Career Value: Jagr - Lafleur
- Thread starter markrander87
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Czech Your Math
I am lizard king
I was thinking the same thing, that it would be a lot closer if Jagr didn't return after the lockout.
Your summary of his Rangers years is basically accurate, but I would say there was a substantial difference between his first and second seasons in NY, more than is shown by his points.
In 2006, Jagr had a dominating season. If Thornton wasn't traded (or probably if no Olympics), Jagr likely wins the Ross/Richard and Hart/Pearson. There were very few who watched a good portion of his season and didn't conclude he was the best skater in the league that season, although perhaps the same could be said of Thornton (I'm not counting the media, i.e. Hart votes, here... I mean core fans, players, coaches, GMs, etc.).
While his 2006 season is still not fully appreciated by some, he was not close to the same player in 2007 (due to injury, not age). As unfortunate as he was in 2006 to not win other awards besides the Pearson, he was fortunate in 2007 to finish top 10 in scoring (the breaks went his way more, weird as it may sound).
It's sort of similar to how his 1996 season is not given its full credit (because he finished second to Lemieux in scoring), while his 2001 season was not nearly as good and yet he won a Ross that year.
It's actually a bit strange that his last three seasons in the NHL added so much not only to his career value, but to his legacy and overall impression on many people. I say this, because as great as he was in 2006, he had several seasons of similar or greater value, his 2007 season is barely among his top ten, and his 2008 regular season was obviously one of his worst.
Just goes to show the importance of perception and his years after 2004 helped change this perception in some important ways:
- Played elite hockey well into his 30s. Not just in 2006, but to a much lesser extent in 2007, in the playoffs, in the KHL in 2005 (would have led league in scoring if didn't also play in Czech league), and in international play (world cup and world champ. during lockout, two Olympics, other world championships). Also continued to play elite hockey in the playoffs, helping Nylander to be the playoff point/game leader in 2007, while Jagr was leader in playoff points after being ousted in round two in 2008.
- More team success. During lockout he was a world cup medalist, won a championship tournament in Omsk, and an unusually high quality world championships. He led the Rangers to three straight playoffs, after they had failed to make it several years with the likes of Messier, Leetch, Richter, Gretzky, Lindros, etc, (they were older, but so was Jagr during his tenure there). He also was an Olympic medalist and won a world championship on a team where only he and Vokoun were known.
- Re-evaluation of his pre-lockout seasons. First, his 2.5 seasons with Caps were shown to be more of an aberration than reflective of the player he was. It was far from an ideal situation, one he probably could have handled better, but ultimately not his choosing. Also, the increased acceptance of adjusted points (whether de facto or conceptually) and new evidence such as adjusted even strength data and the compilation of Hart shares put Jagr's peak and career in an even better light historically, showing him to be one of the very best scorers and players in history.
It's surprising how lopsided this poll is, not because Jagr's career value was not substantially more than Lafleur's (obviously most believe it was), but because of what a great player Lafleur was and how great he was perceived to be. The change is in the perception of Jagr, not in that of Lafleur. Four years ago, many considered it an outrage that in polls of best all-time forwards, Jagr finished higher (or finished behind but received great support) than forwards such as Lafleur, Esposito, Mikita, Messier, Clarke, Bossy, etc. Now, while there is a wide variety of opinion on most of those players (probably the least variance would be in the cases of Lafleur and Mikita), more and more the burden of proof is on those contesting Jagr's legacy rather than on those who believe he was one of the all-time greats.
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Lafleur and Jagr. Two players who scored the two most famous tying goals ever in SC playoffs.
I might give the edge to Jagr, but Lafleur is another player, every time a watch a game with him in it, he shows me just how much he dominated the game. That third period against Boston in game 7 of '79.
If only he hadn't had all those injuries from 79/80 to 82/83. Anyone here think he could have squeezed the Art Ross from Dionne in 79/80 had he not missed those 6 games. I've watched some games from the next 3 seasons and he still looks great...
I might give the edge to Jagr, but Lafleur is another player, every time a watch a game with him in it, he shows me just how much he dominated the game. That third period against Boston in game 7 of '79.
If only he hadn't had all those injuries from 79/80 to 82/83. Anyone here think he could have squeezed the Art Ross from Dionne in 79/80 had he not missed those 6 games. I've watched some games from the next 3 seasons and he still looks great...
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Czech Your Math
I am lizard king
Unlikely that he would have won Ross in '80, considering he was at least .05 PPG behind both Gretzky and Dionne. However if his injuries were limiting his play in the games he did play, then who knows?
Still, he was closer in points to Gretzky and Dionne than the rest of the league was to him, so that's a truly great season.
It sure seems like the most highly skilled players don't really lose much in terms of skill even in their 30's, they just get worn down by injuries, lose some speed, have a harder time enduring the grueling schedule and have more off games than they do during their primes.
Big Phil
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- Nov 2, 2003
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Okay I should know this but frankly I don't. His classic goal against the Hawks in '92 wasn't a game tying goal was it? Other than that what is it?
And that's the thing, if it's a peak vs. peak thing you have a very close discussion where I personally could flip flop on either one. As for career value I don't think it's a huge debate anymore since Jagr was healthier and played elite hockey in his 30s
Not so much 1980, because he'd need 12 points in 6 games (although I wouldn't put it by him) but more importantly a season that gets forgotten with him is 1975. He missed 10 games and was 16 short of Orr for the Art Ross. In my opinion he has a much richer chance at that time
Mantha Poodoo
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Czech Your Math
I am lizard king
The goal where he skated through four Blackhawks in their zone before backhanding it past Belfour tied Game 1 of the SCF in the third period. Lemieux scored the GWG later in the period.
I know what you mean. I think Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Gordie Howe, Maurice Richard, Bobby Hull and a few others are overrated for already stated reasons.
Big Phil
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Big Phil
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No, not really. If I read the question right I assume he was insinuating that Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe etc. are overrated for "stated reasons"
TheGoldenJet
Registered User
Not speculation. Just look at what happened in Washington when Jagr was asked to play a little more defence.
"I want to play on the PP or Im not going on the ice!"
If he tried that sh** with Lemaire he would be relegated to 4th line duty for the rest of the year.
Not speculation. Just look at what happened in Washington when Jagr was asked to play a little more defence.
"I want to play on the PP or Im not going on the ice!"
If he tried that sh** with Lemaire he would be relegated to 4th line duty for the rest of the year.
Poor Guy, he ended up with Lemaire in 83/84, late in the season, and then the next year we all remember.
Gawd! Wish that hadn't happened to Lafleur. You know, I never even liked the guy when he played! I sure should have! What a crummy way to end his career as a Hab! I sure feel guilty for not liking him!
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