Player Discussion Canucks sign D Tyler Myers to 5-Year, $30m Deal ($6m AAV) | Part 2

[Bleach Clean]

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Previous Thread: Confirmed with Link: - Canucks sign D Tyler Myers to 5-Year, $30m Deal ($6m AAV)




Last few posts in previous thread:

There are also points in Myers performance where he has operated as a top pairing dman. Doesn't mean he's a top pairing guy.

If he's been given top 4 minutes his entire career, has posted counting stats of a clear cut top 4 dman, and would undoubtedly by a top 4 dman on the majority of teams in the NHL currently, isn't that a solid case for him being a top 4 dman?

It's more of a semantics argument than anything. If 2 people don't agree on what constitutes being considered a top 4 dman, they won't come to agreement on who ends up on that list. So until you clearly lay out the threshold one needs to hit to be considered such a player, you're likely going to continue spinning your wheels.

What is the benchmark for being a top 4 dman?

I'm excited to have Myers, he's going to help make our team better than it was.

Lots of debate about what he is, to me he's probably a #4D who can bring some extra offense. There's arguments he's been less at times, and arguments he's been fine as a top 4. At times in Winnipeg there was both from what I saw. As was the case in Buffalo before. I have that understanding going in, and I'll reserve further judgment beyond that & see how he fits in here.

I'm not expecting this contract to ever be a bargain, he's overpaid plain & simple, that is what it is (which is part of the nature of a rebuilding team) but he adds support our young core needs. Status-quo wasn't working, they needed to add a defenseman & after a Barrie trade couldn't be made the weren't an abundance of options that fit what we needed.

It's really quite unbelievable. Whether it's Hutton or Gaunce, or Richardson or Biega or Stanton or whatever, we have had some decent depth pieces that get treated like garbage, and the massive overpayments to replacement or near replacement level players like Sbisa, Guds, Eriksson, Myers Beagle, Sutter is truly brutal.

Click to read more...

 

[Bleach Clean]

Posting research graphs/charts here for reference:

Edit: Quote from @PuckMunchkin didn't come out right, so re-posting it here:

(And a few from me)

 

[y2kcanucks]

Myers is paid like a 1, but plays like a 5/6. This is another Eriksson-like contract. Pathetic.

 

[Dump Itch]

Myers is paid like a 1, but plays like a 5/6. This is another Eriksson-like contract. Pathetic.

Wait. #1 Defenders are paid 6mil a year? Please get me Karlsson, Doughty, Burns, Hedman, OEL, Subban for 36mil plz

 

[Bleach Clean]

Wait. #1 Defenders are paid 6mil a year? Please get me Karlsson, Doughty, Burns, Hedman, OEL, Subban for 36mil plz

A #1 Dman per the pay scale is one that makes the cut for the top31 defenders in the league. Since Myers is tied for 22nd for AAV for defenders, he is getting paid like a #1 Dman.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

Jeezus, T-Bone Myers is getting paid like a top 25 NHL defenceman. This is an insane contract even by Benning's standards. There are teams that do not have a single defenceman making what we're paying Myers who is a middle pairing guy almost anywhere and bottom pairing guy some places, like the team he came from.

I'll believe we can get Pettersson and Hughes signed when it happens but for now I'm in the doubtful camp. These lucrative bad contracts to middling players all seem to have three or more years left on them. Something will have to give eventually, but I don't expect it will be the immovable objects attached to these anchor contracts. But as always, Mr Aquilin's Top Men can go ahead and surprise me.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

"It's really quite unbelievable. Whether it's Hutton or Gaunce, or Richardson or Biega or Stanton or whatever, we have had some decent depth pieces that get treated like garbage, and the massive overpayments to replacement or near replacement level players like Sbisa, Guds, Eriksson, Myers Beagle, Sutter is truly brutal."...daddyohsix..

Myers is a replacement level player now?.....and Gaunce was mistreated....?

 

[F A N]

A #1 Dman per the pay scale is one that makes the cut for the top31 defenders in the league. Since Myers is tied for 22nd for AAV for defenders, he is getting paid like a #1 Dman.

Using your criteria, at one time, we paid Hamhuis, Bieksa, and Garrison like a #1 Dman.

 

[VC]

Don't like the Myers contract and would not of signed him to it.

Wouldn't percentage of cap at the time of the signing, combined rfa/ufa status come into play when saying he is paid like a #1 defensemen. Using strict cap hit as the measure seems too simplistic.

 

[lousy]

Wouldn't percentage of cap at the time of the signing, combined rfa/ufa status come into play when saying he is paid like a #1 defensemen. Using strict cap hit as the measure seems too simplistic.

Good points. I would also factor in when contracts were signed. Myers was just signed as an ufa, so his contract would be inflated compared to others who have yet to test the most recent market.

 

[EpochLink]

Gaunce was garbage, sorry but he brought nothing even at the bottom six

 

[I am toxic]

"It's really quite unbelievable. Whether it's Hutton or Gaunce, or Richardson or Biega or Stanton or whatever, we have had some decent depth pieces that get treated like garbage, and the massive overpayments to replacement or near replacement level players like Sbisa, Guds, Eriksson, Myers Beagle, Sutter is truly brutal."...daddyohsix..

Myers is a replacement level player now?.....and Gaunce was mistreated....?

"massive overpayments to replacement or near replacement level players"

And yeah, Gaunce was given heavy defensive lifting, performed stellar, and then the next season was effectively shunted aside by the likes of Schaller. Brutal. Just brutal.

 

[forty47seven]

Don't like the Myers contract and would not of signed him to it.

Wouldn't percentage of cap at the time of the signing, combined rfa/ufa status come into play when saying he is paid like a #1 defensemen. Using strict cap hit as the measure seems too simplistic.

His handedness plays a part as well. Something like 40% of all defenders are right handed while it's over 60% in the top 50 contracts.

His contract is bad but it has a lot more to do with term than AAV IMO.

 

[MS]

Using your criteria, at one time, we paid Hamhuis, Bieksa, and Garrison like a #1 Dman.

Uh, Hamhuis was a #1 defender.

Bieksa was a #2.

These were core players on elite teams. Hamhuis was a 2014 Olympian.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Those statistics are hideous. Never really liked this player, he sort of screams Brandon Sutter to me. Tall Alberta boy who has been vastly overrated by a wide variety of old-school GM's ever since he entered the league and is overpaid by around 2.5 to 3M per season. Will be hard to unload this contract, just as it has been impossible to get rid of Sutter, due to the fact his contract means he has negative value. My hope is that we can send a 2nd round pick to Seattle to take him off our hands in a few years, but a 2nd may not be enough.

I'm starting to loathe him before even watching him play a game in Canuck colours.

 

[4Twenty]

I'd love to see the work that shows that in 2014 that Bieksa, Hamhuis and Garrison were all top 30 paid defensman. I see F A N is making the case, but it's more lies.

And while the Canucks over the Gillis era tended to invest heavily in a quality defense corps, ZERO of the defensman referenced by F A N (Bieksa, Hamhuis, Garrison) were ever in the top 30 for AAV, top 40, sure...but they were all overwhelmingly top 2-3 defensman at the time.

I would take a 29 year old version of all those players over current Myers easily anyways.

 

[MS]

"massive overpayments to replacement or near replacement level players"

And yeah, Gaunce was given heavy defensive lifting, performed stellar, and then the next season was effectively shunted aside by the likes of Schaller. Brutal. Just brutal.

Like, we saw the level that Gaunce played at in 17-18.

Then we saw the level that Schaller played at in 18-19, which was far worse. For over double the cap hit.

How can people still not understand that if we'd played Gaunce and not signed an scrub like Schaller we'd have had a better team with an extra $1 million to spend?

Nobody ever said Gaunce was a HUGE deal. But it was an extremely frustrating one because it was so obvious that the cheap home-grown guy could do a decent job as a depth player, and instead we replaced him with Boston's scrub who was far worse for far more money.

 

[4Twenty]

Like, we saw the level that Gaunce played at in 17-18.

Then we saw the level that Schaller played at in 18-19, which was far worse. For over double the cap hit.

How can people still not understand that if we'd played Gaunce and not signed an scrub like Schaller we'd have had a better team with an extra $1 million to spend?

Nobody ever said Gaunce was a HUGE deal. But it was an extremely frustrating one because it was so obvious that the cheap home-grown guy could do a decent job as a depth player, and instead we replaced him with Boston's scrub who was far worse for far more money.

Yup. I liked Gaunce's utility and ability to saw off tough matchups, but it's not about Gaunce specifically, just as gripes in the past about small moves that got lots of discussion (Shinkaruk for Granlund) aren't specifically about the players in question, it's about the process, The roster utility, how it effects the rest of the lineup etc.

Paying a guy under a million to do similar work to guys being paid 2-3 million allows you to improve the more important parts of the roster (no POM, I don't think investing in a 4th line is ever wise). I don't really get why so many people have a hard time grasping something so simple.

Funny thing is I could easily see a world where the Bruins need Gaunce and his cheap utility on their 4th line this coming season, and he'd likely perform similarly to his last 40 games in Vancouver (which is comparable to the production Schaller put up in Boston) and then a bozo GM like Benning would be looking to sign him to double or triple the $$$ thereafter and all Gaunce's utility goes out the window (unless he magically becomes more productive).

 

[I am toxic]

Like, we saw the level that Gaunce played at in 17-18.

Then we saw the level that Schaller played at in 18-19, which was far worse. For over double the cap hit.

How can people still not understand that if we'd played Gaunce and not signed an scrub like Schaller we'd have had a better team with an extra $1 million to spend?

Nobody ever said Gaunce was a HUGE deal. But it was an extremely frustrating one because it was so obvious that the cheap home-grown guy could do a decent job as a depth player, and instead we replaced him with Boston's scrub who was far worse for far more money.

Exactly. And what kind of message does it send to your prospects and farm team players - be a good soldier, and get treated poorly? Absolutely brutal management.

 

[forty47seven]

I'd love to see the work that shows that in 2014 that Bieksa, Hamhuis and Garrison were all top 30 paid defensman. I see F A N is making the case, but it's more lies.

And while the Canucks over the Gillis era tended to invest heavily in a quality defense corps, ZERO of the defensman referenced by F A N (Bieksa, Hamhuis, Garrison) were ever in the top 30 for AAV, top 40, sure...but they were all overwhelmingly top 2-3 defensman at the time.

I would take a 29 year old version of all those players over current Myers easily anyways.

Well if we compare apples to apples, ie the year they signed their contracts, all were in the top 30.

Hamhuis 2010-11: 19th

Bieksa 2011-2012: 22nd

Garrison 2012-2013: 25th

I mean it's moot considering, as yourself and others have pointed out, Bieksa and Hamhuis were top pair guys. Garrison is decent comparable though.

 

[Jyrki21]

I'd love to see the work that shows that in 2014 that Bieksa, Hamhuis and Garrison were all top 30 paid defensman. I see F A N is making the case, but it's more lies.

And while the Canucks over the Gillis era tended to invest heavily in a quality defense corps, ZERO of the defensman referenced by F A N (Bieksa, Hamhuis, Garrison) were ever in the top 30 for AAV, top 40, sure...but they were all overwhelmingly top 2-3 defensman at the time.

For the record, on cap hit, Bieksa and Garrison were tied for 34th ($4.6 M), and Hamhuis was tied for 37th ($4.5 M).

I guess "2014" on this chart is as of the 2014 offseason?

 

[EpochLink]

"It's really quite unbelievable. Whether it's Hutton or Gaunce, or Richardson or Biega or Stanton or whatever, we have had some decent depth pieces that get treated like garbage, and the massive overpayments to replacement or near replacement level players like Sbisa, Guds, Eriksson, Myers Beagle, Sutter is truly brutal."...daddyohsix..

Myers is a replacement level player now?.....and Gaunce was mistreated....?

Smh I know, people here still praise Gaunce for some reason...this guy brought nothing.

 

[4Twenty]

Well if we compare apples to apples, ie the year they signed their contracts, all were in the top 30.

Hamhuis 2010-11: 19th

Bieksa 2011-2012: 22nd

Garrison 2012-2013: 25th

I mean it's moot considering, as yourself and others have pointed out, Bieksa and Hamhuis were top pair guys. Garrison is decent comparable though.

Where are you getting your information? I'm using this: NHL Rankings

Garrison never falls inside the top 30 in any season.

Not sure how Hamhuis @ $4.5 is 19th in 2010-11 either, but I do see that he and Bieksa were in the 20's in 2011-12 (when they were both #3's at worst).

Myers has never put up top pairing defensive metrics in his career....Garrison had done it over multiple seasons. I don't see the comparison.

Honestly he probably compares more favourably to a guy like Bieksa, and seeing where his game went from 29-35 is exactly why people think the Myers signing was unneccessary and is going to hurt the clubs future.

Smh I know, people here still praise Gaunce for some reason...this guy brought nothing.

You must be referring to my post. Did you read it? Here it is again:

"Yup. I liked Gaunce's utility and ability to saw off tough matchups, but it's not about Gaunce specifically, just as gripes in the past about small moves that got lots of discussion (Shinkaruk for Granlund) aren't specifically about the players in question, it's about the process, The roster utility, how it effects the rest of the lineup etc.

Paying a guy under a million to do similar work to guys being paid 2-3 million allows you to improve the more important parts of the roster (no POM, I don't think investing in a 4th line is ever wise). I don't really get why so many people have a hard time grasping something so simple".


How is this hard to comprehend? Jay Beagle scored 2 goals on a goalie last year for $3m..... he was absolutely eviscerated at 5 on 5....he provided nothing either and over 3x the salary....it's not about Gaunce, it's about cheap roster utility so the team can get better, but I guess if all that went over your head the countless times it's been posted before, it will in perpetuity.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

Knew that Gardiner contract was coming. 4.05mil x 4 . Makes this Myers deal look utterly stupid.

This is why you dont rush to sign players on July 1st.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Smh I know, people here still praise Gaunce for some reason...this guy brought nothing.

I looked on the Bruins forum for their fan reaction on acquiring Gaunce.,and I couldn't find anything....but yeah, he's going to be a star in the making on the Bruins 4th line ..good times.