3rd best or 4th best league in Europe.

    Also, that table shows the average attendance is around 3500... that is low!
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
  25. vorky @vorkywh24

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    I am of the same opinion as Rene Fasel. So, such a competition should be the ultimate goal of all clubs, to be the most prestigious competition on the continent - sport-wise and financial-wise. The current CHL is not that. And never will be. You can say it needs time. Yes, agree, but it needs some other things like clubs´ & fans interest, financial reward, diplomacy, the best players (so not playing your 2nd/3rd squad comparing to domestic league & the best teams & leagues. The current CHL has nothing of that. Sadly.

    Fasel has said many times - they are doing it wrong, they have too many teams. He proposes the model of 2008-09, so only two teams per league, champion and regular-season winner.
     
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