Proposal: Carolina - Winnipeg

[DarthProbert]

Pesce isn’t worth Laine but he’s also somehow become the most mentioned player on this forum who isn’t even remotely available. Why is he in so many proposals? I don’t get it. Do people really look at the Canes blueline and think somehow they’d be willing to move him in any kind of sensible deal?

Canes fans are weirdos thinking that to get something they have to give something. More like Dzingel, Mrazek and a 5th should get you any player in the league.

 

[Boondock]

A Top4 defensive RHD is surely not worth more than a 22yr old exceptional sniper with an avg of 34,5gseason? In what world is a Top4 defensive D worth more?

1 - Didn't you make the proposal? You should know it wasn't a 1 for 1
2 - At no point did this poster comment on the value of anybody other than Pesce
3 - If you only see Pesce as a top 4 D that might be part of the issue and reflect what you see as reasonable value.

 

[MinJaBen]

I’d love to have Laine on the Canes. But it would cost too much in assets and Leaf the salary cap structure in ruins.

 

[The S5]

Canes fans are weirdos thinking that to get something they have to give something. More like Dzingel, Mrazek and a 5th should get you any player in the league.

You do realize that more goes into a trade than "my player has a higher NHL 20 rating, so he's worth so much more".

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

Canes fans are weirdos thinking that to get something they have to give something. More like Dzingel, Mrazek and a 5th should get you any player in the league.

No, Canes fans are smart and realize that Laine is a very good player and will demand a lot of value in a trade. Too much value. The cost it would take to acquire him would set the franchise back. Especially if Pesce is involved in a Laine trade and Hamilton walks in UFA. That happens and our best right handed defenseman is RFA Joey Keane. Not ideal. Then next offseason we get to deal with Laine/Svech needing new contracts and Necas the offseason after that.

I’d love to have Laine on the Canes. But it would cost too much in assets and Leaf the salary cap structure in ruins.

 

[tapi]

Canes roll Troch / Staal as their 1 / 2C?

Necas will be ready for a top slot soon, and Teravainen could probably convert to a successful top-6 NHL center now that he has experience under his belt.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Necas will be ready for a top slot soon, and Teravainen could probably convert to a successful top-6 NHL center now that he has experience under his belt.

LOL. For the 100th time, we all get it. You want to have Aho traded and no Canes fans do.

Your silly attempts at rationalizing it are comical.
"necas will be ready for a top slot soon" (when he hasn't even been ready for a 2nd line winger yet)
-or
"Teravainen could probably convert to a successful top-6 center" (when he hasn't played center nor been successful at it for years)

Extremely poor reasoning on your part. I think that you don't even believe this stuff yourself.

 

[Peter Tagli Eddie]

It’s mostly conjecture but from this Winnipeg fan, where there is smoke, there is fire. It seems like he enjoys Winnipeg, but is not happy with the team leadership, coach included. Laine has been misused for years, while some of that is his fault, PoMo is a terrible coach when it comes to youth. He’s an old school coach who is stuck in his ways, favours veteran players and refuses to adjust his coaching style (or unable to) unless he is required to (injuries/trades). When a line does click (Ehlers/Scheifele/Laine, played VERY well together) during a roster adjustment because of injury, once that injured player is back, she goes back to status quo. I can understand from a youth perspective how frustrating that could be. Ehlers, Laine, Roslo, Trouba and to a lesser extent Petan among others, have in some way, all shown frustration, or have been rumored as such. When all the dots connect, there is usually some substance to the allegations.

So no source? Just some unfounded rumours/ fan fiction.

 

[jgimp]

So no source? Just some unfounded rumours/ fan fiction.

It always is. Things like this really never get leaked to guys like McKenzie, Lebrun etc. Just things you notice after watching a team for years and seeing it breakdown. kinda like watching a marriage breakdown over the years, no one is really surprised. Like I said though, smoke=fire

 

[majormajor]

I’d love to have Laine on the Canes. But it would cost too much in assets and Leaf the salary cap structure in ruins.

It's funny I was just thinking it would turn the Canes into the Leafs. Incredible firepower and terrible lineup holes.

My take is that this would be doable for the Canes only if they can get a Hamilton extension in place first that is not too much money.

Edit: I just ran it through capfriendly, and it's very doable IF nobody takes more than $8m per and the Canes find somewhere to dump Nino and Gardiner by 2021-22. They would be in a much better position than the Leafs.

 

[tapi]

LOL. For the 100th time, we all get it. You want to have Aho traded and no Canes fans do.

Your silly attempts at rationalizing it are comical.
"necas will be ready for a top slot soon" (when he hasn't even been ready for a 2nd line winger yet)
-or
"Teravainen could probably convert to a successful top-6 center" (when he hasn't played center nor been successful at it for years)

Extremely poor reasoning on your part. I think that you don't even believe this stuff yourself.

The thing is that I'm looking at it from a wider and more objective perspective while the fans Canes like those of any team, of course, get very attached to their star players. As I see it, because the team as of now is not a contender (the goalkeeper issues, for one, must be dealt with) the depth of Carolina can easily cope with the loss of Aho and the end result will be a win for the Canes if the return for him will be more valuable than him in a couple years time which is when the current core will likely peak. Laine and a first is nothing to scoff at. It could turn out a major win for the Canes, should Laine be able to score 40+ consistently and the pick is handled well.

The Jets on the other hand have shown no ability to manage Laine and have huge issues with the cap so they would benefit from shipping him off and finally getting another good centerman instead of paying draft picks every single year for a rental.

We must also bear in mind that the Corona-debacle benefits the young guys (like Necas) the most who get to work on their physique which often is one of the biggest issues for the transition to NHL, especially for guys coming in from Europe. Also, Teravainen who has played center for 90% of his hockey career could work next 4 months or even more on his transition back to his more natural position. We have to account for all the factors.

 

[jonlin]

It's funny I was just thinking it would turn the Canes into the Leafs. Incredible firepower and terrible lineup holes.

My take is that this would be doable for the Canes only if they can get a Hamilton extension in place first that is not too much money.

Edit: I just ran it through capfriendly, and it's very doable IF nobody takes more than $8m per and the Canes find somewhere to dump Nino and Gardiner by 2021-22. They would be in a much better position than the Leafs.

This is why Nino is in the proposal. I also think Hamilton will resign more likely if he sees Canes are going all-in. I`d guess Laine could less if traded to Canes who should be a contender?

 

[Whileee]

You forgot Carolina's Top 4 after the trade. It isn't pretty.

Laine doesn't make sense in the Canes' long-term structure. Unless the deal is really favorable (see the Trocheck+Skjei concept that who knows may have come straight from the decision makers in Carolina) allowing the team to take a couple cracks at it before flipping him for lesser assets, Carolina is nothing more than a public negotiating ploy for Winnipeg to extract a better return elsewhere, imo.

The Jets management has no role in these public musings by fans and media. They don't negotiate in public.

Also, Skjei-Trocheck is awful as a basis for Laine. Jets counter with Pionk-Copp for Svechnikov.

 

[majormajor]

This is why Nino is in the proposal. I also think Hamilton will resign more likely if he sees Canes are going all-in. I`d guess Laine could less if traded to Canes who should be a contender?

I was speaking more about a Laine-Pesce swap in general. I don't think the Jets touch the deal if there is a dump involved, the only deal I've seen that I'm semi-confident the Jets would do is Pesce+Necas.

In any case, my point is that in all versions, the deal is doable for the Canes over the long run if they're willing to pay to unload Nino and Gardiner somewhere, not necessarily and not likely to Winnipeg.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The thing is that I'm looking at it from a wider and more objective perspective while the fans Canes like those of any team, of course, get very attached to their star players. As I see it, because the team as of now is not a contender (the goalkeeper issues, for one, must be dealt with) the depth of Carolina can easily cope with the loss of Aho and the end result will be a win for the Canes if the return for him will be more valuable than him in a couple years time which is when the current core will likely peak. Laine and a first is nothing to scoff at. It could turn out a major win for the Canes, should Laine be able to score 40+ consistently and the pick is handled well.

The Jets on the other hand have shown no ability to manage Laine and have huge issues with the cap so they would benefit from shipping him off and finally getting another good centerman instead of paying draft picks every single year for a rental.

We must also bear in mind that the Corona-debacle benefits the young guys (like Necas) the most who get to work on their physique which often is one of the biggest issues for the transition to NHL, especially for guys coming in from Europe. Also, Teravainen who has played center for 90% of his hockey career could work next 4 months or even more on his transition back to his more natural position. We have to account for all the factors.

LOL. You’re objective? The guy that’s been proposing Aho trades for years at every turn is claiming he’s objective?

that’s rich.

 

[majormajor]

The thing is that I'm looking at it from a wider and more objective perspective while the fans Canes like those of any team, of course, get very attached to their star players. As I see it, because the team as of now is not a contender (the goalkeeper issues, for one, must be dealt with) the depth of Carolina can easily cope with the loss of Aho and the end result will be a win for the Canes if the return for him will be more valuable than him in a couple years time which is when the current core will likely peak. Laine and a first is nothing to scoff at. It could turn out a major win for the Canes, should Laine be able to score 40+ consistently and the pick is handled well.

The Jets on the other hand have shown no ability to manage Laine and have huge issues with the cap so they would benefit from shipping him off and finally getting another good centerman instead of paying draft picks every single year for a rental.

We must also bear in mind that the Corona-debacle benefits the young guys (like Necas) the most who get to work on their physique which often is one of the biggest issues for the transition to NHL, especially for guys coming in from Europe. Also, Teravainen who has played center for 90% of his hockey career could work next 4 months or even more on his transition back to his more natural position. We have to account for all the factors.

I'm not a Canes fan and I have to say that this doesn't make any sense. Aho is more valuable than Laine and he's the only viable top center on the Canes. No team in that position would trade such a player for a winger, 40 goals or not.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

The Jets management has no role in these public musings by fans and media. They don't negotiate in public.

Also, Skjei-Trocheck is awful as a basis for Laine. Jets counter with Pionk-Copp for Svechnikov.

It wasn't my idea and I'm not trying to sell it as realistic. The snarky counter proposal is unnecessary.

In that case, I'm not expecting much more Laine to Carolina speculation from the media. Carolina's management does use it, particularly LeBrun, to put things out there. The gist of that article was that Pesce is a hill they probably die on. Necas wasn't mentioned. Effectively being interested if he's on the super cheap is perfectly reasonable in the context of Laine's lack of fit in the team's long-term cap structure.

 

[Negan4Coach]

IDK, as a Canes fan, I'd take this deal. Maybe that's because I have been shell-shocked by so many godawful proposals on here that this one is creating some kind of "Stockholm Syndrome" effect...

Giving up Pesce is less than ideal...but I think the D can survive it since we inexplicably traded for so many frigging defensemen at the TDL. And having Laine along with Aho and Svech, and Teravainen, and Necas, GTFO. That will create problems for teams that we need to create. And you don't get somebody like Laine for cheap, lets face it.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I'm not a Canes fan and I have to say that this doesn't make any sense. Aho is more valuable than Laine and he's the only viable top center on the Canes. No team in that position would trade such a player for a winger, 40 goals or not.

Exactly. They are 9 months apart in age and entered the league at the same time.

Aho: 310GP, 121G, 263P +38: Career high 38G in 68GP (this season), 83P in 82GP (last season)
- Plays C, plays on the PK, plays in all situations.

Laine: 305GP, 138G, 247P, -1: Career high 44G in 82GP, 70P in 82GP.
- Plays W, doesn't PK, doesn't play in all situations.

Aho averages 32G, 70P / 82 games through his career
Laine averages 37G, 66P / 82 games through his career

Tapi seems to ignore that adding Laine but subtracting Aho doesn't really improve the offense in Carolina. on average, 5 more goals / season but 4 less points / season through their careers. Over the last 3 seasons, Aho has only scored 4 less goals than Laine TOTAL (97 vs. 102).

Laine is a better goal scorer, no doubt, and I think through their careers, will score more goals than Aho. His shot is a weapon, but Aho is the more productive player overall while playing a more important position and in all situations. Removing Aho and adding Laine doesn't help Carolina offensively, it probably hurts them when you look a the whole package. Adding the 10th OA pick doesn't make swing it enough.

This isn't "fan bias", it's common sense.

 

[jonlin]

Exactly. They are 9 months apart in age and entered the league at the same time.

Aho: 310GP, 121G, 263P +38: Career high 38G in 68GP (this season), 83P in 82GP (last season)
- Plays C, plays on the PK, plays in all situations.

Laine: 305GP, 138G, 247P, -1: Career high 44G in 82GP, 70P in 82GP.
- Plays W, doesn't PK, doesn't play in all situations.

Aho averages 32G, 70P / 82 games through his career
Laine averages 37G, 66P / 82 games through his career

Tapi seems to ignore that adding Laine but subtracting Aho doesn't really improve the offense in Carolina. on average, 5 more goals / season but 4 less points / season through their careers. Over the last 3 seasons, Aho has only scored 4 less goals than Laine TOTAL (97 vs. 102).

Laine is a better goal scorer, no doubt, and I think through their careers, will score more goals than Aho. His shot is a weapon, but Aho is the more productive player overall while playing a more important position and in all situations. Removing Aho and adding Laine doesn't help Carolina offensively, it probably hurts them when you look a the whole package. Adding the 10th OA pick doesn't make swing it enough.


This isn't "fan bias", it's common sense.

This proposal ADD Laine, with removing only Nino and Pesce. I`d imagine both Laine and Aho produce even more if he is added? Carolina didnt exactly shit the bed with Pesce hurt. Imagine if Laine would have been on the team instead of Nino? In 5 games against Boston, Carolina scored 11g. Thats 2,2g/gm. They gave up 15g, thats 3g/gm. They lost because they didnt score enough, not because the defense sucked... Laine would probably have helped? Boston was the Presidents trophy winner and it was still pretty close games. Laine could have tipped the scale in that series...

 

[Chrispy]

This proposal ADD Laine, with removing only Nino and Pesce. I`d imagine both Laine and Aho produce even more if he is added? Carolina didnt exactly shit the bed with Pesce hurt. Imagine if Laine would have been on the team instead of Nino? In 5 games against Boston, Carolina scored 11g. Thats 2,2g/gm. They gave up 15g, thats 3g/gm. They lost because they didnt score enough, not because the defense sucked... Laine would probably have helped? Boston was the Presidents trophy winner and it was still pretty close games. Laine could have tipped the scale in that series...

With Hamilton back and Pesce hurt, the defense looked good against NYR with the additions.

No Hamilton or Pesce? Ugly. Lost 4 in a row before winning the last 3 before the shutdown.

With Hamilton a UFA after 2021, it's very hard to move Pesce without signing Hamilton long-term first.
If they can't sign Hamilton, then Hamilton should be the one who is moved.

 

[jonlin]

With Hamilton back and Pesce hurt, the defense looked good against NYR with the additions.

No Hamilton or Pesce? Ugly. Lost 4 in a row before winning the last 3 before the shutdown.

With Hamilton a UFA after 2021, it's very hard to move Pesce without signing Hamilton long-term first.
If they can't sign Hamilton, then Hamilton should be the one who is moved.

I actually think adding Laine would help keeping Hamilton put. I`d guess he likes to be contending? The proposal was made thinking Hamilton will be resigned. If Canes know Hamilton will walk, then I wouldnt make a proposal like this. They need one of Pesce/Hamilton.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

This proposal ADD Laine, with removing only Nino and Pesce.

I was referring to Tapi's proposal further in this thread, not the OP

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I actually think adding Laine would help keeping Hamilton put. I`d guess he likes to be contending? The proposal was made thinking Hamilton will be resigned. If Canes know Hamilton will walk, then I wouldnt make a proposal like this. They need one of Pesce/Hamilton.

Why would it help? Canes were in the ECF last year without Laine and a playoff team this year. Adding Laine (and a big contract he'll likely command) means it's more difficult to pay Hamilton and Svech.

 

[jonlin]

Why would it help? Canes were in the ECF last year without Laine and a playoff team this year. Adding Laine (and a big contract he'll likely command) means it's more difficult to pay Hamilton and Svech.

Not by much. You have to count Nino`s salary too. Salaries out 9,3M and added 6,75M. For next year thats -2,55M. Dzingel, McGinn and Martinook go UFA the year after. Trocheck next year, when Necas is RFA. It`s manageable. Atleast when Aho is paid 8,454M/yr. I actually think that Laine would take less in Carolina, than what he will ask for in Winnipeg. Playmates, coach and enviroment are probably a positive for him?

It`s tight, but doable. If Laine does well, offer same as Aho. Offer Hamilton 7,5M/5yrs.