TSN: Carolina interested in Kapanen

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GoldiFox

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Apr 21, 2014
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your entire argument is Ifs and Buts.

because kappy is producing at a 30gl/55pt pace.

With Auston Matthews.

In the 14 games that Kapanen didn’t have Matthews he scored 7 points.

No ifs needed. That is just the data. You seem confused by the concept, but the difference is that Kapanen already tested my hypothesis over a 14 game sample size. Whereas your hypothesis of “Babcock won’t give Kapanen PP time but if he got it he would probably be at least Bozak level” has no testing.

Canes don’t have a Matthews and don’t need another 40-50 point winger in exchange for their last major trade chip.

This would all be a lot be a lot simpler if Toronto just sold their farm for Pietrangelo as Bob McKenzie suggested. That opens St Louis to needing a RHD and the Canes can happily move one of Pesce, Faulk, or Hamilton in a deal for Tarasenko, Schenn, or ROR. 3 much better players and much better fits for the Canes roster as Centers and a true sniper (what Dundon specifically asked for).
 
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Leaf Fans

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With Auston Matthews.

In the 14 games that Kapanen didn’t have Matthews he scored 7 points.

No ifs needed. That is just the data. You seem confused by the concept, but the difference is that Kapanen already tested my hypothesis over a 14 game sample size. Whereas your hypothesis of “Babcock won’t give Kapanen PP time but if he got it he would probably be at least Bozak level” has no testing.

Canes don’t have a Matthews and don’t need another 40-50 point winger in exchange for their last major trade chip.

This would all be a lot be a lot simpler if Toronto just sold their farm for Pietrangelo as Bob McKenzie suggested. That opens St Louis to needing a RHD and the Canes can happily move one of Pesce, Faulk, or Hamilton in a deal for Tarasenko, Schenn, or ROR. 3 much better players and much better fits for the Canes roster as Centers and a true sniper (what Dundon specifically asked for).
There will be a lot of farm selling. I the Leafs sold their farm for Pietrangelo and Carolina went after Tarasenko they would be adding their farm to Pesce.
 

GoldiFox

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There will be a lot of farm selling. I the Leafs sold their farm for Pietrangelo and Carolina went after Tarasenko they would be adding their farm to Pesce.

I offered Pesce + Teravainen for Tarasenko and it was well received. I don’t mind throwing Necas in the mix if necessary. Such as Necas + Bean/Fleury + Faulk

Gotta pay the price if you want a difference maker.
 

Kelly

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Nov 12, 2012
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There will be a lot of farm selling. I the Leafs sold their farm for Pietrangelo and Carolina went after Tarasenko they would be adding their farm to Pesce.
Yeah I don't see Pesce, Hamilton, or Faulk having the value that's equals one of Tarasenko, ROR, or Schenn... Carolina would need to add quite a bit.

Totally get Carolina fans not wanting to trade the 3 D for Kapanen though, and tbh I'd much rather Leafs sell the farm for Pie too.
 
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StormCast

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TT has done nothing away from Aho. Kapanen has his advanced defensive game, plays well on a line with Kadri and would instantly be your fastest player, highest goal scorer and best penalty killing forward. TT, not so much.
You do realize that when TT hit 60+ points last year, Aho wasn't his center, right? They both played wing so your argument really isn't an argument. KK fastest player on the Canes. Yes. Highest scorer? Please. He's not going to outscore Aho. KK best PKer? Laughable and shows you don't know you kills penalties for the Canes.
 

StormCast

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...at even strength, which is 1st line caliber.

and which is much better than pesce has looked away from Slavin.
You sound very confident so you won't mind sharing specifically how Pesce has looked away from Slavin? A handful of actual observations would suffice. No?
 

sufferer

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Dec 6, 2017
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He'd probably look like more of the same for Carolina. A good-not-great scoring winger whose totals are inflated playing on a powerhouse with superstar linemates.
 

zeke

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With Auston Matthews.

In the 14 games that Kapanen didn’t have Matthews he scored 7 points.

No ifs needed. That is just the data. You seem confused by the concept, but the difference is that Kapanen already tested my hypothesis over a 14 game sample size. Whereas your hypothesis of “Babcock won’t give Kapanen PP time but if he got it he would probably be at least Bozak level” has no testing.

Canes don’t have a Matthews and don’t need another 40-50 point winger in exchange for their last major trade chip.

You are right, the data is clear.

Let's play your double-standards games where you pretend that Kappy isn't allowed to have good linemates, but Pesce is.

Kappy without Matthews: 15gms, 5gls, 8pts (82gms, 27gls, 44pts)

Compared to Canes forwards without PP time:

This Year:

Aho: 32gms, 10gls, 24pts (82gms, 26gls, 62pts)
Kappy: 15gms, 5gls, 8pts (82gms, 27gls, 44pts)
Teuvo: 32gms, 2gls, 17pts (82gms, 5gls, 44pts)

Last Year:

Aho: 78gms, 21gls, 49pts (82gms, 22gls, 51pts)
Kappy: 15gms, 5gls, 8pts (82gms, 27gls, 44pts)
Teuvo: 82gms, 18gls, 44pts (82gms, 18gls, 44pts)
Skinner: 82gms, 20gls, 40pts (82gms, 20gls, 40pts)
Williams: 82gms, 14gls, 39pts (82gms, 15gls, 39pts)

So Kappy, even if we pretend that we're only allowed to look at his production without Matthews, is the 2nd best producer on your team....and that's even ignoring the fact that he gets fewer minutes than those guys, and is younger than all of the guys below him there.

And of course, that's not actual reality - in reality, Kappy is producing at a 30gl/55pt pace, with no PP time.

Now getting back to your double-standard - if you think performance with Matthews has to be disqualified when considering how good Kappy is, why don't you also think we should disqualify anything Pesce has done while playing with Slavin?

Because as I've shown you - Kappy is still producing like a 1st liner WITHOUT matthews, but Pesce has been much worse than that without Slavin - he's performed like a bottom pair dman without Slavin.



This would all be a lot be a lot simpler if Toronto just sold their farm for Pietrangelo as Bob McKenzie suggested. That opens St Louis to needing a RHD and the Canes can happily move one of Pesce, Faulk, or Hamilton in a deal for Tarasenko, Schenn, or ROR. 3 much better players and much better fits for the Canes roster as Centers and a true sniper (what Dundon specifically asked for).

Absolutely. Using our chips to trade for a #1 Dman like Pietro is much smarter than using them to trade for struggling depth players.

But, just so you understand this - as a 22yr old in his first chance above the 4th line, Kappy is producing more at even strength this year than any of Tarasenko, Schenn, or ROR ever have in their careers.
 
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MinJaBen

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Last Year:

Aho: 78gms, 21gls, 49pts (82gms, 22gls, 51pts)
Kappy: 15gms, 5gls, 8pts (82gms, 27gls, 44pts)
Teuvo: 82gms, 18gls, 44pts (82gms, 18gls, 44pts)
Skinner: 82gms, 20gls, 40pts (82gms, 20gls, 40pts)
Williams: 82gms, 14gls, 39pts (82gms, 15gls, 39pts)

Where did you get these numbers for last year? TT has 23g and 41a for 64 points in 82 while Aho had 29g and 36a for 65 in 78. I don't think the Skinner and Williams numbers are correct either, but one is not with the team any more so I don't care and one of them is not in the same neighborhood for age, so I don't think it is a good comparison anyway.
 

zeke

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You sound very confident so you won't mind sharing specifically how Pesce has looked away from Slavin? A handful of actual observations would suffice. No?

are you challenging fellow Canes fans to demonstrate their first person scouting examples of what Kappy looks like away from Matthews? or is it just leafs fans that have to do that?
 
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Leaf Fans

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Tarasenko is a tier or two above Nylander. In any case Tom Dundon wants “a sniper” and Tarasenko is one of the top in the league. Nylander plays too much of a perimeter game to attack the net like Tank.
That is not exactly true about Nylander anyway. Go for Tarasenko, you are right , he is a sniper.
 

zeke

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Where did you get these numbers for last year? TT has 23g and 41a for 64 points in 82 while Aho had 29g and 36a for 65 in 78. I don't think the Skinner and Williams numbers are correct either, but one is not with the team any more so I don't care and one of them is not in the same neighborhood for age, so I don't think it is a good comparison anyway.

numbers without PP production.
 
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BB88

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And some say no Leafs fans overhype their players.

Kapanen isn't a franchise winger, and Kapanen isn't a game changer, you don't trade your top trade asset for him.

This place is just crazy.
 
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GoldiFox

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Apr 21, 2014
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You are right, the data is clear.

Let's play your double-standards games where you pretend that Kappy isn't allowed to have good linemates, but Pesce is.

Kappy without Matthews: 15gms, 5gls, 8pts (82gms, 27gls, 44pts)

Compared to Canes forwards:

This Year:

Aho: 32gms, 10gls, 24pts (82gms, 26gls, 62pts)
Kappy: 15gms, 5gls, 8pts (82gms, 27gls, 44pts)
Teuvo: 32gms, 2gls, 17pts (82gms, 5gls, 44pts)

Last Year:

Aho: 78gms, 21gls, 49pts (82gms, 22gls, 51pts)
Kappy: 15gms, 5gls, 8pts (82gms, 27gls, 44pts)
Teuvo: 82gms, 18gls, 44pts (82gms, 18gls, 44pts)
Skinner: 82gms, 20gls, 40pts (82gms, 20gls, 40pts)
Williams: 82gms, 14gls, 39pts (82gms, 15gls, 39pts)

So Kappy, even if we pretend that we're only allowed to look at his production without Matthews, is the 2nd best producer on your team....and that's even ignoring the fact that he gets fewer minutes than those guys, and is younger than all of the guys below him there.

And of course, that's not actual reality - in reality, Kappy is producing at a 30gl/55pt pace, with no PP time.

Now getting back to your double-standard - if you think performance with Matthews has to be disqualified when considering how good Kappy is, why don't you also think we should disqualify anything Pesce has done while playing with Slavin?

Because as I've shown you - Kappy is still producing like a 1st liner WITHOUT matthews, but Pesce has been much worse than that without Slavin - he's performed like a bottom pair dman without Slavin.





Absolutely. Using our chips to trade for a #1 Dman like Pietro is much smarter than using them to trade for struggling depth players.

But, just so you understand this - as a 22yr old in his first chance above the 4th line, Kappy is producing more at even strength this year than any of Tarasenko, Schenn, or ROR ever have in their careers.

No Canes fan would trade Pesce for Kapanen. Kapanen isn’t worth close to that value. The burden isn’t on me to prove that Pesce is x or y. I’m just laying out the objective reasoning why Kapanen is insufficient.

44 points doesn’t excite anyone. Just because the rest of the Canes outside Aho were bad last year doesn’t make a 44 point winger more valuable.

Now I’ve heard from Leafs fans argue today that Kapanen is better than all of Svechnikov, Tarasenko, and ROR this year. The lols.

Why has Nylander only put up 2 assists in 5 GP? Struggling to produce away from Matthews? I’ve almost as if Matthews is an incredible Center that elevates his linemates.
 
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ottomaddox

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Yeah I don't see Pesce, Hamilton, or Faulk having the value that's equals one of Tarasenko, ROR, or Schenn... Carolina would need to add quite a bit.

Totally get Carolina fans not wanting to trade the 3 D for Kapanen though, and tbh I'd much rather Leafs sell the farm for Pie too.

Agreed, but what is the realistic price for Pie? Kadri, Bracco, a 1st, and a 3rd? Perhaps more? I wish I could see Dubas doing this, but I can't picture it. I suppose he'll be doing something like this throughout his career. Is it best to do that now?
 

Leaf4Life79

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I would rather trade Nylander. The team hasn't even won a game since he came back, doesn't even look 100% interested since that big signing... I know I will get flamed for this, but I much prefer Kappy over Nylander. Say what you want! =)
 
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pspot

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Dec 20, 2004
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Canes board is talking about Hamilton for Saad. if this was truth you'd think Kapanen would be a comparable. Leafs add picks/prospects.

with Faulk now playing more consistent the cap with Hamilton is better spent upfront and Canes not in a position to add to it not wanting to spend to Cap
 

zeke

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That is not exactly true about Nylander anyway. Go for Tarasenko, you are right , he is a sniper.

Age 21:

Tarasenko: 38gms, 13:25 (1:47pp), 8gls (3pp), 19pts (5pp) --- 82gms, 17gls (6pp), 41pts (11pp)
Kapanen: 38gms, 11:15 (0:01pp), 7gls (0pp), 9pts (0pp) ------ 82gms, 15gls (0pp), 19pts (0pp)

Age 22:

Tarasenko: 64gms, 15:10 (1:40pp), 21gls (5pp), 43pts (7pp) --- 82gms, 27gls (6pp), 55pts (9pp)
Kapanen: 33gms, 16:20 (0:36pp), 12gls (0pp), 22pts (0pp) ----- 82gms, 30gls (0pp), 55pts (0pp)
 

ottomaddox

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Oct 31, 2017
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If TOR/CAR agree to a trade are we looking at a Trade Deadline acquisition?

I guess what I am asking is does CAR want to create an early push to improve in the standings now? Is it too far gone to pay extra for Kap?

I know it's prudent for GMs to be patient, but getting pressure from the top changes the game.

What would you like to see happen?
What is likely to happen?
 

GoldiFox

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Apr 21, 2014
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Canes board is talking about Hamilton for Saad. if this was truth you'd think Kapanen would be a comparable. Leafs add picks/prospects.

with Faulk now playing more consistent the cap with Hamilton is better spent upfront and Canes not in a position to add to it not wanting to spend to Cap

No they aren’t. One user on the Canes board suggested Hamilton for Saad and it that user regularly suggests bad swaps.

Some Canes fans are frustrated with Hamilton’s play. Some Canes fans are frustrated with Brind’Amour’s usage of Hamilton. In any case Slavin-Pesce are back together and look outstanding so now Hamilton is on the 3rd pair (as Brind’Amour refuses to move Faulk away from De Haan or off the PP1) and fans start getting antsy.
 
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Mar 14, 2011
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With Auston Matthews.

In the 14 games that Kapanen didn’t have Matthews he scored 7 points.

No ifs needed. That is just the data. You seem confused by the concept, but the difference is that Kapanen already tested my hypothesis over a 14 game sample size. Whereas your hypothesis of “Babcock won’t give Kapanen PP time but if he got it he would probably be at least Bozak level” has no testing.

Canes don’t have a Matthews and don’t need another 40-50 point winger in exchange for their last major trade chip.

This would all be a lot be a lot simpler if Toronto just sold their farm for Pietrangelo as Bob McKenzie suggested. That opens St Louis to needing a RHD and the Canes can happily move one of Pesce, Faulk, or Hamilton in a deal for Tarasenko, Schenn, or ROR. 3 much better players and much better fits for the Canes roster as Centers and a true sniper (what Dundon specifically asked for).
Funny thing, Aho and Teuvo has also proven my hypothesis right that they would be scoring at around the same rate as Kappy if given the same opportunity considering Aho scored 49 EV points last year while Teuvo scored about 44 which is around the same pace you projected Kap to be IF he didn't have Matthews.
 
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