Cap Circumventing Deals Revisited

obey86

Registered User
Jun 9, 2009
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Cap penalties stay with the team that signs the deal.

So if if we trade Franzen to nashville, and Franzen retires, we face the cap hit penalty-- which is every dollar saved on cap hits over the life of the contract.

In Z's case, that's $1.5 to $1,75 M a year for a lot of years.

Had you bothered to read the thread instead of calling OP smug and whatever flame that got modded out, you might have picked it up.

Lol, what? I think you're confusing me with someone else. The only other post I have made in the thread is this:

I guess i'm ignorant on this subject. What do you mean by "penalties"? Do you mean penalties from the league office for signing the deals (or something like that if that's even possible)? Or are you simply talking about the huge difference down the road between the players salary and the cap hit and how they hurts our salary cap space?

Is there a link to this? I didn't realize there were cap penalties put in place in the new CBA if players retire early even on under 35 contracts. If that is indeed what you are saying anyways.

And for the record I have read the thread. And until this post by you where you said this (we face the cap hit penalty-- which is every dollar saved on cap hits over the life of the contract.) not a single person explained what these "cap penalties" are or how they are determined... other than saying there would be cap penalties.....which is why I asked. Twice. Sheesh.
 
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InjuredChoker

Registered User
Dec 25, 2011
31,402
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LTIR or golf course
And for the record I have read the thread. And until this post by you not a single person explained what these "cap penalties" are or how they are determined... other than saying there would be cap penalties....which is why I was asking.

There's calculator on Capgeek. Just select Z from there and year you think he would retire and numbers are laid out.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
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Compliance buyouts are really the only way to get rid of the cap-circumventing contracts. From CapGeek:

NOTE: During the ordinary course buyout periods in June 2013 and June 2014, teams will be permitted two compliance buyouts. Compliance buyouts follow the same formula as ordinary-course buyouts but do not count against the cap.
The new CBA added this:

CAP ADVANTAGE RECAPTURE (Roberto Luongo Rule)
Teams receiving a “cap advantage” from long-term contracts — defined as seven years or more for contracts signed prior to the January 2013 CBA — will be penalized in the event the player retires or “defects” from the NHL before the contract expires. A team receives a “cap advantage” when the player’s actual salary exceeds his cap hit in a given year.
Following retirement/defection, the “advantage” will be “recaptured” and charged against the club’s cap in equal amounts each year until the contract expires. This penalty applies to any team that received a cap advantage from the contract — ie. a traded contract — except in the event that the trade occurred prior to the new CBA coming into place in January 2013.
Teams do not receive a credit for seasons with negative cap benefit (where cap hit exceeds salary), the league confirmed to CapGeek.com.
Please note, contracts that fall under the "over-35" rule do not qualify for cap benefit recapture, the NHL has confirmed.

With that said, the GM and players made a decision based on the CBA that was in effect at the time the deals were signed. We're now grandfathering in some penalties ~in case~ players actually avail themselves of the early retirement, which if I'm not mistaken doesn't punish the player in any way, just the team that gave out the contract. Furthermore, the application of recapture amounts to cap hits harms future players as whole because (a) buyout money counts against the players' share (and there is the Make Whole system to alleviate some of that); (b) counts against the cap hit meaning there is less money to be spent on other players. I suppose these contracts are somewhat rare and the cap may rise enough to not be a huge issue overall.


Nevertheless, I don't know that anyone is answering whether or not this process helped teams sufficiently to warrant the mortgaging of future cap space. I think the Hawks are one of the teams that is benefiting greatly from such a contract, and fortunately for them, they traded Campbell away in time to get some of that space back-- noting his deal was 8yrs but all the same per annum.
 

RedWingsNow*

Guest
Lol, what? I think you're confusing me with someone else. The only other post I have made in the thread is this:



And for the record I have read the thread. And until this post by you where you said this (we face the cap hit penalty-- which is every dollar saved on cap hits over the life of the contract.) not a single person explained what these "cap penalties" are or how they are determined... other than saying there would be cap penalties.....which is why I asked. Twice. Sheesh.

LOL
Sorry ObiWan, I thought I felt the dark forces.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
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϶(°o°)ϵ


I lost track of what you're trying to say. It doesn't make as much sense with Z because you can't re-sign your player if you buy him out. He is the captain.


If Franzen also retires, that's another $4 MM-ish in recapture penalties. It's not an insignificant amount of money.


Buy out neither player.

Buy out one.

Buy out both.


Top option affords the greatest risk, bottom option leaves a fairly big hole to fill.

Do you think these long term contracts were worth the bother looking back from today and this CBA?
 

Heaton

Moderator
Feb 13, 2004
22,548
925
Auburn Hills
I lost track of what you're trying to say. It doesn't make as much sense with Z because you can't re-sign your player if you buy him out. He is the captain.


If Franzen also retires, that's another $4 MM-ish in recapture penalties. It's not an insignificant amount of money.


Buy out neither player.

Buy out one.

Buy out both.


Top option affords the greatest risk, bottom option leaves a fairly big hole to fill.

Do you think these long term contracts were worth the bother looking back from today and this CBA?

Good lord can you imagine that scenario? We lose Rafalski, Stuart, Lidstrom in 2 years, then the year after we try to transition without them, then buyout out Z and Franzen. Then the next year we lose Datsyuk back to Russia.

I'll take the 'risk' and keep both of them.
 

RedWingsNow*

Guest
Good lord can you imagine that scenario? We lose Rafalski, Stuart, Lidstrom in 2 years, then the year after we try to transition without them, then buyout out Z and Franzen. Then the next year we lose Datsyuk back to Russia.

I'll take the 'risk' and keep both of them.

Nobody is talking about buying out Z.
'
 

RedWingsNow*

Guest
Yup.

You have me on ignore, RWN? :P (Blah, liked calling you CB better.)

Hah. Nope. I just missed what you were saying.

I included Z's numbers just as an illustration. You take the risk of penalty for Zetterberg.
The penalty associated with Franzen is smalller, but still substantial.
And the penalty associated with Kronwall is even smaller.

If you buy one out, it's Franzen.

I'd like Franzen to be our third line center next year. If he doesn't like it, too bad.
 

ginnungagap

Registered User
Apr 7, 2003
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Since you're dealing with guys a team has a strong relationship with and made a long-term commitment to (especially Detroit- where you're talking career Wings with little chance of getting traded) I think the part about the LTIR loophole is extremely relevant.

Two most likely scenarios- either they're still playing at a decent level, and the cap is elevated enough that the salary is no big deal or they spend significant amounts of time on LTIR (which probably won't be hard to justify at 38-40 y/o).
 

Big Poppa Puck

HF's Villain
Dec 8, 2009
20,562
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D-Boss' Dungeon
Can't, if we're going to buy-out Franzen it has to be this summer afaik.

You have this Summer and next:

Fugu posted the particulars a few posts up.

Compliance buyouts are really the only way to get rid of the cap-circumventing contracts. From CapGeek:

NOTE: During the ordinary course buyout periods in June 2013 and June 2014, teams will be permitted two compliance buyouts. Compliance buyouts follow the same formula as ordinary-course buyouts but do not count against the cap.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
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Kdb posted the actual MOU language on compliance buyouts:

Originally Posted by NHL/NHLPA CBA MOU
During the Ordinary Course “Buy-Out†periods following the 2012/13 season and 2013/14 season, in addition to any other Ordinary Course “Buy-Outs†a Club may elect to effectuate pursuant to Paragraph 13 of the SPC, Clubs may elect to terminate and “buy-out†the already existing SPCs of up to two (2) additional Players (in the aggregate over the two (2) years) on a Compliance basis (a “Compliance Buy-Outâ€).

Such Compliance Buy-Out(s) would be effectuated on the same terms as are set forth in Paragraph 13 of the SPC, except that the amounts paid under such “buy-out(s)†will not be charged against the Club’s Cap in any of the years in which the payments are made to the Player. Amounts paid under such Compliance Buy-Out(s) will, however, be counted against the Players’ Share during any League Year in which the “buy-out†payments are made. A Player that has been bought out under these Compliance Buy-Out provisions shall be prohibited from re-joining the Club that bought him out (via re-signing, Assignment, Waiver claim or otherwise) for the duration of the 2013/14 League Year (if the Player was bought out in 2013) and the 2014/15 League Year (if the Player was bought out in 2014).
I don't know if it was pointed out upthread, but players would have to be exposed to Waivers before they could be bought out.
 

Winger98

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
22,823
4,694
Cleveland
We should buyout Sammy this summer and Franzen next June.

I buy out sammy if we make another move to need his cap/roster space. I think it's possible we don't make any moves, and we count on Sammy for depth next year while dumping some kids in the lineup. As for waiting on Franzen, it's a good idea. It gives us a year to see what the revenue might do. Revenue spiked far faster under the last CBA than it seems the owners expected. It might grow at such a rate to make any cap penalties negligible in five years.
 

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