OT: Career advice Part II

[CasusBelli]

So I spoke to a coworker who also got promoted to the same level and was upset about the raise. Am I being too patient in trying to get experience in a new industry and function? I try not think of how underpaid I am (even with the raise) and look at the positives and be patient for the future. I have classmates making more than 3 times what I'm making now out of business school (with bonuses). Am I a sucker? I don't know, I'm happy that I got recognized and I love everything about my job but I'm really underpaid.

People often exaggerate their salaries. For example, I’ve had junior traders say they make $200k, but then MDs and HR say otherwise. Celebrate your victories; don’t get complacent. Enjoying your job also immensely enhances your quality of life — and in the end salary matters only because higher salaries (generally) enhance quality of life. Of course, you should never get complacent, and keep improving yourself. Don’t get stuck in the same place for too long. Move around every few years — that’s when the big raises happen.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

People often exaggerate their salaries. For example, I’ve had junior traders say they make $200k, but then MDs and HR say otherwise. Celebrate your victories; don’t get complacent. Enjoying your job also immensely enhances your quality of life — and in the end salary matters only because higher salaries (generally) enhance quality of life. Of course, you should never get complacent, and keep improving yourself. Don’t get stuck in the same place for too long. Move around every few years — that’s when the big raises happen.

I hate to say it, but I have a competitive streak in me where salary is more than just how much I can buy, it's a signal of success and competence to me. When I have friends making 3 to 4 times as much as me it's tough pill to swallow.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

So... there are a lot of things to unpack here. Without asking too many personal questions, I'll see what I can do.

Delaware as a whole is a largely COLA state. I don't know if you work as a remote employee making a DE salary living in PA or you work for a DE company at a physical location in PA and are being paid PA wages.

Generally, anytime a person relocates and it is of their own volition, rather than a company request, you aren't necessarily entitled to anything.

Additionally, COLA isn't always commensurate with an exact % above the average COLA amount. This is because it can sometimes fluctuate greatly year to year. It is generally a flat dollar amount that all employees that live in what the company designates as a COLA area, are entitled to. I will say, using online sources like Sperlings/bestplacestolive aren't your best option. They are generally not very accurate. Most employers use COLI report from the federal government. It is a paid for report and it does a nice job of breaking down Cost of Living into a lot of smaller subsections that allow you to look at things in detail vs. at a macro level.

I work in Human Resources and am responsible for our COLA policy/territory list, if you were wondering how I know so much about this. You're more than welcome to PM me if you have questions you don't feel comfortable asking here.

Curious: How much say does HR have in raises?

I am basically asking for my salary to be doubled (not kidding) in July. I am hoping to achieve 2/3 of that roughly. The actual head of our Manhattan ops won't have a problem with it, but the raise percentage will raise (no pun intended) red flags at corporate. So I am genuinely curious about what say, if any, HR tends of have over stuff like this.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

People often exaggerate their salaries. For example, I’ve had junior traders say they make $200k, but then MDs and HR say otherwise. Celebrate your victories; don’t get complacent. Enjoying your job also immensely enhances your quality of life — and in the end salary matters only because higher salaries (generally) enhance quality of life. Of course, you should never get complacent, and keep improving yourself. Don’t get stuck in the same place for too long. Move around every few years — that’s when the big raises happen.

That's if you network. I don't have time to network since I am really f***ing good at my job, really f***ing good with my clients, and spend most of my time doing my work or traveling. I feel like many folks who move often don't end up serving their clients well. Granted, if you're not client-facing, who gives a shit?

 

[CasusBelli]

That's if you network. I don't have time to network since I am really ****ing good at my job, really ****ing good with my clients, and spend most of my time doing my work or traveling. I feel like many folks who move often don't end up serving their clients well. Granted, if you're not client-facing, who gives a ****?

Client-facing consultants, investment banking advisors and traders move regularly, because their clients are really the institution’s and because switching companies every few years pays better than waiting for a raise or promotion. But then each industry operates differently.

 

[CasusBelli]

I hate to say it, but I have a competitive streak in me where salary is more than just how much I can buy, it's a signal of success and competence to me. When I have friends making 3 to 4 times as much as me it's tough pill to swallow.

I relate to that. In this case, that competitiveness affects your quality of life, so my point is to not neglect other things that affect it (work-life balance or passion for your career — if they affect you) in order to lift one variable that does. Just be honest with yourself about your priorities is all I’m saying.

 

[Gardner McKay]

I got $5,000 in options and I'll have more for 1 year tenure. I don't know how much that could mean if I wait it out. The company has had some very good people working for it. One I know went to Goldman, one to blackrock, and one to Facebook. I think they take advantage of inefficiency in the market where a lot of capable people have a harder time finding a job than they should. Then those people leave and they start the proces again.

Depending on the number of options, the strike price, if there are immediate vesting conditions upon a sale, etc. it could mean a varying degree of money on the back end.

Unless you already work for a publicly traded company, the "value" of those options is irrelevant.

Curious: How much say does HR have in raises?

I am basically asking for my salary to be doubled (not kidding) in July. I am hoping to achieve 2/3 of that roughly. The actual head of our Manhattan ops won't have a problem with it, but the raise percentage will raise (no pun intended) red flags at corporate. So I am genuinely curious about what say, if any, HR tends of have over stuff like this.

I can answer that two ways... A lot and a little.

One of HR's primary functions within compensation is to ensure pay equity and avoid salary compression. So if your organization is very HR-centric, they probably have a lot of say. If not, they likely take the data provided to them from HR and will use it as more a of a suggestion rather than a requirement.

Every organization, HR-centric or not wants to avoid salary compression. I realize now that most people have no idea what salary compression is so here is an extremely basic example:

Assume your organization has the starting salaries of $100,000 for a Manager, $125,000 for Sr. Manager, $160,000 for Director, $185,000 for Sr. Director. If you are looking for a Sr. Manager and your top candidate is requesting $145,000, you simply can't do it. At $145,000 there would be minimal room for merit/raises and a promotion to Director would have their starting Director salary near that of a Sr. Director.

In theory, as long as your requested raise isn't bumping up against a higher level role, it should be possible.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Client-facing consultants, investment banking advisors and traders move regularly, because their clients are really the institution’s and because switching companies every few years pays better than waiting for a raise or promotion. But then each industry operates differently.

That's more on the junior level, though. Once you start moving up, those clients and the relationships developed do tend to matter a lot more. My industry is the same way in that junior client facing people move all the time.

 

[McRanger]

I hate to say it, but I have a competitive streak in me where salary is more than just how much I can buy, it's a signal of success and competence to me. When I have friends making 3 to 4 times as much as me it's tough pill to swallow.

That mentality is probably more common than uncommon.

For me I found most of it directly tied to working at a financial institution. Once I switched industries I was surprised how much less I cared. (Though the annoyance when doofus is out-earning you never really goes away completely, no matter what you do.)

 

[Thordic]

Assume your organization has the starting salaries of $100,000 for a Manager, $125,000 for Sr. Manager, $160,000 for Director, $185,000 for Sr. Director. If you are looking for a Sr. Manager and your top candidate is requesting $145,000, you simply can't do it. At $145,000 there would be minimal room for merit/raises and a promotion to Director would have their starting Director salary near that of a Sr. Director.

In my experience, there's always a range with a minimum and a maximum per position. HR generally wants you to come in somewhere in the middle. Underpaid staff leads to higher turnover, which no one wants to deal with. Overpaid staff makes senior management unhappy, and also leads to no room for merit as noted above. Generally the ranges are pretty large, but going outside the range is usually like pulling teeth for the manager trying to get it approved. All sorts of red tape to get an exception approved. I can't think of a single position where doubling even the minimum salary wouldn't lead to exceeding the maximum range for the position. In my experience it's usually a range of roughly +/- 25% of the regional average salary for the position as defined by your HR/Comp folks. So if a position pays an average of $100k in your job market, the range will be from $75k to $125k. Individual companies will have slightly different scales but I've seen this or very similar a couple times. Certain industries may have wide latitude here though, if there is a super competitive market for that position and the HR scale isn't keeping up with demand. Also the higher the salary / more senior the position, the more this breaks down as highly compensated / senior folks get to make their own demands to an extent. Similarly Goldman Sachs and Google, trying to to get the best business school / tech talent, are going to bid whatever they need to bid to get the staff they want.

Asking to double your salary is going to be an uphill battle unless you are REALLY in demand. I've seen people pull similar things where the company balks and the person ends up unemployed so definitely do all your homework first.

 

[Roo Returns]

Question for everyone about your opinions on work-life balance. I've expressed how I feel about the NY market/mentality quite often here and I know many don't agree with my own experience or attitude but I appreciate the input (I always say I'm the most un-NY NYer you will ever meet. I don't enjoy the fast paced lifestyle and cut throat attitude, but I was born here and have lived most of my life here and love my family, friends, sports, food, availability of everything, etc).

In any event I made it through a year at my job and got a fairly good review after feeling like it was going to implode at any moment. The company is going through some changes and I've been given a lot of responsibility. The issue is it's pretty much if I don't work 6-7 days a week, I fall behind. I took some time off for my bday last month and actually ended up working about 12 hours during a vacation as I was needed (luckily I got most of the time back). I did it because it was the right thing to do and while I hate dressing up and suits (lol) and deep down I'm about 13-year-old maturity wise, some of my core values are duty, honor, and if asked to own something, do it to the best of your ability. It's not a complaint just more of an example of events I'm providing.

Recently my closest work friend gave notice and said it was all about work-life balance.

I'm curious of opinions on this. I completely understand the whole you need to take care of yourself or you'll fatigue or get sick which many people have said to me at work or in my personal life, but the other end is it's a lot of good meat I can throw on my resume for down the road.

I've definitely missed out more functions, concerts, hangouts, which is fine, and as you all see my posting here has decreased exponentially, but as a single person it's really hard to start something up or even attempt to when you're working 12-13 hour days+ a commute and have nothing left in the tank on weekends with errands and tasks to do.

My original plan was to do the NY thing for 2-3 years, kick %$%^, and then head West (dream job is working for Seattle NHL), but the West is looking less and less likely given how expensive it is and my social circle out there has changed for the worse so I'm leaning more towards the South.

So what say everyone about work-life balance, passion projects, and working your %# off for a calendar year for your personal career development and then moving on?

 

[Bricho]

Question for everyone about your opinions on work-life balance. I've expressed how I feel about the NY market/mentality quite often here and I know many don't agree with my own experience or attitude but I appreciate the input (I always say I'm the most un-NY NYer you will ever meet. I don't enjoy the fast paced lifestyle and cut throat attitude, but I was born here and have lived most of my life here and love my family, friends, sports, food, availability of everything, etc).

In any event I made it through a year at my job and got a fairly good review after feeling like it was going to implode at any moment. The company is going through some changes and I've been given a lot of responsibility. The issue is it's pretty much if I don't work 6-7 days a week, I fall behind. I took some time off for my bday last month and actually ended up working about 12 hours during a vacation as I was needed (luckily I got most of the time back). I did it because it was the right thing to do and while I hate dressing up and suits (lol) and deep down I'm about 13-year-old maturity wise, some of my core values are duty, honor, and if asked to own something, do it to the best of your ability. It's not a complaint just more of an example of events I'm providing.

Recently my closest work friend gave notice and said it was all about work-life balance.

I'm curious of opinions on this. I completely understand the whole you need to take care of yourself or you'll fatigue or get sick which many people have said to me at work or in my personal life, but the other end is it's a lot of good meat I can throw on my resume for down the road.

I've definitely missed out more functions, concerts, hangouts, which is fine, and as you all see my posting here has decreased exponentially, but as a single person it's really hard to start something up or even attempt to when you're working 12-13 hour days+ a commute and have nothing left in the tank on weekends with errands and tasks to do.

My original plan was to do the NY thing for 2-3 years, kick %$%^, and then head West (dream job is working for Seattle NHL), but the West is looking less and less likely given how expensive it is and my social circle out there has changed for the worse so I'm leaning more towards the South.

So what say everyone about work-life balance, passion projects, and working your %# off for a calendar year for your personal career development and then moving on?

No one will be able to answer this question for you as it’s different for everyone. Additionally as you go through your life you’ll notice it’ll change for you too. If you don’t mind devoting more of your efforts to your work sphere then you should do just that. If at some point it doesn’t work for you I’m sure you can find another arrangement that does. I spent most of my 20s in a PhD program and missed out on a lot but at that age, it seemed the best thing to do. Now I’m a stay-home dad to twin first graders and this seems like the right thing to do.

My advice then is to not worry, it seems to be working out now, but if at some point in the future your work does become grating, then you have to seriously reconsider your chosen career/job. It just doesn’t seem from your post you’re there yet.

 

[Roo Returns]

No one will be able to answer this question for you as it’s different for everyone. Additionally as you go through your life you’ll notice it’ll change for you too. If you don’t mind devoting more of your efforts to your work sphere then you should do just that. If at some point it doesn’t work for you I’m sure you can find another arrangement that does. I spent most of my 20s in a PhD program and missed out on a lot but at that age, it seemed the best thing to do. Now I’m a stay-home dad to twin first graders and this seems like the right thing to do.

My advice then is to not worry, it seems to be working out now, but if at some point in the future your work does become grating, then you have to seriously reconsider your chosen career/job. It just doesn’t seem from your post you’re there yet.

Thanks @Bricho. Yeah absolutely it's an individual thing and every situation is unique. I ask these questions because it's good to learn from peoples experiences and apply to your own. Even only if it's a little.

I'm not looking to make a shift immediately. Everything will be status quo now and I'll deal with the tasks and "missions" I have. But I always have one eye on the future. Someone once asked me why I care so much about the future and I jokingly said "I was a Rangers fan who went through 1998-2004"

The work is somewhat grating now but I can get it done. I think ultimately the most longterm questions I have are where is this going? If I successfully complete all these tasks do I get a promotion, pay raise, a chance to move around? When am I going to have a moment to breath and knock out passion projects? When will I have time to actually date and is this the right environment (NY) to do it in?

Those are the big three I'm thinking about now. The work itself, I'm fine for the next 6-12 months but it is something that needs to be reassessed.

 

[TheGortonConspiracy]

How soon is too soon to negotiate a salary. I am starting a new role at my company in a month, I did notice there are H1B disclosures on our HR portal which say they hired someone for the same job title as me in August with a salary range 30 to 45% higher than me. I asked the HR person they said that person had more experience and I am higher risk/inexperienced.

 

[Kane One]

Just randomly got an email about an opening at MSG as a hockey instructor. Thought I’d share just in case anyone here is interested.

https://neuvoo.com/view/?id=d85fa4c85b89

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Just randomly got an email about an opening at MSG as a hockey instructor. Thought I’d share just in case anyone here is interested.

https://neuvoo.com/view/?id=d85fa4c85b89

Is David Quinn getting fired?

 

[LokiDog]

I relate to that. In this case, that competitiveness affects your quality of life, so my point is to not neglect other things that affect it (work-life balance or passion for your career — if they affect you) in order to lift one variable that does. Just be honest with yourself about your priorities is all I’m saying.

This is a great post. I make a good salary, have the potential for $500-5000 in bonuses each quarter, as well as an end of year bonus of around $5000 and mileage and toll reimbursement. I’m in a position where I travel frequently on my company’s dime and when I do hotels and dining out is covered. My travel is low enough that it doesn’t effect my relationship or family planning but enough to be fun and rewarding. I make a competitive salary that affords me a nice life but I also make about half of what a couple of my friends make. The thing is, when I’m doing well and no fires need to be put out, I can work about 35-45 hours a week. My friends who make more are working around 65 hours and they’re stressed, they’re gaining weight, they seem happy but tenuously and I see them burning out before they hit 40. I’m climbing mountains with my girlfriend, taking vacations, living relatively well and still healthy, happy and nowhere near my burn out threshold. I value that about as much as I would increasing my salary by 60%.

 

[Irishguy42]

Dumb question, but in looking for jobs, and you come across the website of a company you want to work for, but there is no "Employment opportunities" page or something like that....what's the proper protocol here?

Is it too forward to find the HR email or something and make known your intentions?

 

[Chaels Arms]

Question for everyone about your opinions on work-life balance. I've expressed how I feel about the NY market/mentality quite often here and I know many don't agree with my own experience or attitude but I appreciate the input (I always say I'm the most un-NY NYer you will ever meet. I don't enjoy the fast paced lifestyle and cut throat attitude, but I was born here and have lived most of my life here and love my family, friends, sports, food, availability of everything, etc).

In any event I made it through a year at my job and got a fairly good review after feeling like it was going to implode at any moment. The company is going through some changes and I've been given a lot of responsibility. The issue is it's pretty much if I don't work 6-7 days a week, I fall behind. I took some time off for my bday last month and actually ended up working about 12 hours during a vacation as I was needed (luckily I got most of the time back). I did it because it was the right thing to do and while I hate dressing up and suits (lol) and deep down I'm about 13-year-old maturity wise, some of my core values are duty, honor, and if asked to own something, do it to the best of your ability. It's not a complaint just more of an example of events I'm providing.

Recently my closest work friend gave notice and said it was all about work-life balance.

I'm curious of opinions on this. I completely understand the whole you need to take care of yourself or you'll fatigue or get sick which many people have said to me at work or in my personal life, but the other end is it's a lot of good meat I can throw on my resume for down the road.

I've definitely missed out more functions, concerts, hangouts, which is fine, and as you all see my posting here has decreased exponentially, but as a single person it's really hard to start something up or even attempt to when you're working 12-13 hour days+ a commute and have nothing left in the tank on weekends with errands and tasks to do.

My original plan was to do the NY thing for 2-3 years, kick %$%^, and then head West (dream job is working for Seattle NHL), but the West is looking less and less likely given how expensive it is and my social circle out there has changed for the worse so I'm leaning more towards the South.

So what say everyone about work-life balance, passion projects, and working your %# off for a calendar year for your personal career development and then moving on?

Really happy I stumbled on this conversation as strangely enough this is a topic that can be hard to talk about even with those close to you.

Like someone else said, no one is going to be able to tell you what's best for you. But I do think it's important to take note of the signs.

For me, I worked while going to law school at night. It was definitely challenging and required some sacrifices but it never completely felt like it was draining my ability to enjoy life. I still saw friends, got to work out, was in decent shape and did most of the hobbies I liked to do like bicycling, hiking, etc.

I've now been practicing law for around 3 years and the work/life balance is just absolutely brutal. I work at least 6 days a week around 10-12 hours a day. Even when I'm "off" I'm still connected. And again, looking at the signs, it is taking its toll. I have gained a scary amount of weight, rarely see friends or have any social life and almost never do any of the activities I used to enjoy. For me, I fully intend on seeking an exit soon. I am making great money but it's not worth the tradeoff. I will take a smaller income for a little bit better work/life balance.

 

[Roo Returns]

Really happy I stumbled on this conversation as strangely enough this is a topic that can be hard to talk about even with those close to you.

Like someone else said, no one is going to be able to tell you what's best for you. But I do think it's important to take note of the signs.

For me, I worked while going to law school at night. It was definitely challenging and required some sacrifices but it never completely felt like it was draining my ability to enjoy life. I still saw friends, got to work out, was in decent shape and did most of the hobbies I liked to do like bicycling, hiking, etc.

I've now been practicing law for around 3 years and the work/life balance is just absolutely brutal. I work at least 6 days a week around 10-12 hours a day. Even when I'm "off" I'm still connected. And again, looking at the signs, it is taking its toll. I have gained a scary amount of weight, rarely see friends or have any social life and almost never do any of the activities I used to enjoy. For me, I fully intend on seeking an exit soon. I am making great money but it's not worth the tradeoff. I will take a smaller income for a little bit better work/life balance.

Appreciate the response. It's been ugly for me since I last posted this. A lot of stops and starts. This is actually my work break now. Back to work in another few minutes. Everything is obviously on hold until the COVID-19 quarantine is over. Working from home. As long as I can make it through this isolation period I'm happy.

Losing my closest friend was also losing my closest ally but that's a story for another day.

The main point is the writing is on the wall for me to move on in all aspects of my life. A lot of signs the last few months that this is too much, it's not being appreciated, and overall I've emotionally outgrown this market and the NY way of life, and the NY way of life wants a divorce from me.

I'm not happy anymore playing the same role and doing the same shtick and it's time to rebuild, re-brand, and lay down my own roots somewhere else.

That is what I would like to do when regular life resumes in the next 3-6 months (hopefully).

 

[Chaels Arms]

Appreciate the response. It's been ugly for me since I last posted this. A lot of stops and starts. This is actually my work break now. Back to work in another few minutes. Everything is obviously on hold until the COVID-19 quarantine is over. Working from home. As long as I can make it through this isolation period I'm happy.

Losing my closest friend was also losing my closest ally but that's a story for another day.

The main point is the writing is on the wall for me to move on in all aspects of my life. A lot of signs the last few months that this is too much, it's not being appreciated, and overall I've emotionally outgrown this market and the NY way of life, and the NY way of life wants a divorce from me.

I'm not happy anymore playing the same role and doing the same shtick and it's time to rebuild, re-brand, and lay down my own roots somewhere else.

That is what I would like to do when regular life resumes in the next 3-6 months (hopefully).

I will say this in terms of the NY life (which I absolutely despise so I know how you feel). You would be amazed at how different things are even just a few miles outside the city. In my career, doing work up in Putnam or Dutchess counties is like being in another universe and I've often thought about trying to switch to a practice up there. A lot of people in those areas are former citiots like us who just got sick of it and made a change.

 

[Roo Returns]

I will say this in terms of the NY life (which I absolutely despise so I know how you feel). You would be amazed at how different things are even just a few miles outside the city. In my career, doing work up in Putnam or Dutchess counties is like being in another universe and I've often thought about trying to switch to a practice up there. A lot of people in those areas are former citiots like us who just got sick of it and made a change.

That made me laugh out loud. I've worked in Westchester for quite a long time. It was fine but limiting.

I've lived in this region most of my life, would like to explore other places. Right now there is nothing to do except continue to work had, swallow another bitter pill and just turn the other cheek at work. It's tough when your working from home and not getting much help or support.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Dumb question, but in looking for jobs, and you come across the website of a company you want to work for, but there is no "Employment opportunities" page or something like that....what's the proper protocol here?

Is it too forward to find the HR email or something and make known your intentions?

Nope. Nothing wrong with that. I always appreciate it when people reach out to me directly (as an HR person).

 

[Irishguy42]

Nope. Nothing wrong with that. I always appreciate it when people reach out to me directly (as an HR person).

It's just feels extra weird because of the state of things right now with the quarantines, but yeah I kinda felt it's fine to just reach out.

 

[Gardner McKay]

It's just feels extra weird because of the state of things right now with the quarantines, but yeah I kinda felt it's fine to just reach out.

To be honest, most aren't doing at the moment so you really will stand out (in a good way IMO).