Confirmed Trade: [CGY/CAR] Noah Hanifin and Elias Lindholm for Dougie Hamilton, Michael Ferland, and Adam Fox

[bleedgreen]

Lindholm belongs at center. Peters wouldn’t do it for essentially three and a half years worth of his time. Each year he got two or three games in the middle then back to wing, and in other years Peters would state that Lindy belonged out there on the wing despite the kid looking like a completely different player in those two or three games. This year for the last 20 games he put him in the middle and the kid looked obviously like a center, again. This time Peters seemed to like it and said it was an option moving forward.

Lindy not playing center was enough for me to say it’s ok we trade him if they won’t olay him there. Set him free somewhere else and let him develop. It’s pretty ironic he’s going back to Peters.

 

[bleedgreen]

hes what 20?

We’ve watched him for 3 years. Yes I get it, he’s 21 but I’ve watched Pronger and that development and other players. There were special things going on even when they we really young. I completely agree he has a lot of time and I hope he starts figuring things out.

The first month or two at least you’re going to love the skating and he IS becoming more confident offensively. He will join the attack and he wants to make the difference offensively. You’ll love that actually. Having Hamonic there will be a very good thing. Hanifin can skate well enough to get back almost every time. Problem is who he picks up on the way back. He loses guys, can’t figure out where to be, has very poor instincts on coverage in general. Doesn’t “feel” guys getting position on him. I’ve never seen any age defenseman so many times looking to the heavens trying to figure what went wrong and how the puck went in when the guy he originally should’ve had was the culprit.

He really lost steam in the second half and even the offense was gone. I remember a quote of his sometime over the last two seasons, where he admitted he had NEVER been coached defensively. They just told him to go do his thing. He basically started from scratch with the Canes which explains a lot about how he got here like this and how it’s gone since.

He is only 21. I know the things I say sound easily correctable and normal for a young d. All I can say is I’m not surprised the Canes gave up on him, and while it was still early enough to maximize some value. Even without the regime change I thought it very possible. The contract talk was a smoke screen, they barely talked to Hanifin. They made a decision early on he was a guy they wanted to use to make the changes.

And if there was one play where you just really wondered about his future with the Canes it was this one, which happened after the sale with the new owner watching and publicly vocally wondering what was going on with this team down the stretch...

The last goal at the 35 second mark.

https://youtu.be/QdQVtc3xwSc

 

[THall4]

This trade will help CGY down the road as I think Hanifin has a much higher ceiling than that of Hamilton's but today is nowhere near as good offensively has Hamilton. Ferland produced well with Johnny and Monahan....Fox wasn't going to sign.

Lindholm is a decent 2nd line 40-45 point producer.

Saying that...WTF is in the water the Oilers and Flames give their GMs....

Chiarelli last year ...Strome in for Eberle
BT last year ... Hamonic in for 2018 1st (Noah Dobson), 2nd (Ruslan Iskhakov) and 2nd in 2019/20

 

[Skin Tape Session]

We’ve watched him for 3 years. Yes I get it, he’s 21 but I’ve watched Pronger and that development and other players. There were special things going on even when they we really young. I completely agree he has a lot of time and I hope he starts figuring things out.

The first month or two at least you’re going to love the skating and he IS becoming more confident offensively. He will join the attack and he wants to make the difference offensively. You’ll love that actually. Having Hamonic there will be a very good thing. Hanifin can skate well enough to get back almost every time. Problem is who he picks up on the way back. He loses guys, can’t figure out where to be, has very poor instincts on coverage in general. Doesn’t “feel” guys getting position on him. I’ve never seen any age defenseman so many times looking to the heavens trying to figure what went wrong and how the puck went in when the guy he originally should’ve had was the culprit.

He really lost steam in the second half and even the offense was gone. I remember a quote of his sometime over the last two seasons, where he admitted he had NEVER been coached defensively. They just told him to go do his thing. He basically started from scratch with the Canes which explains a lot about how he got here like this and how it’s gone since.

He is only 21. I know the things I say sound easily correctable and normal for a young d. All I can say is I’m not surprised the Canes gave up on him, and while it was still early enough to maximize some value. Even without the regime change I thought it very possible. The contract talk was a smoke screen, they barely talked to Hanifin. They made a decision early on he was a guy they wanted to use to make the changes.

And if there was one play where you just really wondered about his future with the Canes it was this one, which happened after the sale with the new owner watching and publicly vocally wondering what was going on with this team down the stretch...

The last goal at the 35 second mark.

https://youtu.be/QdQVtc3xwSc

good post, I appreciate it. I dont watch the cannes as a leafs fan. Things have not gone well down there foir some time. reminds me of schenn. all the potential to be adam foote but was left to dry by wilson and co. If you dont have the right coach it all goes bad. Hell even lidstrom needed boman to help devolp him. Its too bad we didint get him, i would have happily given nylander straight up for him. Despite leafs fans saying no now, if in 2015 you said you can have hanifin and marner in this draft for nylander,90 percent would say hell yeah.

I think he will turn it around out west, he has to or he will get eaten

 

[madmike77]

For me as a Flames fan, the thing that sucks most is Fox not being willing to sign with the Flames. I guess the question is if it's because he doesn't want to play in Calgary, whether he thinks the Flames have too much D depth (with Anderson and Valimaki almost certainly still ahead of him), or whether he just wants to do his 4 years and pick his own team. The U.S. college draftees are really becoming a bit of a risk. The Flames did land Gaudreau, Jankowski and Gillies but they also lost Hickey and Fox.

 

[Bando]

This trade will help CGY down the road as I think Hanifin has a much higher ceiling than that of Hamilton's but today is nowhere near as good offensively has Hamilton. Ferland produced well with Johnny and Monahan....Fox wasn't going to sign.

Lindholm is a decent 2nd line 40-45 point producer.

Saying that...WTF is in the water the Oilers and Flames give their GMs....

Chiarelli last year ...Strome in for Eberle
BT last year ... Hamonic in for 2018 1st (Noah Dobson), 2nd (Ruslan Iskhakov) and 2nd in 2019/20

There is nothing similar between those trades, one the GM got a top 4 defenseman the other the GM got a boarderline NHL player. Hamonic will have a better career then noah dobson, HF can be nuts with its valuation of draft picks. "hamonic isnt worth a first because maybe we could draft a hamonic!"

 

[Snakepit]

From Freidmans 31 thoughts

3. Last summer, when Calgary traded for Hamonic, the Flames fought hard to keep Adam Fox from the Islanders. Before Round 1 on Friday, Flames GM Brad Treliving made his final pitch to Fox’s advisor, Matt Keator. Treliving wasn’t going to risk losing him for nothing.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[The Gnome]

As a flames fan I won't lie to myself, CAR, as of today, won this trade. However, that's just the vacuum approach. BT said there was potential signing issues with Fox, which would have left us with nothing anyways.

So Lindholm+Hanifin for Hamilton+Ferland. It's fine, CAR gets the best player, we get two cost controlled assets who have more potential than the guys we sent out. Lindholm is also a much more complete player than Ferland, so it upgrades our top 6 and gives us a RHS.

I'm not mad, but I do know both Lindhom and Hanifin have to preform for this to be worth it now and into the future.

EDIT: Generally when you see these boards being very polarized over who won the trade, it was probably a pretty even trade.

 

[THall4]

There is nothing similar between those trades, one the GM got a top 4 defenseman the other the GM got a boarderline NHL player. Hamonic will have a better career then noah dobson, HF can be nuts with its valuation of draft picks. "hamonic isnt worth a first because maybe we could draft a hamonic!"

LOL

You can confirm this based on what?

Dobson was drafted into the NHL 2 days ago ....and hes got a ceiling Hamonic could only dream about when he was the same age. Hamonic is what he is..a #4 RHD ...how can you say for certain Dobson wont be more than that?

FWIW - Strome is more than a borderline NHLer...he just didn't pan out as the top 6 FWD everyone thought he would. He had a pretty solid season when placed at 3C last year.

 

[NotOpie]

65 points would be very surprising to me. That’s 50% over his best production to date. Improvement is one thing, but that would put him in a different tier of player. He’s shown a pretty consistently lower ceiling than that to date.

I think he'd need a huge part of that 65 to be assists. He just doesn't have the quality shot to ring up a massive goal number. He's kind of a Swiss Army Knife type of player. Does most things ok. Does nothing great. I admit that I think he has been misused in Carolina (ironically by Peters) and maybe had more to give. We shall see.

Like I said, I think 50-55 points is doable, but 60-65 isn't out of the question....I'm not saying he's going to hit that number, just that with those linemates it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[SenzZen]

I'm not commenting on value at all, but I will just say that- as an outsider- I'm surprised the Flames moved Ferland.

 

[The Gnome]

I'm not commenting on value at all, but I will just say that- as an outsider- I'm surprised the Flames moved Ferland.

Not super surprising though, he's a UFA after next year and will wanna get paid (if he has any success in CAR). He posted career numbers playing with Gaudreau and Monahan. Kid has skill, but he's way to inconsistent for the top 6, yet he'll likely command top 6 salary. Basically, I imagine Calgary would've let him walk in that case, so good time to cash in now.

 

[Bando]

LOL

You can confirm this based on what?

Dobson was drafted into the NHL 2 days ago ....and hes got a ceiling Hamonic could only dream about when he was the same age. Hamonic is what he is..a #4 RHD ...how can you say for certain Dobson wont be more than that?

FWIW - Strome is more than a borderline NHLer...he just didn't pan out as the top 6 FWD everyone thought he would. He had a pretty solid season when placed at 3C last year.

And you can confirm that dobson will be better and they should not have traded away a first round pick for hamonic? The odds that dobson will be better then hamonic are like what 20%? It works both way there bud, you are criticizing me for the exact thing you did in your previous post. Hypocrit.

 

[Johnnybegood13]

For me as a Flames fan, the thing that sucks most is Fox not being willing to sign with the Flames. I guess the question is if it's because he doesn't want to play in Calgary, whether he thinks the Flames have too much D depth (with Anderson and Valimaki almost certainly still ahead of him), or whether he just wants to do his 4 years and pick his own team. The U.S. college draftees are really becoming a bit of a risk. The Flames did land Gaudreau, Jankowski and Gillies but they also lost Hickey and Fox.

Fox won't be signing with Carolina either if there's a chance he'll start in Charlotte, Fox wants to be gifted an NHL job, He reads the scouting reports and press reports saying he's the next "so an so" ....In his mind college is his development.

I fully expect he'll sign with the Oilers Aug 2020

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Fox won't be signing with Carolina either if there's a chance he'll start in Charlotte, Fox wants to be gifted an NHL job, He reads the scouting reports and press reports saying he's the next "so an so" ....In his mind college is his development.

I fully expect he'll sign with the Oilers Aug 2020

Justin Schultz all over again. Also why the Oilers? He has no connections (At least not from what we know) with Edmonton, Edmonton no offense isn't the most attractive city, and he's far closer to home if he signs with Carolina.

 

[Reinhart]

I'm not commenting on value at all, but I will just say that- as an outsider- I'm surprised the Flames moved Ferland.

Treliving spoke at length a couple of times since the trade, and stated more or less that it hurt to lose Ferland. Canes were adamant about Ferland as they really wanted to upgrade their physicality. I don't think that Treliving could have made that trade without Ferland, unless he substituted an even more valuable player.

Will be curious to see how Ferland does in Carolina. I am of the mindset that he is still improving as a player. He is one of those prototypical late bloomers. Every year he seems to put more of his game together. The skill is often on display, but it doesn't come together often enough, hence the consistency issues. One thing about him though, is if you throw him on a top line, he can work well with gifted offensive players. No room for him there? Throw him in the bottom 6 and tell him he needs to hit guys through the boards. He is 'coachable'.

 

[93LEAFS]

Fox won't be signing with Carolina either if there's a chance he'll start in Charlotte, Fox wants to be gifted an NHL job, He reads the scouting reports and press reports saying he's the next "so an so" ....In his mind college is his development.

I fully expect he'll sign with the Oilers Aug 2020

If he signs elsewhere I doubt its Edmonton.

What will happen, is he'll be hyped up as a lock to sign for the Rangers as a local kid (although he's from Long Island) and most college guys sign there. Then he'll end up signing for Boston doing the exact opposite of Vesey and Kevin Hayes (who were viewed as likely Boston players).

 

[Johnnybegood13]

Justin Schultz all over again. Also why the Oilers? He has no connections (At least not from what we know) with Edmonton, Edmonton no offense isn't the most attractive city, and he's far closer to home if he signs with Carolina.

I'm just assuming the Oilers will still need a flashy puck mover in 2 years.

 

[L13]

As a Flames fan I'm not unhappy with the players we're getting back but with the trade itself. Hanifin's pro career started out somewhat timidly, but he's growing into a pretty good defenceman and can probably become an elite player if he keeps developing at this rate. My issue is that Hamilton is already elite.

My biggest problem, however, is that while Lindholm is an upgrade on Ferland, so is Hamilton on Hanifin, therefore we're getting nothing back for Fox. He's completely superfluous in this trade. I get that he may have been unwilling to sign with the Flames, but they should have been able to get at least a second-round pick for him in that case. Total asset mismanagement, in addition to the pointlessness of trading Dougie.

 

[Michoulicious]

I think Carolina has the advantage here.

Speculation, but I think a lot of this trade has to do with the negociations around Lindholm and Hanifin RFA contracts. These are players that looked to be paid for their potential and not for what they have accomplished in the NHL, and that is a risk I think Carolina smartly avoided. Never been a Lindholm fan, the guy is for now a 45 points center, and never showed he could pivot a power play or a first line... Don't think he'll get better linemates in Calgary. Hanifin has potential, but I still value Hamilton quite a bit more.

Hamilton is a proven first pair RD signed cheap for 3 mores years and is undoubtly the best player in the deal. Ferland is a a player that has proven to be able to score 20 goals with good linemates and that brings grit on a regular basis. His performance against Vancouver a few years back was something special.

Fox is a bit of a wildcard, since it is not clear if he'll want to sign in Carolina either, but getting a proven player like Hamilton out of the deal is sufficient for me to say Carolina had a good trade. The rest is icing on the cake.

However, even if they come out winner on the value part of the deal, they traded two of their best assets without adressing their glaring need at center, and that is more problematic though. Who's gonna pivot that first line? Rask? Necas? Not looking too good at the moment... And the competition for O'Reilly/Stastny is going to be fierce.

 

[BinCookin]

As a Flames fan I'm not unhappy with the players we're getting back but with the trade itself. Hanifin's pro career started out somewhat timidly, but he's growing into a pretty good defenceman and can probably become an elite player if he keeps developing at this rate. My issue is that Hamilton is already elite.

My biggest problem, however, is that while Lindholm is an upgrade on Ferland, so is Hamilton on Hanifin, therefore we're getting nothing back for Fox. He's completely superfluous in this trade. I get that he may have been unwilling to sign with the Flames, but they should have been able to get at least a second-round pick for him in that case. Total asset mismanagement, in addition to the pointlessness of trading Dougie.

Something had to change overall... Calgary really underperformed last year compared to how good they should be on paper.

 

[blankall]

As a Flames fan I'm not unhappy with the players we're getting back but with the trade itself. Hanifin's pro career started out somewhat timidly, but he's growing into a pretty good defenceman and can probably become an elite player if he keeps developing at this rate. My issue is that Hamilton is already elite.

My biggest problem, however, is that while Lindholm is an upgrade on Ferland, so is Hamilton on Hanifin, therefore we're getting nothing back for Fox. He's completely superfluous in this trade. I get that he may have been unwilling to sign with the Flames, but they should have been able to get at least a second-round pick for him in that case. Total asset mismanagement, in addition to the pointlessness of trading Dougie.

Fox not wanting to sign automatically downgrades his value to a 2nd round pick.

Given that both Ferland and Hamilton will be UFAs long before Lindholm or Hanifin, Calgary had to add assets. Not sure how you can say Calgary had bad asset management here. They ended up with two very young promising players in a deal that included two players who probably would walk for free.

 

[Kranix]

Treliving got a good young defenseman and he didn't even have to trade a Hart Trophy forward.

 

[GoldiFox]

Fox not wanting to sign automatically downgrades his value to a 2nd round pick.

Given that both Ferland and Hamilton will be UFAs long before Lindholm or Hanifin, Calgary had to add assets. Not sure how you can say Calgary had bad asset management here. They ended up with two very young promising players in a deal that included two players who probably would walk for free.

Hamilton time to UFA: 3 years
Hanifin time to UFA: 4 years

Ferland time to UFA: 1 year
Lindholm time to UFA: 2 years

Flames add one year to each position and give up up 5-7 RFA years of Fox.

Certainly the Flames can sign Hanifin and Lindholm to longer-term deals and buy out UFA years. However I wouldn't count that against the Canes for two reasons: 1) It isn't known if the Canes actually wanted to buy out UFA years for these two guys and 2) it isn't known if these two players were willing to sign any deal past their 7 required years.

If Flames fans are going to make an argument of "Fox isn't really a minus because he wouldn't sign with the Flames" then they must also recognize the argument of "Extra bought UFA years for Lindholm/Hanifin aren't really a minus for the Canes because the Canes either didn't want or didn't have the opportunity to acquire them".

 

[Rubi]

I think those people saying that Fox is worth a 2nd round draft pick are being overly generous. I suspect that there's a 90% chance that he will play 4 years at Harvard, get his degree (and a Harvard degree is nothing to sneeze at), and become a UFA and pick the team that he wants to play for. I think, under the current circumstances, that a 5th round pick would be the best you could get for Fox's NHL rights.