y2kcanucks
Le Sex God
I believe it's fair to judge him as a defenseman based on the 600+ games he's played.
Player Discussion Canucks sign D Tyler Myers to 5-Year, $30m Deal ($6m AAV) | Part 2
- Thread starter Bleach Clean
- Start date
I believe it's fair to judge him as a defenseman based on the 600+ games he's played.
GetFocht
Indestructible
- Jun 11, 2013
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Don't bring that logic here, it's more important to be biased with my opinion so I can prove all you anons right and feel validated.
Among older player sure you have some guys that get rejuvenated or something. But it's not countless players. It's some players. Now balance that against the actual countless numbers of players that remain on the exact same trajectories.
Now of course one waits to see if Myers joins the group of unicorns or if he's the same old horse he always was. Time will tell that. But that doesn't mean one can't make predictions based on available data and dislike the signing based on that data. Or that they can't use aspects of his play so far in the pre-season as confirmation of the strengths and flaws to his game. He was awful last night. Like really bad. And pre-season or not you really don't want to see that at any time of year.
If we can't discuss based on available data then every thread that got started would end when someone posts "well we just have to wait and see". A discussion board then no longer exists.
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Numba9
Registered User
Do you think yesterday's game is the starting baseline? He's played two other preseason games, are those the outliers?
And what discussion is that? Seems pretty clear to me that many have already made up their minds. The games are just a formality at this point.
First I want to point there has been much discussion on Myers' strengths and weaknesses as a player and how he might contribute or harm the team. On whether his strengths will help the team move forward or fail to address what were the actual weaknesses. The discussion has most certainly been there.
Yes people have made up their minds that Myers is a bad signing based on the evidence of his 600+ games of experience thus far. That's what people do...judge and assess based on the evidence available.
Now if evidence comes to the forefront that changes that assessment it will be taken into account and opinions changed accordingly. That happens all the time.
And it goes the other way as well. Contracts that look good initially may not look so good as they play out and those opinions also change.
It's not some offensive thing for someone to "have their mind made up" based on what's available to them. The issue comes when one is not open to receiving new information and having their mind changed based on that info.
I can guarantee for the large majority of posters that is not the case. Yes we have our thoughts on Myers the player and the contract. Those of us who dislike one or both would love nothing more to be proven wrong because it means the pro scouting did a good job on this target. It means the team does better.
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Pip
Registered User
Seems completely reasonable to have made up your mind on Myers. If he performs better than he has in past years you can always adjust your opinion accordingly with the new information.
This is fair. Everyone has opinions. Best we all remember that’s what they are, opinions.
Would you consider his performance in the pre-season to be indicative of his future play one way or the other?
It’s totally fair to judge him as a player based on his 11 years in the league and multitude of times we’ve all seen him play.
Like, if we’d somehow signed Panarin, would you be calling out the people who were super happy about it and stoked after he dominated a preseason game and saying ‘Wait a minute guys! It’s total BS to judge him as good before he’s played a meaningful game in a Canuck uniform!’
Also, while some players do thrive in new situations, it’s generally guys who were put in bad positions in previous organizations who were then put in positions to succeed in new ones. Myers looks to be the reverse - coming from a top organization where he was getting sheltered minutes to hide his defensive warts to a bad one who wants to play him in the sort of tough defensive minutes where he was destroyed previously in Buffalo.
Bleach Clean
Registered User
- Aug 9, 2006
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There are opinions and opinions backed by evidence and fact. For Myers there are 600+ games of evidence and fact. There are trends in his game and there are also normal trends for player development and decline.
I think his 600+ NHL games are indicative of his future play. Or rather, unless he falls outside the norm of typical player improvement and decline his numbers/play will continue to track along that trajectory (which is not good). That's what people are saying. It is something special to have a guy at nearly 30 years of age all of sudden improve, and more importantly sustain that improved play.
Now outliers DO happen. And it often seems like it's "all the time" but it really isn't. The normal trajectory is normal for a reason as most players are in and around that mean. There are few significant deviations. It just so happens that the hoard of players that follow the norm fall under the radar precisely because they are following the norm. We only consciously see the outliers (good and bad) as they are obvious and we have to force ourselves to see the norm/entire-data-set to put those outliers into a frequency context.
Further to his pre-season performance: It certainly isn't going to overwhelm the data from the previous 600+ games. No one is saying that it does. What his pre-season performance shows is that you are seeing the strengths and weaknesses that he has in his game already. That shouldn't be surprising.
He made a nice pass to Benn last night. Timing was lucky but it was heads up and well executed. That is something we know he does well. Give him time and he can make a nice pass and carry the puck up ice. On the flip side was poor play against the rush, questionable pivots, poor down low coverage and bad decision making under pressure. Last night the latter overwhelmed the former. Based on statistical breakdowns that have been presented on this board and numerous articles the bad has outweighed the good the last several seasons for Myers. And the bad:good ratio hasn't been getting better. If the normal trajectory is followed, the ratio will continue to worsen.
edit: my argument is the biggest issue with the team was the play against the rush and defensive zone coverage. And that this is the issue that needs to be addressed through a complete re-vamp of the bottom 6 and blueline. To me that hasn't happened and as such while they may have gains offensively they aren't going to be significant enough to overcome the very poor defensive play. Especially if Markstrom is not a top 5 5-on-5 goaltender like he was last year. It's great Myers is better at breaking the puck out compared to Gudbranson when he has time for example. It'll help. But it won't become a significant improvement if they fail to actually get control of the puck first.
Note there have also been articles that Edler's resurgence last year wasn't actually a resurgence in anything but points. His defensive play continued to decline...I haven't dug much into that myself. And I'm not a hockey stats guy because quite frankly I run and look at enough SPC and SQC data on a daily basis at work that I don't want to run stats in my off hours! I'll let others do it. -end edit
As another example I'll use the acquisitions of players other teams have given up on.Several of us were very down on acquisitions like Vey and Pouliot. It was always possible they were going to be outliers, but, in general, when teams give up on young players it's because the young players are worth giving up on (there is a reason many discussions lately are looking at progressions the first 12-24 months after a draft or after turning pro in some cases). So unless there is some different information that would point towards them not trending with the norm the opinions are going to be what they were.
Baertschi was a bit of a different situation. There you had a guy that was a high pick that had a new president coming to town. The first thing that president does is essentially question the kids manhood and there was clearly an issue with the coach from the get go. That information gave some hope that he could in fact be an outlier...a kid a team gave up on when they shouldn't have. And I think you'll see the assessments from that trade were overall more hopeful and approving. Turns out Calgary may have been right (if for what might have been the wrong reasons) and Baertschi doesn't have what it takes to be a contributor on a good team.
edit: In short, these opinions in general aren't some agenda or even outlandish. They are based on following normal trends and trusting that if you make decisions in line with those trends, you will be correct more often than you are wrong. Not that we can't be wrong or want to be correct. It's also why many of us find Benning's decision making frustrating because it is very often completely against the norm...and he hasn't been right enough times to justify continuing to operate that way.
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So like, since the Canucks are (rightly or wrongly) in win now mode:
If Travis walks into Jim's office before the regular season opener and says "We have a problem. Myers is not one of our 6 best Dmen. I'm starting Biega." What happens? Can management be embarrassed like that?
Which opposing management commandment would Benning apologists go with?
1. Win games now
2. Myers is a Top 4 Dman
If Travis walks into Jim's office before the regular season opener and says "We have a problem. Myers is not one of our 6 best Dmen. I'm starting Biega." What happens? Can management be embarrassed like that?
Which opposing management commandment would Benning apologists go with?
1. Win games now
2. Myers is a Top 4 Dman
Well given Travis hasn't recognized Biega as being one of the 6 best D-men in any of the other years I don't see why that would happen now. And to be clear I don't think Biega should be anything more than a 7/8 on a team hoping to go places unless you are really loaded in the top 4 (i.e 4 23+ minute guys).
Like Gudbranson, Myers will have a lot of time to prove himself to be a good acquisition. Such a conversation if it were to happen isn't in the cards for at least another 18 months.
I am toxic
. . . even in small doses
xtra
Registered User
You mean he hasn’t been...his skating is just this bad...
Balls Mahoney
2015-2016 HF Premier League World Champion
Contrary to what most would expect from me, I'm still a fan of this signing. Finding top four defensemen in this league is next to impossible. You either draft them, you trade for them when they're young or you pay out the ass for them on the free agent market.
This team has had defensive issues for years and years. It has been a plague for this franchise that this team just doesn't have enough NHL caliber bodies year after year. While Myers is a one dimensional defenseman with some gaffs in his game, adding another competent veteran who can play 18-20 minutes a night is a positive. Myers is an offensive defenseman who has always had criticisms leveled against his physicality and defensive play. But at least the Canucks finally made the blueline a priority. Sure, they let the best and ironically cheapest option walk to the best team in the league in a stroke of pure genius. But I don't find Myers to be that much of a problem.
This team has had defensive issues for years and years. It has been a plague for this franchise that this team just doesn't have enough NHL caliber bodies year after year. While Myers is a one dimensional defenseman with some gaffs in his game, adding another competent veteran who can play 18-20 minutes a night is a positive. Myers is an offensive defenseman who has always had criticisms leveled against his physicality and defensive play. But at least the Canucks finally made the blueline a priority. Sure, they let the best and ironically cheapest option walk to the best team in the league in a stroke of pure genius. But I don't find Myers to be that much of a problem.
Yep, you said it best. It is next to impossible to find a top-four d-man. And you're not likely to get one via trade or UFA signing, but Jimbo keeps trying. The acquisition of Gudbranson cost the Canucks dearly. Supposedly he was a legitimate 'top four d-man' who made a 'great first pass'. By the time he left town, Green couldn't even play him regularly in the third pairing.
Maybe Myers will be different. But ask any Winnipeg Jets poster, and they'll all tell you the same thing. He wasn't a top-four guy in the 'Peg, and every time they tried to move him up because of injury, he basically faltered. So it's hard to be optimistic that 'pushing 30', Myers will suddenly become something he hasn't been for years.
But that's really the reason why so many of Jimbo's UFA signings turn sour. He acquires guys and overpays them for what 'he thinks they'll do" rather than 'what they've actually done".
But he wasn't "really bad" last night. For every defensive gaffe (and there were indeed several) he made a pretty good looking offensive play, at least IMHO. Clearly you are one of those who will pick on every mistake while ignoring his good plays. The good news is that you will probably have a lot to complain about; the bad news is that I'm betting he plays a bunch of games where you (and those of your ilk) will remain silent for fear of looking petty and foolish.
Ah yes the go-to Canuck fan excuse when a favoured player starts to play poorly. I promise I will not do this...
Myers was fighting it last night, no doubt. Sometimes when you make a glaring error early and it leads to a goal against it can put you on your back foot and your confidence in that game takes a hit. That's what it looked like. He looked more tentative with the puck than usual. Based on a bunch of other players gaffes you wonder about the ice in Abbotsford as well...
But on the flip side, Myers pressures all over the ice and it leads to a lot of rush chances for his team. He attacks the puck carrier, breaks up a lot of plays and gets the attack going when other dmen would be sitting back in a more defensive posture. When that style of player is on, they can cause havoc for the opposition. But when they are off, it looks really bad. Everyone seems to want to bring up Gudbranson when talking about Myers, but that comparison is a poor one. He's more like Kevin Bieksa. Can be great at times, or get running around out of position chasing the play and leave himself and his team exposed for glorious chances against.
High event player. And you need some of those players on your roster. When you're down multiple goals in a game, high event hockey is what you want. The Canucks now have more players that can step in and provide that, something they have lacked going back to 2012. Gives you a fighting chance to earn more points in comebacks.
But on the flip side, Myers pressures all over the ice and it leads to a lot of rush chances for his team. He attacks the puck carrier, breaks up a lot of plays and gets the attack going when other dmen would be sitting back in a more defensive posture. When that style of player is on, they can cause havoc for the opposition. But when they are off, it looks really bad. Everyone seems to want to bring up Gudbranson when talking about Myers, but that comparison is a poor one. He's more like Kevin Bieksa. Can be great at times, or get running around out of position chasing the play and leave himself and his team exposed for glorious chances against.
High event player. And you need some of those players on your roster. When you're down multiple goals in a game, high event hockey is what you want. The Canucks now have more players that can step in and provide that, something they have lacked going back to 2012. Gives you a fighting chance to earn more points in comebacks.
What if we put ourselves in less situations where we had to come back in games by being better defensively across the board?
sting101
Registered User
- Feb 8, 2012
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Not sure i understand how he was getting destroyed in Buffalo.
Outside of the 2 horror show seasons with Cody Hodgson and Tyler Ennis as their top players and back to back last place finishes by the Sabres who were disgustingly bad he was basically a neutral corsi player a plus 19 while being a good offensive defenseman and 51% OZ starts
Intangibos
High-End Intangibos
So after last night are we just not going to forget about making our defence tougher to play against and capable of protecting the kids?
If we were seeking to have an argument about Myers’ career, it is true that we haven’t seen his career as a Canuck yet. However, that isn’t either of the points being made.
1. The Canucks have been criticized for signing Myers to a $6 million x 5 year contract.
Any time a player is signed to a contract a judgment is made about the value of that player. In answer to your question, I think it is fair and reasonable to use a player’s 600 game NHL history, with emphasis on his recent history, as an important predictor of what he will be in the future. To do otherwise would lead to the absurdity that since what a player has shown himself to be can’t be used in determining his value, there is no way to judge a player’s value. The result of that would be that there can be no bad contracts until after the fact.
2. Some posters claim that the defence will improve considerably because of Myers’ signing.
They are making a prediction that Myers will improve the defence.
Yes, it is more than fair to use Myers’ past in predicting whether and to what extent he will improve the Canucks defence in the future.
To turn your argument around, if it is unfair to judge Myers as a Canuck before he’s played for them so that there is no basis for saying he won’t improve the defence, that leads to a corollary. Since we don’t know what he’ll be with the Canucks, there can be no basis for an opinion that he will improve the defence.
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