Career Success = Trophies and Awards?

steveayres35

Registered User
Apr 27, 2018
346
61
I'm asking this because I'd like to question the greatest players of all time and their SCF accomplishments.

Henri Richard had a 20 year career in the NHL. He won the most cups as a player with 11. He only won one award in his entire NHL career as well. So, does that make him the greatest NHL player of all time since he has more cups than Gretzky, Lemieux, and Crosby combined?

Just look at Dan Marino and Barry Sanders, what do these 2 players have in common? Their lack of championships. But, they're still in the HOF for other reasons.

So, why are players judged when they don't have as many SC wins as predicted?
 

Michael Farkas

Grace Personified
Jun 28, 2006
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This isn't the NFL...rational people don't rate individual players on championships alone or with the heaviest weight.

You rate on impact on the game (a lot goes into this) and part of that formula is championships, that's rightfully a factor...but, at least here, we don't give the incredible gravity to Cups that NFL fans give to Super Bowls (but, yet, not NFL championships)...which is crazy because the NFL has by far the weakest/easiest playoffs...
 

steveayres35

Registered User
Apr 27, 2018
346
61
This isn't the NFL...rational people don't rate individual players on championships alone or with the heaviest weight.

You rate on impact on the game (a lot goes into this) and part of that formula is championships, that's rightfully a factor...but, at least here, we don't give the incredible gravity to Cups that NFL fans give to Super Bowls (but, yet, not NFL championships)...which is crazy because the NFL has by far the weakest/easiest playoffs...
It's because of the single elimination games. I'm not sure if the NFL would have the time to do several playoff series.
 

BigBadBruins7708

Registered User
Dec 11, 2017
13,580
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Las Vegas
I'm asking this because I'd like to question the greatest players of all time and their SCF accomplishments.

Henri Richard had a 20 year career in the NHL. He won the most cups as a player with 11. He only won one award in his entire NHL career as well. So, does that make him the greatest NHL player of all time since he has more cups than Gretzky, Lemieux, and Crosby combined?

Just look at Dan Marino and Barry Sanders, what do these 2 players have in common? Their lack of championships. But, they're still in the HOF for other reasons.

So, why are players judged when they don't have as many SC wins as predicted?

no but when 2 players have had extremely similar careers, they can be the tie breaker.

no one values or devalues a player on championships alone...however if said player wins many titles, or none, that is still part of their career story.
 

mrhockey193195

Registered User
Nov 14, 2006
6,513
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Denver, CO
Another thing to add on - even when you talk about number of cups, the relative contribution of the player and their role on that team should matter. Are Darren McCarty's 3 cups more impressive than Anze Kopitar's 2? No, because the former was a 3rd/4th liner (who, granted, filled his role EXTREMELY well and deserves a ton of credit for his contributions) and the latter was a 1C, face of the franchise, star player that played the most minutes of any forward and went against the other team's toughest players.
 

Ishdul

Registered User
Jan 20, 2007
3,989
144
This isn't the NFL...rational people don't rate individual players on championships alone or with the heaviest weight.

You rate on impact on the game (a lot goes into this) and part of that formula is championships, that's rightfully a factor...but, at least here, we don't give the incredible gravity to Cups that NFL fans give to Super Bowls (but, yet, not NFL championships)...which is crazy because the NFL has by far the weakest/easiest playoffs...
Outside of quarterbacks I don't think there's all that much consideration for rings in the NFL. Players like Barry Sanders, Tony Gonzalez, Anthony Munoz, etc. are regularly considered among the best ever at their position despite not having Superbowls to their name. Dick Butkus never made the playoffs and was mostly on mediocre to bad defenses yet is frequently listed as a top 10 player in history. Joe Thomas just retired after 11 seasons where he never made the playoffs and his team averaged a little over 4 wins a year and yet is considered the best offensive lineman of his generation. Charles Haley had the most rings in NFL history as a player before Brady matched him last year and was a pretty deserving player altogether yet had to wait over 10 years after eligibility to be inducted. I don't think a lot of the 80's 49ers, 90's Cowboys or 2000's Patriots have gotten that much extra burn from being part of the big dynasties. Even for the Steelers it's really just Swann and Stallworth who really fit that bill.
 

Admiral Awesome

Registered User
Jun 8, 2015
384
162
Right and QB is the only thing people really talk about these days...which is not a disagreement with your point.
To a certain extent, yes, but I don't think the HOF is gonna be blowing up Joe Flacco's phone the minute he's eligible. Eli Manning probably won't (or at least shouldn't) get in either, and Jim Plunkett is still waiting for his gold jacket.
 

Zegras Zebra

Registered User
May 7, 2016
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120
Winnipeg, Manitoba
The poster child league for Championship Rings = Greatness is the NBA. Unlike hockey, or football one great player can have a bigger impact on team success. Right now LeBron basically carried a team of average players to the NBA Finals. A great NFL quarterback might be able to do that if they had a competent defense but there are other factors at play as well. A great NHL player can't drag an average team to a championship because a first line forward averages around 22 minutes a game, a great defenceman maybe 30 minutes a game. You can't have the same impact if you only play 1/3 or 1/2 a game compared to playing a full game like an NBA star. It's why the Micheal Jordan is the GOAT because he has 6 rings argument is so often used.
 

Admiral Awesome

Registered User
Jun 8, 2015
384
162
The poster child league for Championship Rings = Greatness is the NBA. Unlike hockey, or football one great player can have a bigger impact on team success. Right now LeBron basically carried a team of average players to the NBA Finals. A great NFL quarterback might be able to do that if they had a competent defense but there are other factors at play as well. A great NHL player can't drag an average team to a championship because a first line forward averages around 22 minutes a game, a great defenceman maybe 30 minutes a game. You can't have the same impact if you only play 1/3 or 1/2 a game compared to playing a full game like an NBA star. It's why the Micheal Jordan is the GOAT because he has 6 rings argument is so often used.
Could be one of the reasons why Cups carry a bit more weight when at comes to goalies as opposed to skaters.
 

Zegras Zebra

Registered User
May 7, 2016
525
120
Winnipeg, Manitoba
Could be one of the reasons why Cups carry a bit more weight when at comes to goalies as opposed to skaters.
Maybe, but goalies are usually more random. Sure a goalie getting hot at the right time could lead an average team on a deep playoff run (ex. J.S. Giguere in 2003), but a great goalie might not be able to help his team get as far. Hasek is considered by many to be the greatest goalie of all time and he didn't win a Stanley Cup until he was past his prime with the Red Wings. An average goalie could definitely win a Stanley Cup without playing spectacular if they had a great team. It's still not the same level as a great NBA player who affects all aspects of the game whereas a great goalie doesn't contribute offensively (unless there is an empty net but usually the game is in control if a goalie gets that opportunity).
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,590
15,951
Another thing to add on - even when you talk about number of cups, the relative contribution of the player and their role on that team should matter. Are Darren McCarty's 3 cups more impressive than Anze Kopitar's 2? No, because the former was a 3rd/4th liner (who, granted, filled his role EXTREMELY well and deserves a ton of credit for his contributions) and the latter was a 1C, face of the franchise, star player that played the most minutes of any forward and went against the other team's toughest players.

not on topic, but mccarty actually has four cups. came back for the last one, and even got into more games than maltby.


The poster child league for Championship Rings = Greatness is the NBA. Unlike hockey, or football one great player can have a bigger impact on team success. Right now LeBron basically carried a team of average players to the NBA Finals. A great NFL quarterback might be able to do that if they had a competent defense but there are other factors at play as well. A great NHL player can't drag an average team to a championship because a first line forward averages around 22 minutes a game, a great defenceman maybe 30 minutes a game. You can't have the same impact if you only play 1/3 or 1/2 a game compared to playing a full game like an NBA star. It's why the Micheal Jordan is the GOAT because he has 6 rings argument is so often used.

i wouldn’t say that. i mean, they are debating jordan vs lebron with a straight face and lebron has lost five (six?) finals.
 

Asheville

Registered User
Feb 1, 2018
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Henri Richard had a 20 year career in the NHL. He won the most cups as a player with 11. He only won one award in his entire NHL career as well. So, does that make him the greatest NHL player of all time since he has more cups than Gretzky, Lemieux, and Crosby combined?

There is a particular History poster who believes the Pocket Rocket is the greatest playoff performer for that exact reason.
 

Admiral Awesome

Registered User
Jun 8, 2015
384
162
You're naming exceptions (perhaps with Eli), not rules....consider converse as well...
Not really. Joe Theisman, Jim McMahon, Phil Simms, Doug Williams, Jeff Hostettler, Mark Rypien, Trent Dilfer, and Brad Johnson are probably never going to be inducted, either.

I'll just leave it at that, as this is a hockey forum.
 

alko

Registered User
Oct 20, 2004
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Slovakia
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The poster child league for Championship Rings = Greatness is the NBA. Unlike hockey, or football one great player can have a bigger impact on team success. Right now LeBron basically carried a team of average players to the NBA Finals. A great NFL quarterback might be able to do that if they had a competent defense but there are other factors at play as well. A great NHL player can't drag an average team to a championship because a first line forward averages around 22 minutes a game, a great defenceman maybe 30 minutes a game. You can't have the same impact if you only play 1/3 or 1/2 a game compared to playing a full game like an NBA star. It's why the Micheal Jordan is the GOAT because he has 6 rings argument is so often used.

I disagree. A "Legend" would in his 20-22 minutes on ice score crucial goals. Especially in overtime. Or we could put a goalie here. Look for example to Montreal Canadiens. With Carey Price in his "Vezina, Hart, Lindsay" mode they can make it to the top. Without it, they are doomed.
 

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