CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
- Feb 27, 2002
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Speculation: Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2021 "Season" Pt. 2
- Thread starter Calicaps
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Hivemind
We're Touched
One of the big issues with judging Kuznetsov's "compete level" from the couch is how easy he makes the game look. Like @kicksavedave said on the first page of this thread, fans tend to want every player to look like they're hustling like Jay Beagle out there. When they don't see that, they assume a player isn't trying their hardest, and they resent the player as a result. The issue arises when a player doesn't have to pump his legs and churn the same way to get around the ice quickly. When a player has what scouts describe as an "effortless stride" (which is usually viewed as a good thing), the fans may end up assuming a player isn't giving their full effort. This was one of the issues fans had with Mike Green, as well. Prior to his groin injuries, Green's skating stride was so fluid and effortless than fans just assumed he wasn't skating hard. The same happens to Kuznetsov at times. I remember Alan May raving on broadcasts about Kuzy's ability to accelerate without even having to lift his feet (similar to what figure skaters would refer to as a "swizzle" or a "two foot pull") during Kuzy's first couple years in the league. If you look at Kuzy's 4-on-4 goal in Game 4 against the Islanders from last year's playoffs, you can see a textbook example of this. He takes a grand total of one stride from the red line onwards, yet he blows by multiple Islanders with enough acceleration and power to corner around the D and drive the net. When a player makes things look easy, fans don't often see the things they expect a player whos working hard to be doing.
You also see something similar with general NHL fans and Ovechkin. So many hockey fans will claim Ovie "floats" and doesn't try, and I think it's because of how often Ovechkin is standing straight up, as opposed to being in an "athletic stance."
Using coaches opinions of players can provide some insight, but it's also not infallible. First off, always deferring to the coach would lead to a pretty boring discussion board, as there would be nothing really to discuss. But more importantly, coaches are humans too. They have their own motivations, their own disciplinary tactics, their own biases, and their own flaws. Sometimes coaches don't put players in a position to succeed (consciously or not). See the Jeff Skinner situation in Buffalo, for instance. Krueger is playing Skinner alongside grinders and checkers in a 4th line energy role, when that's not nor has it ever been Skinner's game. Skinner signed in Buffalo to play alongside Eichel and to score goals, and for the past decade Skinner has been one of the better goal scorers in the league. Krueger didn't put Skinner in a position to succeed, and it's not working as a result. Not that Skinner should have a blank check, but when you put a player in a position they will fail, you can't act surprised when they fail. A Canes fan had a great post about in this the relevant thread on the main boards.
You also see something similar with general NHL fans and Ovechkin. So many hockey fans will claim Ovie "floats" and doesn't try, and I think it's because of how often Ovechkin is standing straight up, as opposed to being in an "athletic stance."
Using coaches opinions of players can provide some insight, but it's also not infallible. First off, always deferring to the coach would lead to a pretty boring discussion board, as there would be nothing really to discuss. But more importantly, coaches are humans too. They have their own motivations, their own disciplinary tactics, their own biases, and their own flaws. Sometimes coaches don't put players in a position to succeed (consciously or not). See the Jeff Skinner situation in Buffalo, for instance. Krueger is playing Skinner alongside grinders and checkers in a 4th line energy role, when that's not nor has it ever been Skinner's game. Skinner signed in Buffalo to play alongside Eichel and to score goals, and for the past decade Skinner has been one of the better goal scorers in the league. Krueger didn't put Skinner in a position to succeed, and it's not working as a result. Not that Skinner should have a blank check, but when you put a player in a position they will fail, you can't act surprised when they fail. A Canes fan had a great post about in this the relevant thread on the main boards.
Melkor
Registered User
I've been watching Kuznetsov since 2009 and actually consider his skating his biggest strength, not minus. The issues people have with him absolutely not related to that. He's been skating like that when they won the cup, I don't remember anyone here bitching how he accelerates while not moving his feet. The guy was doing his actual job and nobody complained. Multi point games, timely goals, creative plays that actually worked. He was THE man when he wanted to be the man. My personal opinion he was the actual MVP of the playoffs considering his performances in the crucial games of most of the series.
But the guy sucks now. He's going through the motions, he doesn't contribute shit. I don't remember the last time he pulled something people saw and said yeah that's vintage Kuzy, that's the Kuzy everyone knows. I don't remember the last time he dominated the shift by using his skating to his strength and keeping the puck in offensive zone for prolonged periods of time. I don't see him playing as a 1st center everyone thought he was three years ago. People don't want to see him on the team with his current level of play and that screams a lot considering what he's done for the team in the past. To me he's a lost case judging by what he says to the russian media when they ask him why he's not among the best these days. The guy just says that he plays when he feels like it. To be the best is not his goal, he just either enjoys what he does or not. That's not the attitude of a pro, that's the attitude of a spoiled brat.
But the guy sucks now. He's going through the motions, he doesn't contribute shit. I don't remember the last time he pulled something people saw and said yeah that's vintage Kuzy, that's the Kuzy everyone knows. I don't remember the last time he dominated the shift by using his skating to his strength and keeping the puck in offensive zone for prolonged periods of time. I don't see him playing as a 1st center everyone thought he was three years ago. People don't want to see him on the team with his current level of play and that screams a lot considering what he's done for the team in the past. To me he's a lost case judging by what he says to the russian media when they ask him why he's not among the best these days. The guy just says that he plays when he feels like it. To be the best is not his goal, he just either enjoys what he does or not. That's not the attitude of a pro, that's the attitude of a spoiled brat.
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Even while we know Kuzy's stride is effortless his board work and other physical activities are much more visible. Including defensive abilities to run laps in defensive zone trying to get the puck from opponents.
So he has to deliver actual results. And we see less of those, including much less twister passes and other types of catchy things he used to do with some degree of effectiveness.
Kuzy could run his own line but Caps dont have enough wingers who can complement all centers they have. It's not only Kuzy.
So he has to deliver actual results. And we see less of those, including much less twister passes and other types of catchy things he used to do with some degree of effectiveness.
Kuzy could run his own line but Caps dont have enough wingers who can complement all centers they have. It's not only Kuzy.
twabby
Registered User
- Mar 9, 2010
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I guess I'm in the minority but I would rather a guy drive goal differential even if he didn't pick up points. Right now he seems to be doing that and even though he's not going to continue enjoying ~85% of the goal share, he is currently expected to have a 66% goal share.
Very anecdotally: just the past game the commentator (I forget if it was Pierre or Forslund) said that Kuznetsov made a great back-check. Maybe he's been doing this all season and it's just gone unnoticed? The data certainly indicates that he's had a dominant defensive season so far, even IMO when his context is taken into account. A goal saved is a goal earned, or something.
Very anecdotally: just the past game the commentator (I forget if it was Pierre or Forslund) said that Kuznetsov made a great back-check. Maybe he's been doing this all season and it's just gone unnoticed? The data certainly indicates that he's had a dominant defensive season so far, even IMO when his context is taken into account. A goal saved is a goal earned, or something.
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CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
- Feb 27, 2002
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His skating might indeed be his biggest strength....when someone has pressed the GO button, otherwise, yeah.....he’s going through the motions for sure.
Arguably as frustrating if not more than Semin because Kuzy is very likable.
We all wanted him to be the franchise centerpiece that transitioned us from the Ovy/Backy times, but Kuzy doesn’t look like he’s that man.
dying to know behind the scenes how much they are on him, have talked to him about this, etc....
Rayquaza64
McMichael>McDavid
uh oh. looks like tonight we have an echl center as the 1C. whatever shall we do
CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
- Feb 27, 2002
- 64,567
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THIS. Your ~$8 mil a year guy needs to produce HIMSELF......(impact plays in all zones).
We cannot be accepting of “oh when he’s on the ice, the tides kinda favor us”......
HE
MUST
PRODUCE (g+a=pts)
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Calicaps
NFA
Sure. If he's not gonna be getting points better he's not 100% a liability. But when you're talking about your 1B centerman/supposed future of the franchise, that's a damned low bar.
Corby78
65 - 10 - 20
If panik doesn’t have a good game with backy and TJ,.... well it won’t look good
My take on this re: Kuznetsov is that he is playing better based on the analytics so would assume the points will come.
give it 5 more games
give it 5 more games
CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
- Feb 27, 2002
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a timely backcheck is nice and all, and those things don’t go unnoticed by us fans Twabby, sorry, but those plays are expected by all....2nd, 3rd, 4th liners do that too very well.
Kuzy must produce with impact play in all zones. He must produce an effective enough personal effort to where he’s about a PPG player IMO. That should be the floor right now, and for the past 3 years IMO.
CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
- Feb 27, 2002
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I like him on the left better at least....Panik 1+1 incoming lol....
Sheary-Backy-Oshie looks better imho. Small guy hustles and actually scores near the net.
Another thought. Maybe they should form a line for Kuzy similar to Malkin's in Pens. Two hard working guys and one centerpiece (Kuzy). Atm Vrana isnt that one high motor hardworking guy, and there is no way Vrana traded in season. So they can find Vrana-Kuzy-? fails every time.
That Vrana isnt doing much without Kuzy too is a bit worrying, but at least he's scoring goals.
That Vrana isnt doing much without Kuzy too is a bit worrying, but at least he's scoring goals.
twabby
Registered User
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The Capitals are outscoring the opposition 5 to 1 when Vrana and Kuzy are on the ice together, and have 70% of the expected goals. They are working together and I think it's smart to keep them together on the same line.
Ovechkins Wodka
Registered User
twabby
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Points are fleeting. Secondary assists are essentially statistical noise, goal-scoring is subject to wild swings in variance.
Despite the fact that he's had a downtick in shooting luck over 9 games, he's still managed to help the team outscore the opposition by a large amount. I care about him helping the team win games more than his box score.
It's like intangibles in that way, so you can't have it both ways. I mean you can have it both ways, I guess, but it would lead to a logical contradiction and boy would your face be red if people found that out!
CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
- Feb 27, 2002
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You can talk until you’re blue in the face trying to dismiss assists, points, offensive production, whatever, but he’s failing by just treading water well.
I’m willing to “wait a few games” per Ridley, but at about the 20g played mark, he should be around 18-20pts. 5 in 9 so far...
I’m willing to “wait a few games” per Ridley, but at about the 20g played mark, he should be around 18-20pts. 5 in 9 so far...
twabby
Registered User
- Mar 9, 2010
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CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
- Feb 27, 2002
- 64,567
- 19,352
Calicaps
NFA
goal differential and expected points! we win the Heat Map Cup... who needs real live wins or standings points anyway?
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CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
- Feb 27, 2002
- 64,567
- 19,352
Sorry the snark is for the player....not you, but you assume a lot with me, so whatever.
so yeah...still not good enough....he needs to produce at a high level of offensive output at his price tag.
If you disagree and believe he’s delivering a $7.8 mil performance, we can disagree and you can go back to your island.
so yeah...still not good enough....he needs to produce at a high level of offensive output at his price tag.
If you disagree and believe he’s delivering a $7.8 mil performance, we can disagree and you can go back to your island.
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