Cat to the table: Auston Matthews vs Patrik Laine

Better player?


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nobody

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Aug 8, 2017
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Who’s been a better player through they’re career Ovechkin or Malkin? Can you evaluate they’re career PP and ES points and Goals for me? No that’s called an excuse.
I asked you a simple question. You could've just said no [mod].
 
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biotk

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Jan 3, 2017
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Cumulative totals include both players streaks and valleys. It is all the data we have.

If your method of determining that Laine is better (has more career goals and more career gpg), would have actually meant that Matthews was better all season long up until 8 - 10 ago than it is a stupid method to use. This shouldn't be hard to understand.

If Matthews is back next game (who knows) and plays his last 13 games like he did the last 13 games of last season, and Laine plays his last 14 games this season like he did the last 14 games last season, Matthews would surpass Laine in career goals per game, and be just behind in career goals. A small number of goals can easily shift things.
 

StatisticsAddict99

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Feb 24, 2017
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I asked you a simple question. You could've just said no [mod].

[mod] I responded accordingly, if you want to evaluate ES Points and PP and every other different scenario you can, but it doesn’t matter because all Points and Goals are equal when it comes to helping your team win. That’s all I’m saying
 
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Tralfamadore

Don't Panic.
Sep 25, 2011
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If your method of determining that Laine is better (has more career goals and more career gpg), would have actually meant that Matthews was better all season long up until 8 - 10 ago than it is a stupid method to use. This shouldn't be hard to understand.

If Matthews is back next game (who knows) and plays his last 13 games like he did the last 13 games of last season, and Laine plays his last 14 games this season like he did the last 14 games last season, Matthews would surpass Laine in career goals per game, and be just behind in career goals. A small number of goals can easily shift things.

This is so dumb :laugh:
 

nobody

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Aug 8, 2017
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[mod] I responded accordingly, if you want to evaluate ES Points and PP and every other different scenario you can, but it doesn’t matter because all Points and Goals are equal when it comes to helping your team win. That’s all I’m saying
I'm not denying any of that. I was just asking you to give us a breakdown since you were bringing up stats.
 
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StatisticsAddict99

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Feb 24, 2017
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I'm not denying any of that. I was just asking you to give us a breakdown since you were bringing up stats.

I don’t wanna be looking up stats for 20 minutes though, because once you break down every scenario that’s when things get to over complicated, but if you want to do it I’m sure you could find the stats at hockey reference.
 

biotk

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Jan 3, 2017
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This is so dumb :laugh:

That is the whole point genius. It is just as stupid comparing two players for career goals and career goals per game at the exact, and only time this season that the player you prefer is ahead when he had been behind in both categories for the entire season up until a week ago. That you think the one is laughably dumb, but not the other, just shows your bias.
 

Lays

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Jan 22, 2017
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Yea timing on this thread is obviously sketchy but it was always Matthews and will be going forward
 

Peggy

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Aug 6, 2016
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It’s not I myself said Matthews deserved to win the Calder... He played more games, had more points and had more goals, he deserved it. It’s fair to make an argument for PPG and GPG, but the issue with that is whenever Jets fans did it they got ridiculed, and now that what happened to Laine is now happening to Matthews in a worse degree it’s now okay to assume Matthews is having a better season. Nope, I don’t think that should slide..

at the end of season Matthews did end up having the better season

he had 40 goals, more points and played more games

my only issue is how everyone wrote laine off in the middle of the season why laine was scoring at a higher rate and even had more points

at that point laine should've been a head in Calder voting
but nope
"Matthews plays centre, laine is riding off scheifele, age doesn't matter blah blah blah"
 

biotk

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Jan 3, 2017
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Can you separate their PP and ES numbers for even more in depth analysis? Laine certainly has been lights out on the PP over his career to this point. And if you do advanced stats, add in quality of competition faced as well! Thank you :)

I will give PP and 5v5 (as I feel that 5v5 is more valuable than straight ES)

5v5

Laine 141 GP, 1887 TOI, 41 goals, 31 assists (16 primary, 15 secondary) 72 points. 1.30 G/60, 2.29 P/60 (Laine's 5v5 QoC is in the 64th percentile, 7th among Jets forwards for 2018).
Matthews 137 GP, 1948 TOI, 53 goals, 27 assists (18 primary, 9 secondary) 80 points. 1.63 G/60, 2.46 P/60 (Matthew's 5v5 QoC is in the 97th percentile. 12th highest among NHL forwards and first on the Leafs for 2018).

PP

Laine 141 GP, 408 TOI, 27 goals, 14 assists (7 primary, 7 secondary) 41 points. 3.98 G/60, 6.04 P/60

Matthews 137 GP, 319 TOI, 10 goals, 18 assists (9 primary, 9 secondary) 28 points. 1.88 G/60, 5.27 P/60.
 

StatisticsAddict99

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Feb 24, 2017
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at the end of season Matthews did end up having the better season

he had 40 goals, more points and played more games

my only issue is how everyone wrote laine off in the middle of the season why laine was scoring at a higher rate and even had more points

at that point laine should've been a head in Calder voting
but nope
"Matthews plays centre, laine is riding off scheifele, age doesn't matter blah blah blah"

Yeah it’s all subjectively in Matthews favour. If Laine was drafted by the Leafs he’d be seen as the better player and be favoured overall. Anyways there are too many excuses, Laine is currently better until Matthews can prove otherwise
 

teravaineSAROS

Registered User
Jul 29, 2015
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"so it's correct time to step up and offer solution"

...no it's not, all it is is a perfect time to create a ****storm allover again
 

teravaineSAROS

Registered User
Jul 29, 2015
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Everybody's baiting on it starting this pointless debate allover again thinking anyone's coming out any smarter
 

LeafsNation75

Registered User
Jan 15, 2010
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Toronto, Ontario
at the end of season Matthews did end up having the better season

he had 40 goals, more points and played more games

my only issue is how everyone wrote laine off in the middle of the season why laine was scoring at a higher rate and even had more points

at that point laine should've been a head in Calder voting
but nope
"Matthews plays centre, laine is riding off scheifele, age doesn't matter blah blah blah"
So how come when Bob McKenzie did his midseason poll Matthews was the run away winner for best rookie and he said this was done prior to Laine getting his concussion.

Crosby, Burns and Matthews top coaches' poll - Article - TSN

4. Who's the best rookie this season?

And the winner is...Auston Matthews.

The Toronto Maple Leaf centre dominated in the same fashion as Burns did in defenceman voting. Matthews received 20 votes compared to four for Winnipeg's Patrik Laine.

The only other rookie to get a vote was Columbus blueliner Zach Werenski (one).
 

olli

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Dec 2, 2016
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Matthews is the better overall player but they are very close offensively and I think Laine has a slightly higher offensive ceiling.
 
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biotk

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Jan 3, 2017
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Yeah it’s all subjectively in Matthews favour. If Laine was drafted by the Leafs he’d be seen as the better player and be favoured overall. Anyways there are too many excuses, Laine is currently better until Matthews can prove otherwise

Things other than goals and points matter. As I have said, this season Malkin and Kessel have more points than Crosby, but Crosby has been going up against the toughest competition, Malkin against 2nd line competition and Kessel 3rd line competition. Every coach in the league knows who the best player is on the Penguins and that is why they put their best up against him, and not Malkin or Kessel.

Laine has better linemates and goes up against significantly inferior competition. His results should be better.
 

StatisticsAddict99

Registered User
Feb 24, 2017
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Things other than goals and points matter. As I have said, this season Malkin and Kessel have more points than Crosby, but Crosby has been going up against the toughest competition, Malkin against 2nd line competition and Kessel 3rd line competition. Every coach in the league knows who the best player is on the Penguins and that is why they put their best up against him, and not Malkin or Kessel.

Laine has better linemates and goes up against significantly inferior competition. His results should be better.

They do but it’s not significant enough in Matthews favour as when your a forward the top priority is scoring and Laines better there, on top of that Laines no slug defensively(he’s pretty decent). This is just another excuse with no analysis to back up your argument other than assumption that Matthews is a god defensively and Laine cherry picks at the O-zone blue line until his
Linemates work the puck out of there Zone.

To your next point, there is no telling what competition any player is primarily going up agaisnt that’s another excusive assumption(it might be subjective viewing but when Laines on the ice i usually see him up agaisnt the Top 6 or higher and the Top 2 Pairings).

Also what better linemates, you Leaf fans call Nylander better than Ehlers all the time until it comes to Laine vs Matthews, then you will throw him under the bus, and to the next factoid Little has been an anchor all season on any line he’s played on dipping his linemates stats down while in most instances Matthews looked to need Hyman more than the other way around as Hyman is analytically a really good player.

All you have is biased excuses my friend.
 

Tralfamadore

Don't Panic.
Sep 25, 2011
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That is the whole point genius. It is just as stupid comparing two players for career goals and career goals per game at the exact, and only time this season that the player you prefer is ahead when he had been behind in both categories for the entire season up until a week ago. That you think the one is laughably dumb, but not the other, just shows your bias.

I don't even know what you're referring to here so ya no bias. I think both players are pretty equal.
 

Tralfamadore

Don't Panic.
Sep 25, 2011
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Laine passed Matthews by this standard 10 days ago...are you being ironic?

What do you mean by passed? Laine passed Matthews in points because he's been able to stay healthy and he's been the better player this year. If you're referring to passed Matthews as a general perception from the HF community it's clearly not the case. Matthews is still winning the poll here.
 

Jozay

Registered User
Jul 9, 2012
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Yeah, I'll take the first line center > the first line winger.

I wanna see a Jet fan lie to me and say they'd take Laine > Matthews.
 

wabagee

Registered User
Nov 24, 2014
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Laine is a superstar like pizza, Matthews is a great player but seems as interesting as bread and butter. Definitely a need but boring.
 

BlueBaron

Registered User
May 29, 2006
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Sarnia, On
What do you mean by passed? Laine passed Matthews in points because he's been able to stay healthy and he's been the better player this year. If you're referring to passed Matthews as a general perception from the HF community it's clearly not the case. Matthews is still winning the poll here.
Not quite accurate. Matthews actually has a slightly higher ppg this season .01. You are correct Laine has been healthier but its his recent goal surge that made these stats favourable to Laine. If you are going to live by goals per 60 etc you are essentially arguing that 10 days ago Laine became better than Matthews which is a tad bizarre.

Either way I would not get too invested in this stuff, it's hard to do a direct comparison between them due to ice time, line mates and position. I would not lose any sleep over someone saying Laine is better but at this point it's pretty close and doesn't matter much.
 

The List Of Jericho

Judas effect
Mar 1, 2002
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Draft pedigree AND general consensus 2 yrs ago means nothing compared to what a player is doing now/today.IMO Laine has pulled ahead and till Matthews can step it up on the ice it's Laine.

1) He's hasn't pulled ahead 2) This is only a debate again because Matthews has missed a significant amount of games...that's it.
 
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