OT: Career advice Part II

SnowblindNYR

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300 is a lot, what industry? Do you have prior experience? It did take me probably around 100 to get my first job, but I'm so lucky I got that job and not the other previous ones, because it was at a company I was actually interested in. Probably it showed in the interview that I really cared and that's probably how I won them over in the end. Keep your head up man!

I'm looking corporate finance FP&A, I have two years of experience in it. I've interviewed with 11 companies, and had 2 more interview requests one where the recruiter disappeared and one that I lost in my inbox (was in promotions). My success rate in getting interviews is much better than it was. I'm better at interviewing than I was but still not great, I guess.
 
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Charlie Conway

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What would you say is a minimum to get started in a business or finance field? I have a B.A. and M.A. in unrelated fields (English).

Going to audit/take a few classes where I work for a better idea. I have no experience in the field, but it's something I've been studying on my own and have been enjoying.
 

CasusBelli

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What would you say is a minimum to get started in a business or finance field? I have a B.A. and M.A. in unrelated fields (English).

Going to audit/take a few classes where I work for a better idea. I have no experience in the field, but it's something I've been studying on my own and have been enjoying.
I got into IB with a BS in engineering (operations research specifically) from a target school. A degree in computer science, engineering or physics is far more valuable than a degree in finance in the finance world. A monkey can do a DCF; you need a bit more technical know-how to price a swaption using Monte Carlo simulation. This is especially true for trading, structuring and risk management, which for me are far more interesting than the other divisions.

If you want to go into M&A / advisory, however, choice of major is not as important as your GPA (>3.7) and your university — unless you’re connected. I would advise an economics major in this case; the STEM approach can make you seem “nerdy” which is a turn-off for these monkeys / bros.

Edit: I work in structuring and pricing at one of the largest renewable energy companies, focusing on electricity, natural gas and weather derivatives. I have also worked in credit risk, market risk (rates markets and delta-one products) and investment banking at some of the world’s largest banks.
 
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SnowblindNYR

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I got into IB with a BS in engineering (operations research specifically) from a target school. A degree in computer science, engineering or physics is far more valuable than a degree in finance in the finance world. A monkey can do a DCF; you need a bit more technical know-how to price a swaption using Monte Carlo simulation. This is especially true for trading, structuring and risk management, which for me are far more interesting than the other divisions.

If you want to go into M&A / advisory, however, choice of major is not as important as your GPA (>3.7) and your university — unless you’re connected. I would advise an economics major in this case; the STEM approach can make you seem “nerdy” which is a turn-off for these monkeys / bros.

Also an MBA is an option though I would only recommend it for certain things.
 

SnowblindNYR

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Definitely for advisory or origination; irrelevant for the quantitative side of the industry.

Yes, as far as finance goes I'd say IB, FP&A, treasury, and FLDPs are probably really the only finance that is relevant. I think IB is the best bang for your buck and has more career switchers than FP&A and the like.
 
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CasusBelli

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Yes, as far as finance goes I'd say IB, FP&A, treasury, and FLDPs are probably really the only finance that is relevant. I think IB is the best bang for your bank and has more career switchers than FP&A and the like.
I have to respectfully disagree with you there. Once you start in IB or in wealth management,you’re stuck there. Trading has other career paths, namely risk, portfolio management and structuring — but the survival rate for traders is quite low — so for me that’s the most flexible area. But, if you (in the royal sense) do decide to go into trading, your math and stats abilities need to be rock solid. Fundamental analysis is the past; Citadel, Renaissance, Two Sigma, AQR and, really, the buy-side leaders nowadays are driven primarily by quantitative methodologies. It seems people have finally realized that there is no “skill” in picking stocks (their returns are modeled as random processes for a reason) — only in managing exposures and designing structures.

Edit: the most valuable courses you can take, if you’re interested in the quantitative route, are in computer science, optimization (especially linear and integer programming), probability (especially stochastic processes and simulation), econometrics and statistics, though I suspect there are now machine learning courses offered — in which case I would recommend ones that cover artificial neural networks, random forests and regression models (especially XGB). Operations research is the only discipline that covers all of the above — and is why I chose to major in it. Some schools offer financial engineering programs, which are the best choice for a career in finance, but you need to be absolutely sure that you want to go into finance — you’re giving up some skills in favor of specialized knowledge. That may work against you if you’re decide to ditch finance down the road.
 
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Charlie Conway

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Thank you for explaining all of this.

For what it's worth, I had a 4.0 all through my undergrad and Master's, but that was gen eds and my English major. My college math experience only goes as high as algebra and trig, but I had taken some calc in high school and did okay. It would take some doing, but I could probably pick it up again.

All CUNY here in NY, so not the most heralded of schools or anything.

I might be able to take classes free through my job. Mainly, they offer a B.S. in business with options to focus on different things via electives. Not sure if it's worth doing that first and then moving on to an M.S. in something related.

Also approaching 30, so I feel time's cracking on.
 
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CasusBelli

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Thank you for explaining all of this.

For what it's worth, I had a 4.0 all through my undergrad and Master's, but that was gen eds and my English major. My college math experience only goes as high as algebra and trig, but I had taken some calc in high school and did okay. It would take some doing, but I could probably pick it up again.

All CUNY here in NY, so not the most heralded of schools or anything.

I might be able to take classes free through my job. Mainly, they offer a B.S. in business with options to focus on different things via electives. Not sure if it's worth doing that first and then moving on to an M.S. in something related.

Also approaching 30, so I feel time's cracking on.
I know the feeling mate; I’m 32. A lot of traders have degrees from Baruch — but that’s usually more the old school guys. The new generation is mostly quanty. So the first question: in which side of finance do you see yourself?
 

Charlie Conway

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I know the feeling mate; I’m 32. A lot of traders have degrees from Baruch — but that’s usually more the old school guys. The new generation is mostly quanty. So the first question: in which side of finance do you see yourself?

I like the ideas of getting into risk management or portfolio structuring. I enjoy doing research and analyzing, but I can't see myself as a trader--I know I'd burn out on that pretty quickly.

Similarly, I don't have much of a technical background, so I'd need to take some classes to get that going. It sounds like computer science may be more along the lines of where my interests are.
 
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CasusBelli

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I like the ideas of getting into risk management or portfolio structuring. I enjoy doing research and analyzing, but I can't see myself as a trader--I know I'd burn out on that pretty quickly.

Similarly, I don't have much of a technical background, so I'd need to take some classes to get that going. It sounds like computer science may be more along the lines of where my interests are.
For risk management or structuring, statistics and probability are what you need, especially simulation, stochastic processes, time series analysis and inference. But you also need to know the applications. So this is what the course load would look like:

Financial theory:
  • Options and Futures
  • Risk management
  • Intro to financial engineering
  • Portfolio optimization / asset allocation
  • Intermediate class on the asset class of your choice
Core quantitative tools:
  • Intro Probability
  • Stochastic Processes
  • Simulation
  • Optimization
  • Linear programming
  • Integer programming
  • Statistical Inference
  • Econometrics
Math prerequisites:
  • Multivariate calculus (Calc 1-3)
  • Differential equations
Edit: feel free to message me if you’d like to discuss this more intimately; I’m always happy to assist as other posters would testify.
 
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SnowblindNYR

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I have to respectfully disagree with you there. Once you start in IB or in wealth management,you’re stuck there. Trading has other career paths, namely risk, portfolio management and structuring — but the survival rate for traders is quite low — so for me that’s the most flexible area. But, if you (in the royal sense) do decide to go into trading, your math and stats abilities need to be rock solid. Fundamental analysis is the past; Citadel, Renaissance, Two Sigma, AQR and, really, the buy-side leaders nowadays are driven primarily by quantitative methodologies. It seems people have finally realized that there is no “skill” in picking stocks (their returns are modeled as random processes for a reason) — only in managing exposures and designing structures.

Edit: the most valuable courses you can take, if you’re interested in the quantitative route, are in computer science, optimization (especially linear and integer programming), probability (especially stochastic processes and simulation), econometrics and statistics, though I suspect there are now machine learning courses offered — in which case I would recommend ones that cover artificial neural networks, random forests and regression models (especially XGB). Operations research is the only discipline that covers all of the above — and is why I chose to major in it. Some schools offer financial engineering programs, which are the best choice for a career in finance, but you need to be absolutely sure that you want to go into finance — you’re giving up some skills in favor of specialized knowledge. That may work against you if you’re decide to ditch finance down the road.

Doesn't IB have exit ops to Hedge Funds and PE?
 

SnowblindNYR

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I have to respectfully disagree with you there. Once you start in IB or in wealth management,you’re stuck there. Trading has other career paths, namely risk, portfolio management and structuring — but the survival rate for traders is quite low — so for me that’s the most flexible area. But, if you (in the royal sense) do decide to go into trading, your math and stats abilities need to be rock solid. Fundamental analysis is the past; Citadel, Renaissance, Two Sigma, AQR and, really, the buy-side leaders nowadays are driven primarily by quantitative methodologies. It seems people have finally realized that there is no “skill” in picking stocks (their returns are modeled as random processes for a reason) — only in managing exposures and designing structures.

Edit: the most valuable courses you can take, if you’re interested in the quantitative route, are in computer science, optimization (especially linear and integer programming), probability (especially stochastic processes and simulation), econometrics and statistics, though I suspect there are now machine learning courses offered — in which case I would recommend ones that cover artificial neural networks, random forests and regression models (especially XGB). Operations research is the only discipline that covers all of the above — and is why I chose to major in it. Some schools offer financial engineering programs, which are the best choice for a career in finance, but you need to be absolutely sure that you want to go into finance — you’re giving up some skills in favor of specialized knowledge. That may work against you if you’re decide to ditch finance down the road.

I'm MBA smart, in other words better at math and with numbers than the average person but a dummy compared to quants.
 
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SnowblindNYR

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I know the feeling mate; I’m 32. A lot of traders have degrees from Baruch — but that’s usually more the old school guys. The new generation is mostly quanty. So the first question: in which side of finance do you see yourself?

I'm a Baruch alum (BBA) and a Carnegie Mellon alum (MBA). When I was at Carnegie Mellon it was considered a fact that the computational finance folks (MSCF) were in the best program in the country but since then I've seen Baruch listed as the best quantitative program in the country.
 

SnowblindNYR

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If I get in, I can attend for free through my job (CUNY). Guess I'll be looking into that today.

How good are you at math? I find that financial engineering/computational finance is grueling and hard to get into. I definitely don't have the math skills for it. If you only go up to algebra and trig you might need to take classes in calculus separately to get into these programs. @CasusBelli is super helpful but I think he underestimates a) how difficult it is for an average person to get in and b) how difficult the program is, because it comes easier to him than other people. I'm good at math by most people's standards and I can't even touch that curriculum. If you're good at math by most people's standards but not a freak an MBA or some MS in finance might be a better bet.
 

CasusBelli

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How good are you at math? I find that financial engineering/computational finance is grueling and hard to get into. I definitely don't have the math skills for it. If you only go up to algebra and trig you might need to take classes in calculus separately to get into these programs. @CasusBelli is super helpful but I think he underestimates a) how difficult it is for an average person to get in and b) how difficult the program is, because it comes easier to him than other people. I'm good at math by most people's standards and I can't even touch that curriculum. If you're good at math by most people's standards but not a freak an MBA or some MS in finance might be a better bet.
Thank you for the kind words. :)
 

CasusBelli

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Haha, I almost felt like it was a criticism. But the way I'll put it is you're really good at something really difficult that you might be overlooking at how difficult it is for 99.9% of the population.
Oh ... I didn’t see it that way. I just saw a compliment on my quant skills lol. There are worse things to underestimate.
 
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SnowblindNYR

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Oh ... I didn’t see it that way. I just saw a compliment on my quant skills lol. There are worse things to underestimate.

Oh yeah, it was a compliment on your quant skills. Anyone that can do that work is great at math. I remember someone at MSCF at Carnegie Mellon having a serious case of imposter syndrome because of how smart everyone was in that program. I guarantee that he was better than 99% of people in math in the world.
 
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CasusBelli

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Oh yeah, it was a compliment on your quant skills. Anyone that can do that work is great at math. I remember someone at MSCF at Carnegie Mellon having a serious case of imposter syndrome because of how smart everyone was in that program. I guarantee that he was better than 99% of people in math in the world.
You always encounter those “freaks.” A guy in college did a combined BS-MS in financial engineering in four years and graduated with a 4.0. Became a trader at Citi and now is a real estate developer in Colorado — one of the biggest.
 

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