Cap Circumventing Deals Revisited

detredWINgs

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Jan 1, 2004
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What is the projected cap by 2018-2019? It may be a moot point. Besides, if necessary there will always be a bottom feeder needing to meet the cap floor.

The cap going up to a projected $80M by 2018-2019 from $64M now doesn't mean much when the cost to retain your best forwards correspondingly goes from $7M to $9M.
 

RedWingsNow*

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What is the projected cap by 2018-2019? It may be a moot point. Besides, if necessary there will always be a bottom feeder needing to meet the cap floor.

Cap penalties stay with the team who signed the contract.

So if you traded Franzen to Winnipeg and he retired two years early, the cap penalty goes back to Detroit.

I think a 5 percent cap increase bring the cap to about $80M at the time this begins to matter.

By itself, a $3M cap hit because of Franzen doesn't matter that much.

But if we also have a $4.5M penalty because of Z and a $1.5M because of Franzen, there may be an issue.

And I don't buy that LTIR is going to be a silver bullet. Especially for backdiving contracts.
 

Heaton

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Feb 13, 2004
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We'll see.

Yeah, but this is all worst case scenario, there's basically no gray area in the argument. I agree it is a concern, I just don't think that Holland and co. haven't thought about it and have a plan in place. I don't trust him nearly as much as I used to, but he's not an idiot, even though his value of players is really weird right now.
 

obey86

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Jun 9, 2009
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If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Come around 2018-19 or so, the Red Wings are going to have a season or two where they lose about $8 to $9M in cap room as penalties from the cap circumvention deals signed by Zetterberg, Franzen and, to a lesser extent, Kronwall.

Since cap penalties follow the team that signed the original deal, the only way out of it is if the players actually play the full term of their contract.

Back in 2009, Ken Holland was called a genius for his contracts to Zetterberg and Franzen.
The lower cap hits were supposed to help Holland attract more stars and keep more of their great players under contacts.

But the truth is, we haven't won a thing since then. We've not been able to keep our players. Nor have we been able to attract stars.

We've had extra cap hit for two straight years and nothing to spend it on.

And thanks to the CBA (The NHL warned GMs it was going to fix these contracts), the Wings will pay a hefty price for these deals at the end of the decade.:shakehead

I guess i'm ignorant on this subject. What do you mean by "penalties"? Do you mean penalties from the league office for signing the deals (or something like that if that's even possible)? Or are you simply talking about the huge difference down the road between the players salary and the cap hit and how they hurts our salary cap space?

Is there a link to this? I didn't realize there were cap penalties put in place in the new CBA if players retire early even on under 35 contracts. If that is indeed what you are saying anyways.
 

RedWingsNow*

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Yeah, but this is all worst case scenario, there's basically no gray area in the argument. I agree it is a concern, I just don't think that Holland and co. haven't thought about it and have a plan in place. I don't trust him nearly as much as I used to, but he's not an idiot, even though his value of players is really weird right now.

These decisions were made before there were cap penalties.

I'm sure Holland has thought about it.

But what options are there?

Buyouts might be best, long term. But that's a lot of money up front to payout. And then if you buy out Franzen, you pay for someone to replace him too.

So who knows? There are other factors to consider
 

sarcastro

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They'll either play for cheap or they'll get LTIR'd with chronic eyelid fatigue or something. Not an issue.
 

Winger98

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I think all of them will play out their deals, unless sidelines with legit injuries.And if they're injured, I don't think any of them will put a knife in the Wings back and retire rather than sit on LTIR. They might not be worth their cap hits at the end of their deals, but we could have been fairly certain of that when they signed.
 

RedWingsNow*

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I think all of them will play out their deals, unless sidelines with legit injuries.And if they're injured, I don't think any of them will put a knife in the Wings back and retire rather than sit on LTIR. They might not be worth their cap hits at the end of their deals, but we could have been fairly certain of that when they signed.

Put a knife in the Wings back?

Dude, the Wings never expected them to play the whole contract.
 

Winger98

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Put a knife in the Wings back?

Dude, the Wings never expected them to play the whole contract.

Because having players who are 38-40 yrs old is a rarity on the wings? I think they knew/know the possibility is there that these guys won't play out their contracts, but I don't think it is something they banked on.

And, yeah, I think it's kind of low if a player has a choice of going on LTIR or retiring and sticking his team with a cap penalty - especially players in the position of Z or Franzen who benefited from the organization being willing to invest a lot up front. Maybe there would be mitigating circumstances forcing these guys into retirement rather than LTIR, but all things being equal, take whatever route is best for the org at that point.
 

RedWingsNow*

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Because having players who are 38-40 yrs old is a rarity on the wings? I think they knew/know the possibility is there that these guys won't play out their contracts, but I don't think it is something they banked on.

And, yeah, I think it's kind of low if a player has a choice of going on LTIR or retiring and sticking his team with a cap penalty - especially players in the position of Z or Franzen who benefited from the organization being willing to invest a lot up front. Maybe there would be mitigating circumstances forcing these guys into retirement rather than LTIR, but all things being equal, take whatever route is best for the org at that point.

If the Wings expected them to play, the roll back wouldn't have been so dramatic.

You're battered and brused and your knees and back and shot...You've got $50M in the bank. And you're going to come back and risk your health for $1M?

Maybe if you're Alfredsson and you've never won a cup and this is your chance
 

Winger98

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If the Wings expected them to play, the roll back wouldn't have been so dramatic.

You're battered and bruised and your knees and back and shot...You've got $50M in the bank. And you're going to come back and risk your health for $1M?

Maybe if you're Alfredsson and you've never won a cup and this is your chance

How old was Draper when he quit? Maltby? Homer turned 40 this year, and he was abused more than anyone. Yzerman played despite his knee. Chelios played until he got his AARP card. Larionov wasn't young when he retired. Macoun played until he was 38. Rouse was 36.

If they have a spot on the team, I think they show up to play if they are physically able to. Maybe something gets to the point where they can't, such as what happened to Rafalski, but I still think they'll hit LTIR at that point rather than retire.
 

r7carlson24

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Mar 15, 2013
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I may have missed it in some of the previous posts, but with the new CBA does it no longer matter if they signed the contract before they turned 35? I know since Rafalski signed his before he turned 35 his cap hit was no longer on the books when he retired. Is that no longer the case?

I also think they should be allowed to re-negotiate a handful of contracts. You can either use the compliance buyouts or re-negotiate. Obviously that won't happen since they CBA is already in place.
 

Crymson

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May 23, 2010
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OP, smugness and all, has apparently forgotten what a buyout is. It will cost vastly less cap space for the Wings to buy out the remaining years of Franzen's and Zetterberg's contracts before they retire, should either of them decide to do so.


[mod]
 
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DarkReign

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Jan 30, 2008
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OP, smugness and all, has apparently forgotten what a buyout is. It will cost vastly less cap space for the Wings to buy out the remaining years of Franzen's and Zetterberg's contracts before they retire, should either of them decide to do so.


[mod]

Does the buyout penalty still apply under the new CBA that specifically targets these types of deals?

Side note: Hockey and hockey people have the worst chose of words in the world of sports. Spin-o-rama, everyone's nickname ending with -s (Jones-y, Clear-s, Ab-s). Completely uncreative.

But the worst offender, the phrase that grates my ears when I heard it spoken or read it written, is "back-diving deals".

Ugh...Seriously? Back-diving? ***** does that mean? Hockey people, seriously.
 

pavel13

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I have no idea if the new CBA addresses this at all, but Scott Niedermeyer "failed to report" to the Ducks for the first bit of the season. The Ducks suspended him, and his salary didn't count against the cap. Then he retired in mid-season, if I recall correctly. At the time, people thought it was a way to circumvent the salary cap. Maybe Z and Franzen could just pull a Niedermeyer.
 

me2

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Jun 28, 2002
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You can trade them to a cap floor team and have them buy them out.Zetterberg's 2 years x $1m/y salary bought out is going to cost that low cap/cap floor team just $333K per for 4 years, for which they gain a substantial $5.4m, $5.4m, 333K and 333K cap hits which they can use to get over the floor. In return give then a pick and eat a bad $2m contract and they come out better off financially and with a pick. You could even do a sign and trade paying the signing bonus for them. Plenty of ways to work the system.
 

Henkka

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Jan 31, 2004
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You can trade them to a cap floor team

I just think Zetterberg will never be traded. He is the Captain, face of the Franchise for next kid generation and will finish his contract at Detroit. Period.

But Franzen becomes an interesting piece for some cap floor team. Somebody could buy those cheap years and get a higher caphit to catch the floor. No matter what how he plays or sucks, tanking teams should love him. :) Just like NY Islanders is doing all the time (traded for Thomas, and how Niederreiter's signing bonuses were used). Either has no NTC, Holland was enough clever to leave them away of these contracts.
 

Epsilon

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Oct 26, 2002
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Does the buyout penalty still apply under the new CBA that specifically targets these types of deals?

Side note: Hockey and hockey people have the worst chose of words in the world of sports. Spin-o-rama, everyone's nickname ending with -s (Jones-y, Clear-s, Ab-s). Completely uncreative.

But the worst offender, the phrase that grates my ears when I heard it spoken or read it written, is "back-diving deals".

Ugh...Seriously? Back-diving? ***** does that mean? Hockey people, seriously.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way. It's an utterly meaningless term.

Why are people worried about what's going to happen in 6 years?
 

RedWingsNow*

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So, even if Z retires his entire cap hit stays on the books till the end of the contract?

Cap penalties stay with the team that signs the deal.

So if if we trade Franzen to nashville, and Franzen retires, we face the cap hit penalty-- which is every dollar saved on cap hits over the life of the contract.

In Z's case, that's $1.5 to $1,75 M a year for a lot of years.

Had you bothered to read the thread instead of calling OP smug and whatever flame that got modded out, you might have picked it up.
 

InjuredChoker

Registered User
Dec 25, 2011
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LTIR or golf course
Cap penalties stay with the team that signs the deal.

So if if we trade Franzen to nashville, and Franzen retires, we face the cap hit penalty-- which is every dollar saved on cap hits over the life of the contract.

In Z's case, that's $1.5 to $1,75 M a year for a lot of years.

Had you bothered to read the thread instead of calling OP smug and whatever flame that got modded out, you might have picked it up.

Some goes to the team he is traded. How much, that depends when he's traded.

Source and reading on 'Roberto Luongo rule'.
 

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