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Sotnos

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snafu said:
Also the role that corporate sponsors have seems to be important, although I can't quite tell who amongst the teams on the "watch" list of sharks like Squiddy seems to be okay in this department.
Unless a team really comes out and gives figures about their corporate support, that's probably not something fans will know anything about.

Like I said, there has been a lot of talk about what factors you cannot use to judge success, but not as much in what you can or should use....
The only thing that matters is: Is the owner happy? Mostly that boils down to, is he making money or breaking even? If so, then nothing else matters, no matter how many haters don't like how your attendance looks or think you're not worthy.
 

Sp5618

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Sotnos said:
Unless a team really comes out and gives figures about their corporate support, that's probably not something fans will know anything about.


The only thing that matters is: Is the owner happy? Mostly that boils down to, is he making money or breaking even? If so, then nothing else matters, no matter how many haters don't like how your attendance looks or think you're not worthy.

Thank you, Sotnos! I was getting a brain cramp from some of the circular arguments you find in here. Yeah, no one is bringing up franchise value either. If the owner is banking on a solid return over a certain time period for franchise value, he may be willing to accept low profits or even a lack of profit. The Wings were losing money under the old CBA but willingly since the franchise value was increasing year after year. I suppose we do not know yet the impact the new CBA will have on this, although for established teams, it should only get better- my assumption with nothing to base it on beyond a rosier revenue : expenses.
 

Sotnos

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snafu said:
Thank you, Sotnos! I was getting a brain cramp from some of the circular arguments you find in here. Yeah, no one is bringing up franchise value either. If the owner is banking on a solid return over a certain time period for franchise value, he may be willing to accept low profits or even a lack of profit. The Wings were losing money under the old CBA but willingly since the franchise value was increasing year after year. I suppose we do not know yet the impact the new CBA will have on this, although for established teams, it should only get better- my assumption with nothing to base it on beyond a rosier revenue : expenses.
I hadn't even thought of franchise values, but that is the biggie! Like you say, a lot of owners will overlook losses as long as the franchise is gaining value over the long term.
 

Transported Upstater

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I'm honestly not sure. Charlotte would have been a good choice, since they are a huge business city and would have a bunch of coporate sponsers. And they'd still have fans throughout the Carolina's, as the Panthers do (who draw very well).

I know it's a bit off topic, but just to point out that Pro Sports CAN succeed in North Carolina:

The Panthers are currently 6th in the NFL in attendance by average (73,368)
The Panthers are currently 10th in the NFL in attendance by percentage (100.2%)

In 2004, they were 6th and 11th
In 2003, they were 9th and 13th

Here's the kicker:

Comming off their awful 1-15 season, they were 8th and 16th (which is still 97.6%)

Charlotte probably would have been the better choice.



And yes, I did mean the Boston and Flyers games that the Canes were hosting.




I don't think anyone reasonable would say that pro sports can't suceed in North Carolina, because that 's a load of garbage.
 

thinkwild

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It was a miracle we got a team in Ottawa at all. The odds were really stacked against us. In the middle of die-hard Habs-Leafs storied territory, an against-all-odds team with the worst expansion draft in history was given a team it couldn’t pay for, that played its first few years in the junior teams 10,000 seat arena while they scrambled to see if they could pull off a real estate deal to build an arena.

And they did, but still, losing to the leafs in the first round each year, the excuses from fans were numerous. When asked on message boards why fans weren’t going to games, the answers usually included that the team wouldn’t buy free agents needed, wouldn’t trade Alfie, Redden, Havlat for Nieuwy, McGillis, and Arnott. Parking lot protests were planned to send a message to management. Besides, the arena was too far away, couldn’t get there after work, the traffic was too annoying, ticket prices are way too high, how can an average family of four afford to go to the game, and that darn parking lot!

Every expansion thread in these message boards had Ottawa at the top of the list, weeks away from moving to Portland. Ottawa is just too small they said, they will never compete with Toronto, they don’t have the corporate market of big cities needed to survive they said. Sure the cheap seats sell but the lower bowl is empty where the corporate support is. They will be moved - it is certain.

Then we got some success and became an odds on team amongst bettors. And the fans got an excitement over the team because it was winning. Winning changes everything. No more complaints about the arena being too far away any more. You just don’t hear it. No complaints from the average family of four over ticket prices, in fact fans are hoping revenues will increase. No more Portland Senators threads at HF. No more empty lower bowls because there is a buzz over the teams success.

‘Canes got a good early run, but they weren’t ready. Now they have a true core in the making, some top prospects, a five year plan that looks very promising for growth. And as long as they are growing revenues at a steady prescribed rate, they will qualify for getting some of the players escrow money as revenue sharing.

Our old owner used to say he could break even at 13,000 attendance. Although of course later they said they were losing money with the arena sold out at twice as high ticket prices. (You have to have an ownerese filter to read these.) But fans act like Carolinas owners should be given total sell-outs at all times or they are a failure. What nonsense. They have to work for their money. And it is a long term plan. Not 1 year.

I’d hope Canes fans are setting the bar high for their team this year. Ignore the chatter - build a winner slowly. You have the foundation coming into place.
 

Skydog

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thinkwild said:
It was a miracle we got a team in Ottawa at all. The odds were really stacked against us. In the middle of die-hard Habs-Leafs storied territory, an against-all-odds team with the worst expansion draft in history was given a team it couldn’t pay for, that played its first few years in the junior teams 10,000 seat arena while they scrambled to see if they could pull off a real estate deal to build an arena.

And they did, but still, losing to the leafs in the first round each year, the excuses from fans were numerous. When asked on message boards why fans weren’t going to games, the answers usually included that the team wouldn’t buy free agents needed, wouldn’t trade Alfie, Redden, Havlat for Nieuwy, McGillis, and Arnott. Parking lot protests were planned to send a message to management. Besides, the arena was too far away, couldn’t get there after work, the traffic was too annoying, ticket prices are way too high, how can an average family of four afford to go to the game, and that darn parking lot!

Every expansion thread in these message boards had Ottawa at the top of the list, weeks away from moving to Portland. Ottawa is just too small they said, they will never compete with Toronto, they don’t have the corporate market of big cities needed to survive they said. Sure the cheap seats sell but the lower bowl is empty where the corporate support is. They will be moved - it is certain.

Then we got some success and became an odds on team amongst bettors. And the fans got an excitement over the team because it was winning. Winning changes everything. No more complaints about the arena being too far away any more. You just don’t hear it. No complaints from the average family of four over ticket prices, in fact fans are hoping revenues will increase. No more Portland Senators threads at HF. No more empty lower bowls because there is a buzz over the teams success.

‘Canes got a good early run, but they weren’t ready. Now they have a true core in the making, some top prospects, a five year plan that looks very promising for growth. And as long as they are growing revenues at a steady prescribed rate, they will qualify for getting some of the players escrow money as revenue sharing.

Our old owner used to say he could break even at 13,000 attendance. Although of course later they said they were losing money with the arena sold out at twice as high ticket prices. (You have to have an ownerese filter to read these.) But fans act like Carolinas owners should be given total sell-outs at all times or they are a failure. What nonsense. They have to work for their money. And it is a long term plan. Not 1 year.

I’d hope Canes fans are setting the bar high for their team this year. Ignore the chatter - build a winner slowly. You have the foundation coming into place.



excellent post. :clap:
 

Squiddy*

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yeah it is a great post and the canes fans did show some great support over the weekend which pretty much means they could sell out games anytime the team is competitive and in return makes the location viable. However, I'm not sold on Nashville's market because they have been winning and we all know about their attendance.
 

bleedgreen

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the canes sold out for the flyers over the weekend, over 18k. anyone who thinks this team cant draw is blind. its been a month and everyone seems to have forgotten that there was a lockout. didnt everyone presume doomsday for the nhl? one month in and eveyones jumpin on the canes for a couple of bad nights early. was anyone expecting more? i think people were just waiting for the opportunity to jump on them, its embarrassing. you can compare them to boston, because when the b's suck - everyone stays home. most teams ARE in the same boat that way, the nhl has become too expensive to follow a losing team. i remember the year that earned the b's joe thornton, there were tons of empty seats. aside from a couple of big markets, everyone is the same way. the canes have already proved that people will come, no one doubted that after watching their cup run, and now people act like it never happened. you cant expect an entire state to turn canadian after one cup run. they were putrid for two years after that run. boring too. the move to hire lavi was a move to make the team more exciting, win or lose. its already working, ive noticed that no one has posted the negative crap since the canes sold out to philly and all the major media markets made comments about it.
 

garnetpalmetto

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bleedgreen said:
the canes sold out for the flyers over the weekend, over 18k. anyone who thinks this team cant draw is blind. its been a month and everyone seems to have forgotten that there was a lockout. didnt everyone presume doomsday for the nhl? one month in and eveyones jumpin on the canes for a couple of bad nights early. was anyone expecting more? i think people were just waiting for the opportunity to jump on them, its embarrassing. you can compare them to boston, because when the b's suck - everyone stays home. most teams ARE in the same boat that way, the nhl has become too expensive to follow a losing team. i remember the year that earned the b's joe thornton, there were tons of empty seats. aside from a couple of big markets, everyone is the same way. the canes have already proved that people will come, no one doubted that after watching their cup run, and now people act like it never happened. you cant expect an entire state to turn canadian after one cup run. they were putrid for two years after that run. boring too. the move to hire lavi was a move to make the team more exciting, win or lose. its already working, ive noticed that no one has posted the negative crap since the canes sold out to philly and all the major media markets made comments about it.

:clap: Unfortunately, even if the Canes sold out every single home date a certain element would still howl for the contraction/relocation of the Canes. Even still you have people in certain areas talking about "free tickets" that the team is apparently giving out everywhere. Anybody know how I can get one of them? :confused: At any rate, the same people who trash Carolina for spotty mid-week attendance give St. Louis a pass for spotty attendance for weekend games. If I were Bettman I'd be more worried about a team with the longevity of the Blues that can't fill their arena on a Saturday than a team like the Canes who can't fill the arena during the work week.
 

Squiddy*

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garnetpalmetto said:
:clap: Unfortunately, even if the Canes sold out every single home date a certain element would still howl for the contraction/relocation of the Canes. Even still you have people in certain areas talking about "free tickets" that the team is apparently giving out everywhere. Anybody know how I can get one of them? :confused: At any rate, the same people who trash Carolina for spotty mid-week attendance give St. Louis a pass for spotty attendance for weekend games. If I were Bettman I'd be more worried about a team with the longevity of the Blues that can't fill their arena on a Saturday than a team like the Canes who can't fill the arena during the work week.

St Louis is established though because they have been in the NHL for how many years? Also people know that the blues have fan support, but they are uncertain about carolina only because the team is about 6 or 7 seasons old and already had a few bad seasons of attendance (although they were crap). I don't blame St Louis fans for not showing up. Infact they probably won't show up until the new owners take over and they know the team is worth the support because they are hardcore like that. People in carolina wouldn't show up if the team traded their biggest star and didn't want to sign someone because the current ownership doesn't care enough about the team competing.
 

triggrman

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Yes all markets should support their pro teams like Houston does. NBA consistantly in the bottom 1/3 of the league, football team played in front of high school attendance figures before moving to Tennessee, AHL team drawing 5k or less.
 

mzon

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triggrman said:
Yes all markets should support their pro teams like Houston does. NBA consistantly in the bottom 1/3 of the league, football team played in front of high school attendance figures before moving to Tennessee, AHL team drawing 5k or less.


Now I understand Squiddy's dislike of Nashville....they took his NFL team.
 

Squiddy*

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triggrman said:
Yes all markets should support their pro teams like Houston does. NBA consistantly in the bottom 1/3 of the league, football team played in front of high school attendance figures before moving to Tennessee, AHL team drawing 5k or less.

That's fine take the rockets and the texans. What do I care? Rockets are supported when they are competing and our AHL team doesn't draw (Toronto Marlies don't either so I guess toronto isn't a hockeytown right? :shakehead ), but what does that have to do with the preds garnering 13,000 people to a game? I mean they aren't exactly the worst team in the league are they?
 

AdmiralPred

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Now I understand Squiddy's dislike of Nashville....they took his NFL team.
Reading up on a few threads that the Squid-man has posted in I gather he is from Sask. and the Oilers probably left before he moved to Houston, and, from the sounds of it, prefers CFL football as that is what he knows and grew up on. That's a shot in the dark.

His dislike of the Preds is because they are in a small market which means that they are doomed to fail, at 6-0-0-0 the Preds drew less than 80% capacity for the San Jose game on a Tennessee/Bama football Saturday, and Nashville beat out Houston, which is a much larger market than Nashville, back in '97 for an expansion team into the NHL.

While I beleive Houston could support an NHL team, I am also in support of the NHL succeeding in Nashville. After all, the owners seem to like it there.
 

triggrman

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Squiddy said:
That's fine take the rockets and the texans. What do I care? Rockets are supported when they are competing and our AHL team doesn't draw (Toronto Marlies don't either so I guess toronto isn't a hockeytown right? :shakehead ), but what does that have to do with the preds garnering 13,000 people to a game? I mean they aren't exactly the worst team in the league are they?
No Toronto supports their other teams, you guys don't support the majority of your teams. The only team you guys support is MLB.
 

triggrman

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AdmiralPred said:
Reading up on a few threads that the Squid-man has posted in I gather he is from Sask. and the Oilers probably left before he moved to Houston, and, from the sounds of it, prefers CFL football as that is what he knows and grew up on. That's a shot in the dark.

His dislike of the Preds is because they are in a small market which means that they are doomed to fail, at 6-0-0-0 the Preds drew less than 80% capacity for the San Jose game on a Tennessee/Bama football Saturday, and Nashville beat out Houston, which is a much larger market than Nashville, back in '97 for an expansion team into the NHL.

While I beleive Houston could support an NHL team, I am also in support of the NHL succeeding in Nashville. After all, the owners seem to like it there.
Squibby only wants a winning hockey team though, as Houston only supports winning teams.
 

Squiddy*

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triggrman said:
Squibby only wants a winning hockey team though, as Houston only supports winning teams.

Ok I know you like to beat around the bush by bringing up the obvious and comparing AHL attendances to NHL attendances and what not, but the fact that many preds fans know there is a problem with your attendance, most of us know there is a problem with your attendance and the media knows there is a problem with your attendance isn't going to change. Your own post games on the preds flagship station has about 90% of the callers calling in talking about the preds attendance instead of the game. Heck, some preds fans think blacking out home games are a good idea. That's something owners did in the 40's (wirtz is a moron so no need to bring him up). Something is DEFINITELY wrong and if you think things are going well for the preds off the ice besides the 2,000 season tickets growth than you are in denial. Also doesn't it seem weird that in the post game show the same people are always calling and that the Host knows them by nickname? The host even asked one lady how come he never heard from her in a long time... it really is a joke.
 

Squiddy*

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triggrman said:
No Toronto supports their other teams, you guys don't support the majority of your teams. The only team you guys support is MLB.

The BlueJays couldn't attract flies, but the Raptors do well I must say.
 

Squiddy*

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AdmiralPred said:
Reading up on a few threads that the Squid-man has posted in I gather he is from Sask. and the Oilers probably left before he moved to Houston, and, from the sounds of it, prefers CFL football as that is what he knows and grew up on. That's a shot in the dark.

His dislike of the Preds is because they are in a small market which means that they are doomed to fail, at 6-0-0-0 the Preds drew less than 80% capacity for the San Jose game on a Tennessee/Bama football Saturday, and Nashville beat out Houston, which is a much larger market than Nashville, back in '97 for an expansion team into the NHL.

While I beleive Houston could support an NHL team, I am also in support of the NHL succeeding in Nashville. After all, the owners seem to like it there.

You're right I could really care less about NFL football and the Texans are like the ******* child that nobody cared for after the Oilers left (that's the opinion I get from the locals). I will probably move in a few years again it seems like, so I really don't have a attachment to the city. All I know is that Hockey would do well here with a winning pro team. A lot of hardcore hockey fans here that I play shinny with (yes we actually have arenas here that are maintained) are all ticked off because any team they have supported switched leagues because after awhile the league would fold. They don't want to see a product of players comming and going to the big team because that's what the AHL is and atleast the IHL was a little more substanial. There are 2 other pro shows in town so why would they go out to the AHL?
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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Squiddy said:
You're right I could really care less about NFL football and the Texans are like the ******* child that nobody cared for after the Oilers left (that's the opinion I get from the locals). I will probably move in a few years again it seems like, so I really don't have a attachment to the city. All I know is that Hockey would do well here with a winning pro team. A lot of hardcore hockey fans here that I play shinny with (yes we actually have arenas here that are maintained) are all ticked off because any team they have supported switched leagues because after awhile the league would fold. They don't want to see a product of players comming and going to the big team because that's what the AHL is and atleast the IHL was a little more substanial. There are 2 other pro shows in town so why would they go out to the AHL?


then stop dissing hockey Squid :shakehead
 
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