Carolina Hurricanes looking for big contributions from several prospects

[dogbazinho]

...You do realize drafting a 3rd/4th line grinding center with the 5th overall pick is insane, right? Especially in a draft as deep as this past one.

And just like your "offensive upside" comment, claiming Monahan as a 3rd/4th line grinder is premature...to say the least.

I'm oversimplifying what Monahan offered by calling him a grinder. He was projected as a fantastic player but perhaps more defensibly responsible at the sacrifice of offense. IF we saw no room in the top 2 (or even 3) lines for Lindholm why not take this player. Why not take the shutdown center over the playmaker that has no one to make plays with?

Now Monahan has displayed more offense than Lindholm in the first 3 games or perhaps Monahan has simply responded to the trust his coach has shown in him. Either way I think it's fair to compare the two and the styles of the different organizations and how they handle 2 centers drafted back to back.

And one other comment to both of you regarding upside. I never said Monahan had more upside. I said now that Monahan has show some offensive flair the claim that Lindholm had more is questionable. How is calling something questionable "premature." Questioning things is exactly what you do when things ARE premature. If anything Lindholm's superior offensive projection was premature.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Because you're calling it "questionable" based off a 3-game sample where, as you pointed out, one is getting 2nd line minutes and the other is getting 4th.

You don't think your sample might be a little distorted...and small?

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Let's put it another way...

Say I'm somehow suddenly the first line winger next to Staal and Semin for the next 3 games. By some fluke, I get some assists by having pucks shot off my prone body as I attempt to stand in front of the net. Lindholm gets his 4th line minutes and continues to come up empty on the stat sheet.

Does this mean it's questionable that Lindholm has more offensive upside than me?

 

[Lazyking]

So teams don't make an adjustment in the NHL to rookies?

I'm gonna pencil Tomas Hertl in for 160 goals this season then.

 

[dogbazinho]

Let's put it another way...

Say I'm somehow suddenly the first line winger next to Staal and Semin for the next 3 games. By some fluke, I get some assists by having pucks shot off my prone body as I attempt to stand in front of the net. Lindholm gets his 4th line minutes and continues to come up empty on the stat sheet.

Does this mean it's questionable that Lindholm has more offensive upside than me?

If many scouts had you and Lindholm as 5 and 6, interchangable depending on who you asked, and you impressed a coaching staff enough to earn 15+ minutes a game and respond with 3 points in 3 games while in comparison Lindholm has 0 points with protected minutes yes I think it's fair to question the offensive upside. Heck Monahan is showing offense now while all of Lindholm's discussion is upside. Yes the sample is small but we're not performing forecasts here based on Monahan's puck poise or something. Monahan is getting real minutes and responding with real points. That's the ultimate goal of any prospect right? Monahan is doing it now and Lindholm will hopefully respond similarly in the not too distant future.

I'd LOVE it if Lindholm would be put in a position to get some bs secondary assists, empty net goals or lucky bounces. I think it would be great for his confidence and development. The problem is he is not even put in a position to get these things because he is playing with absolute turds.

 

[dogbazinho]

So teams don't make an adjustment in the NHL to rookies?

I'm gonna pencil Tomas Hertl in for 160 goals this season then.

Got minutes. Paid off.

 

[Lazyking]

Got minutes. Paid off.

Well it helps when you're playing with one of the best passers in the game and the other team barely pays attention to you.

Lindholm barely played in training camp, his mins should increase over time if he stays with the team.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Again, you keep talking about minutes.

Lindholm has to beat out Eric and Jordan to earn Top 6 minutes, something that clearly isn't going to happen at the moment nor was expected to happen.

Who does Monahan have to beat in Calgary for his minutes? No, seriously, I can't name a center in Calgary (unless Olli still plays there?).

Carolina drafted Lindholm in the hopes that he'll turn into a Backstrom-like player...eventually. Clearly, there's no rush given our current Top 6 centers. So we give him some NHL time, give him the 9 games, then send him on his way.

Calgary drafted Monahan to help them immediately. Because they were in desperate need of help in the center position (and frankly were supposed to begin rebuilding this year). They can afford to give him more minutes because he has no competition and if he fails, it's not a big issue.

 

[DaveG]

It's ALL about the situation the respective prospects are in. Calgary is prettymuch universally considered one of the worst teams in the sport and in perceived to have basically no hope at the playoffs. Basically they have guys playing on their top line that would have a hard time cracking our 3rd line.

It's so much easier for Monahan to get ice time with Stajan, Hudler, and Backlund as his competition then it is for Lindholm to get ice time with the Staals, and a Riley Nash that is meshing well with a former 60+ point scoring Calder winner to compete with. Calgary's putting him in a place to produce offensively. We're basically putting Lindholm in a similar situation to what Boston did with Seguin. I mean at this point in the season in 2010-11 Burmistrov was getting similar ice time to what Monahan's getting right now, while Seguin was getting Lindholm ice time. That's all that needs to be said.

 

[1989]

Flames fan here!

It's not like Monahan is seeing more than 3rd line duty but I guess playing with Stempniak/Jones/Baertschi for ~10 minutes a night while the coach has confidence in you beats Bowman/Sutter on your line and the coach is uncertain of your development.

They're honestly not in comparable situations right now. Bottom line for those "grass is always greener" types: Don't give up on Lindholm.

Calgary has the benefit of playing a certain style (I know it's late for you, but please try to catch a game if you can; what this team lacks in high-ened talent they make up for in high-octane energetic dedicated team play! ...mostly!) and under Hartley's guidance they roll a 2a/3a/3b/4a forward lineup that has most teams reeling with the speed of the team in the opening periods which can really open up the ice for a rookie.

In all fairness, unless the Hurricanes had drafted a player like Nischuskin, Drouin, or MacKinnon, I doubt Monahan or Lindholm would find much statistical success due in part to Carolina's system and their established top two centres. Don't worry about it yet, I'd give it ~3 seasons at most before a young player would get a real chance in the top 6.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Let's put it another way...

Say I'm somehow suddenly the first line winger next to Staal and Semin for the next 3 games. By some fluke, I get some assists by having pucks shot off my prone body as I attempt to stand in front of the net.

Is that you Chad?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The vast majority of Canes fans aren't worried. I don't believe it's a case where the coach is uncertain of his development, Muller himself stated that because of injuries, Lindholm missed most of training camp and wouldn't be ready for a larger role to start the season, so they are easing him into it. I see nothing wrong with that for a handful of games, even if it means he isn't putting up points. If after a handful of games or so, that hasn't changed, or he shows he's not ready, then the Canes should send him back to Sweden/AHL.

I have no idea if Monahan, or some other player drafted after Lindholm will be better than Lindholm in the long run, but using a 3 game sample of 18 year olds to make the comparison is about as ridiculous as it gets around here.

That said, I do think people under-rated Monahan's ability around here during the draft. Only time will tell, but that time needs to be measured in years, not days.

 

[Vagrant]

We don't even know if Lindholm is healthy. In fact, we can be pretty sure that he's not. Totally different situations with Lindholm and Monahan. I will admit that I had him pegged as the least offensive of the forwards in the first tier, but we're dealing with a small sample size here too. I kind of wish the Lindholm storyline could be delayed and have him sent down to play with Rask in the AHL for a bit and see how that helps him. Let him watch a few games from the pressbox maybe, if only the fans and media wouldn't flip out.

 

[1989]

The only thing I find strange that while Lindholm is not producing in a superior league, he does have prior experience in playing in a men's pro league via the SEL which should be more demanding than the OHL.

I would have had the expectation that his game would have transitioned quicker. Is that fair?

 

[Vagrant]

The only thing I find strange that while Lindholm is not producing in a superior league, he does have prior experience in playing in a men's pro league via the SEL which should be more demanding than the OHL.

I would have had the expectation that his game would have transitioned quicker. Is that fair?

With a full rookie camp, Traverse City, training camp, and preseason I would have agreed. What we're witnessing right now is the fact that he missed basically all of that. His adjustment period is happening right now, but those that are watching the nuances of his game are getting more encouraged by the signs. He's not looking to assert himself offensively enough. I would say that's a confidence thing, but his vision with the puck is absurdly strong. He's just a little intimidated by the level. Skill isn't the only measure of success in the NHL, a lot is in the mindset of the player. I don't think he's healthy and to make matters worse I don't think he's comfortable. Even still you can see the upside in his game. It's just going to be a matter of finding it. Plus, the powerplay has been so dreadful that we haven't had sustained setups to see what he can do in that format and that's where he gets the bulk of his minutes with likeminded players.

The first game of the year the play was dying on his stick. He has done a much better job in the second and third games. Nobody looked good in the third game, but the second he was strong.

 

[dogbazinho]

I have no idea if Monahan, or some other player drafted after Lindholm will be better than Lindholm in the long run, but using a 3 game sample of 18 year olds to make the comparison is about as ridiculous as it gets around here.

That said, I do think people under-rated Monahan's ability around here during the draft. Only time will tell, but that time needs to be measured in years, not days.

If sentence 1 is directed towards my comments please feel free to quote where I said Monahan is the better player based on 3 games. I said I question his evaluations, including mine, at draft time which seems to be the exact same thing you say in sentence 2. The other thing I question is this organization's handling of prospects and the notion that a player needs to go through the 4th line to break in here. Perhaps that is due to injuries and I sorta implied early on that's the only reasonable explanation to sheltering him at this point.

 

[dogbazinho]

Anyone stick out here?

MacKinnon 14.24 minutes/game
Barkov 14.4 minutes/game
Droin (Returned)
Seth Jones 23.07 minutes/game
Lindolm 8.4 minutes/game
Monahan 13.35 minutes/game
Nurse (Returned)
Ristolainen 17.31 minutes/game
Horvat (Returned)
Nichushkin 16.13 minutes/game

I'm going to assume all the players that aren't playing in the NHL are getting more than 8 minutes a game in their respective league. Lindhom is 43rd out of 54 rookies playing in the NHL in minutes played.

Now if it is injury related I guess we'll be seeing an increase in minutes as his fitness improves and injury heals or I hope he returns to Sweden where he can get minutes playing in a role that he was envisioned to play.

 

[bleedgreen]

Monahan is bigger, stronger, more fluid. A more graceful young staal. He isn't super fast, but is playing both ways. Lindholm hustles much more, is quicker, smarter, reads plays more aggressively. I think he's more skilled with the puck and his skating. Monahan shoots better, lindholm passes better. Monahan has the better pro body right now. I think lindholm has the higher upside, but monahan is more likely to reach his. Neither are bad choices, and I don't think monahan is really a step ahead. They need him to play, he has the body and is smart enough. Lindholm doesn't have the body yet. The flashes lindholm has shown are at a quicker, higher level. He spins and moves the puck faster than his body can move and almost falls over. He has a quicker mind. You can't go wrong with either at this point, and I was all for monahan. I think the fact he's so similar in some ways to a staal, that lindholm added something we don't have as much is the reason we took him. That euro skill level and playmaking this team lacks. Monahan wasn't moving a staal anytime soon, and they like lindholms versatility.

 

[rocky7]

nope noone has a crystal ball. noone knows how Lindholm will turn out one way or the other but someone said that Lindholm was projected to be a second line center at best IIRC, not a "franchise player" that so many had coveted in a draft such as this last one. the fact that Lindholm is being discussed to the extent he is and in the manner he has is pretty telling in and of itself imo. I would speculate as well, that he is the focus of much discussion amongst fans and other 'hockey people', that follow the Canes not just people on this here board. there are reasons for that and those reasons are certainly not because he is tearing it up. there are also many reasons, excuses if you will, as to why people have chosen to settle into a "wait and see" mode regarding Lindholm while other's are raving about their team's high end pick.

noone knows what goes on behind the scenes nor why Carolina chose to use their number five pick in a draft such as this on Lindholm. IIRC further, I think it's safe to say that he wasn't even on the radar of most around here and most were surprised when the announcement was made. most were of the feeling that they needed someone to make an impact "now" and it appears that won't be Lindholm (for whatever reason one chooses to believe).

yep, little is "known" about Elias Lindholm for sure. why he was selected and how he'll end up. one thing is certain however. he was a "safe" pick that many credit JR for making. problem is, safe isn't always the best course. so, we wait and see. and hope for the best.

in the meantime, Jeff Skinner is playing in the bottom six. go figure.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

If sentence 1 is directed towards my comments please feel free to quote where I said Monahan is the better player based on 3 games. I said I question his evaluations, including mine, at draft time which seems to be the exact same thing you say in sentence 2.

Ok, let me rephrase it then. Questioning evaluations of 18 year olds based on a 3 game sample is about as ridiculous as it gets around here.

I am not at all saying the same thing in sentence 2. I'm not questioning anything anything about Lindholm based on 3 games. Just saying that as with any draft, it will be years before we know, not 3 games.

I don't think you'll get an argument from anyone that if the Canes plan to play Lindholm on the 4th line long term this year, then it makes sense to send him back. I agree wholeheartedly with that. I just don't think a handful of games is anything to get worked up about. I have no idea what that number of games is, but for me, it's around the 8 game mark. If after that, he's still playing 4th line minutes, then I'll be singing from the same hymnal and wondering why they aren't sending him back.

The other thing I question is this organization's handling of prospects and the notion that a player needs to go through the 4th line to break in here.

You previously said that this organization has "ruined" prospects by making them go through the 4th line. Please show me the list of prospects that was ruined by having to play a few games on the 4th line?

 

[Vagrant]

I can't recall but I don't believe Skinner started on the 4th line. I don't think Eric did either. Murphy and Faulk both jumped directly into big minutes.

Brandon Sutter only averaged 8:50 during his rookie season, but if you'll look at the game logs you'll see that during his first 9 games (Junior evaluation period) he was sitting at 12:25 minutes per game and had 3 times exceeded 16 minutes in a game and once played 18:05. He certainly wasn't kicked to the 4th line until he deserved it by merit.

Zach Boychuk's two game audition had him at 12:03 per game. In terms of guys that were signed directly to the NHL and didn't go to the AHL, the assessment that players had to "play their way from the 4th line", is inaccurate in all cases save this one.

 

[rocky7]

I wasn't happy that they went with Lindholm and I'm still not. that's neither here nor there but JR sure ranted and raved about the guy and it was quite clear that to the organization, Lindholm would be playing this year and making an impact. well for whatever reasons/excuses he hasn't met those expectations and it seems pretty clear that he's not 'ready' to be an impact player at the NHL level yet. they have him signed now in any case and I hope they can manage to develop this kid into a decent player. time will tell I guess. I hope it pans out down the road but at this point in time it seems pretty damn clear to me that he needs further development somewhere. I understand people's arguments for the NHL, AHL, and sending him back home and this organization is supposedly full of "experts" in these matters from the scouts, to JR himself and the coaching staff. they are the guys who are going to make the decisions and they are going to make the right ones, right?

 

[the halleJOKEL]

Lindholm is legitimately terrible and looks like a 7th round draft pick, let alone a top five pick (or first overall like noted NHL superstar Sean Monahan).

 

[Joe McGrath]

Lindholm isn't going to send the season in Raleigh if he's playing on the 4th line all year. Contrary to ocular belief around here, Muller and JR aren't that stupid. If he's not good enough to play 3rd line minutes then he goes back to Sweden or to Charlotte. He's 18, it's not a big deal. By the time he fully develops Eric is probably going to be shifting to wing anyway.

 

[dogbazinho]

I can't recall but I don't believe Skinner started on the 4th line. I don't think Eric did either. Murphy and Faulk both jumped directly into big minutes.

Brandon Sutter only averaged 8:50 during his rookie season, but if you'll look at the game logs you'll see that during his first 9 games (Junior evaluation period) he was sitting at 12:25 minutes per game and had 3 times exceeded 16 minutes in a game and once played 18:05. He certainly wasn't kicked to the 4th line until he deserved it by merit.

Zach Boychuk's two game audition had him at 12:03 per game. In terms of guys that were signed directly to the NHL and didn't go to the AHL, the assessment that players had to "play their way from the 4th line", is inaccurate in all cases save this one.

Sorry that my 4th line comment is being interpreted literally. That was my fault and perhaps is based in my skewed memory of Boychuk and Bowman's career. I feel like this team drafts players based on a particular skillset they feel the player has and then often through impatience or perhaps some need to develop certain other skills plays them in positions where the skills which we drafted them for can't develop.

I feel like Lindholm has a future as a playmaker and is playing and practicing with people incapable of being on the receiving end of that talent. I feel like this causes the player to adjust their game to a different style to one that we liked enough to draft. I feel there is a disconnect between the vision the scouts have and the vision the coach or staff has. I felt that the Canes have done this in the past with players like Dalpe, Boychuk, Bowman, players that I thought had offensive upside but were constantly brought in and out of various lines, unable to find a consistent spot were their offensive talents could be developed. Perhaps this was on the 4th, perhaps it was on the 3rd or perhaps it was constant line juggling where it's very difficult for even the best players to produce.

Skinner I do think is an exception to this and I think that is in part because he responded offensively almost instantly. He also seems to be able to make plays 1 on 1 where line shuffling or being on the 3rd line is less noticeable I don't think this is an option for some prospects.

Perhaps it's coincidence but Staal's biggest jump as a player was the year after the lockout where he spent his time in the AHL with a bit more stability and playing the role we envisioned him for.