Canucks Off-season Thread - Canucks re-sign Teves, Rafferty, Boucher

[krutovsdonut]

Pretty much this.

I was going to say the same thing to @krutovsdonut , but you said it much better and
More eloquently than me, myself, and I.

to me it is basic good management to maintain some cap space to give you flexibility to take advantage of an opportunity if it arises or to manage a problem when it comes. the benefit you get of adding one more player to bump right up against the cap does not outweigh this operational flexibility unless maybe you are a cup contender on final approach and even then i am skeptical.

 

[PetterssonSimp]

Looking at his stats, he had four assists in seven games? According to some heavy prospect watchers following the Baracudas on the SJ board, they seem to think his future might look to be a reliable 3rd line shutdown player with 10-15 goal potential. They don't consider him a dead or dying prospect, just one to perhaps damper expectations on. They do say to give him some more time with the tools and training available to him in the SJ system, to see how he does and trends next year with more time working in SJ's prospect development system. Dahlen's been resurrected from the clenches of a culture that consumed and smothered him in sickness and death. Might take him some time to recoup. They say his story isn't over... just his chapter as a Canucks prospect. We'll see.

Will you continue on this fight for the respect of Dahlen when he doesn’t return from Timra?

 

[Peter10]

to me it is basic good management to maintain some cap space to give you flexibility to take advantage of an opportunity if it arises or to manage a problem when it comes. the benefit you get of adding one more player to bump right up against the cap does not outweigh this operational flexibility unless maybe you are a cup contender on final approach and even then i am skeptical.

There are several factors playing into it. To use LTIR you have to be up to the cap, the closer you are to the cap, the more if the injured players salary you are able to get as a relief. However, if you are close to the cap it also means you ll have to defer rookie performance bonuses to the next season which is actually a thing the team should try to avoid in the current situation. With Benning being a lame duck though I dont think he spends much time worrying about 20-21.

 

[I in the Eye]

Will you continue on this fight for the respect of Dahlen when he doesn’t return from Timra?

I don't give a shit about Dahlen. San Jose fans seem pleased he is their prospect. They are not ready to give up on him. Some see him as a potential NHL player in some capacity. It's certain Vancouver fans who are trying to cut him down every chance they can get. That's not coming out of San Jose.

I was talking about the Canucks shitty culture of AHL prospect development... It was mentioned Dahlen sucks in San Jose's system, I replied San Jose fans seem pleased, it was mentioned he's going to Sweden, I reply now his agent denies it and says it's not true.

No, I won't continue the fight for Dahlen if he goes to Sweden. Don't give a damn about Dahlen. But your biases against him create natural replies that defend him. He's still considered a good prospect. San Jose fans like him as a prospect. Deal with it. I could easily post San Jose doesn't like him as a prospect, and it might make you feel better, but it wouldn't be true.

 

[DonnyNucker]

I don't give a **** about Dahlen. San Jose fans seem pleased he is their prospect. They are not ready to give up on him. Some see him as a potential NHL player in some capacity. It's certain Vancouver fans who are trying to cut him down every chance they can get. That's not coming out of San Jose.

I was talking about the Canucks ****ty culture of AHL prospect development... It was mentioned Dahlen sucks in San Jose's system, I replied San Jose fans seem pleased, it was mentioned he's going to Sweden, I reply now his agent denies it and says it's not true.

No, I won't continue the fight on Dahlen if he goes to Sweden. Don't give a damn about Dahlen. But your biases against him create natural replies that defend him. He's still a good prospect. San Jose fans like him as a prospect. Deal with it. I could easily post San Jose doesn't like him as a prospect, and it might make you feel better, but it wouldn't be true.

Fair points but when you mention that SJ fans see him as a defensive specialist you are going to draw some responses. Whoever these SJ fans are clearly don’t know jack about hockey. He has some skill but he would probably head back to Sweden for a few years imo

 

[I in the Eye]

Fair points but when you mention that SJ fans see him as a defensive specialist you are going to draw some responses. Whoever these SJ fans are clearly don’t know jack about hockey. He has some skill but he would probably head back to Sweden for a few years imo

Have at it... some dude named Josh Tessler considers Dahlen a stud of poke checks... Others comment that he's good at it.

6. Jonathan Dahlén, LW, Utica Comets (AHL) and San Jose Barracuda (AHL)

HT/WT: 5-11/183 lbs
Age: 21
Drafted: 42nd overall in the 2016 draft by the Ottawa Senators
Dahlén has been used as trade bait twice so far. He was traded by the Ottawa Senators to the Vancouver Canucks in the Alex Burrows swap. He was also dealt to the San Jose Sharks in February for Linus Karlsson. While Dahlén has danced around from organization to organization, he still is a blue-chip prospect.
Last season, Dahlén played in a combined 57 games with the Utica Comets and the Barracuda. He recorded 14 goals and 19 assists. Not too shabby. He doesn’t project to be a top line forward, so you shouldn’t be concerned about any offensive production issues.
In terms of Dahlén’s style of play, he loves to drive toward the net and enjoys going one on one with the opposing goaltender. He scores a fair amount of wrap around goals, loves setting up one-timers and is a stud of a poke checker.
2018-19 Top Ten San Jose Sharks Prospects - MyNHLTradeRumors.com

Go check on the San Jose board, search for "Dahlen", then tell them they don't know what they are talking about in still considering him a good prospect.

If I found out San Jose fans hated Dahlen, I would report that back instead... and concede that San Jose fans don't like him as a prospect.

 

[MS]

I don't give a **** about Dahlen. San Jose fans seem pleased he is their prospect. They are not ready to give up on him. Some see him as a potential NHL player in some capacity. It's certain Vancouver fans who are trying to cut him down every chance they can get. That's not coming out of San Jose.

I was talking about the Canucks ****ty culture of AHL prospect development... It was mentioned Dahlen sucks in San Jose's system, I replied San Jose fans seem pleased, it was mentioned he's going to Sweden, I reply now his agent denies it and says it's not true.

No, I won't continue the fight for Dahlen if he goes to Sweden. Don't give a damn about Dahlen. But your biases against him create natural replies that defend him. He's still a good prospect. San Jose fans like him as a prospect. Deal with it. I could easily post San Jose doesn't like him as a prospect, and it might make you feel better, but it wouldn't be true.

This is all well and good, but when you suggest that SJ fans see Dahlen as a 3rd line defensive specialist, it's going to get some responses.

I watched Dahlen play about 40 games last year. He was a slow, butter-soft, contact-allergic, complete defensive liability who was nearly unplayable at ES. He is literally the furthest thing I've ever seen from a prospect who projects as any sort of defensive player. He makes Goldobin look like Alex Burrows. Any SJ fan claiming something like this has clearly never, ever seen him play.

Dahlen is a PP specialist whose hands and ability to give/receive a pass are NHL-calibre and could probably play on most NHL PPs right now. Unfortunately literally everything else about his game is awful.

 

[I in the Eye]

This is all well and good, but when you suggest that SJ fans see Dahlen as a 3rd line defensive specialist, it's going to get some responses.

I watched Dahlen play about 40 games last year. He was a slow, butter-soft, contact-allergic, complete defensive liability who was nearly unplayable at ES. He is literally the furthest thing I've ever seen from a prospect who projects as any sort of defensive player. He makes Goldobin look like Alex Burrows. Any SJ fan claiming something like this has clearly never, ever seen him play.

Dahlen is a PP specialist whose hands and ability to give/receive a pass are NHL-calibre and could probably play on most NHL PPs right now. Unfortunately literally everything else about his game is awful.

Fair enough... I can link to the discussion on the San Jose board, and then Canucks fans can reply.

 

[PetterssonSimp]

Fair points but when you mention that SJ fans see him as a defensive specialist you are going to draw some responses. Whoever these SJ fans are clearly don’t know jack about hockey. He has some skill but he would probably head back to Sweden for a few years imo

The kid is the definition of Euro star but NA dud. I think we’ve all seen it over the years, player from euro league who dominates on large ice with time and space allotted to every player over there but can’t adjust to the lack of time and space over here.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

This is all well and good, but when you suggest that SJ fans see Dahlen as a 3rd line defensive specialist, it's going to get some responses.

I watched Dahlen play about 40 games last year. He was a slow, butter-soft, contact-allergic, complete defensive liability who was nearly unplayable at ES. He is literally the furthest thing I've ever seen from a prospect who projects as any sort of defensive player. He makes Goldobin look like Alex Burrows. Any SJ fan claiming something like this has clearly never, ever seen him play.

Dahlen is a PP specialist whose hands and ability to give/receive a pass are NHL-calibre and could probably play on most NHL PPs right now. Unfortunately literally everything else about his game is awful.

Is there something seriously f***ED UP with how Utica is being coached right now?

I some how have a hard time believing that all Palmu, Gadjovich, Lind and Dahlen are just uncoachable non-AHL talents who cannot be trusted a second of ice time or the game is over... Seriously? What the f*** is going on there?

Nobody goes there and gets better. Nobody goes there and has flaws in their game fixed.

 

[MS]

Is there something seriously ****ED UP with how Utica is being coached right now?

I some how have a hard time believing that all Palmu, Gadjovich, Lind and Dahlen are just uncoachable non-AHL talents who cannot be trusted a second of ice time or the game is over... Seriously? What the **** is going on there?

Nobody goes there and gets better. Nobody goes there and has flaws in their game fixed.

MacEwen has gone there and gotten far better. Sautner was a guy I thought was a terrible signing out of the WHL and he's gotten better. Lind did improve significantly over the season. Gaudette did great down there in limited time.

Palmu, Gadjovich, and Lind were just *horrible* out of the gate in Utica. All looked like they belonged in the ECHL and the coaches were actually doing them a favour by playing them as much as they were. Given just how bad they were, I don't think it was a coaching thing. Dahlen had skills that played well in the AHL on the PP but the flaws in his game elsewhere were brutal and again I don't know what the coaches could have done - apparently they tried to get him to compete harder and he didn't like it and pouted.

When a guy like Jordan Subban goes to the AHL and makes a big impact initially and then gets worse and doesn't develop then I look at coaching. But when guys just flat-out can't keep up I find it hard to blame the coach.

 

[krutovsdonut]

I don't give a **** about Dahlen. San Jose fans seem pleased he is their prospect. They are not ready to give up on him. Some see him as a potential NHL player in some capacity. It's certain Vancouver fans who are trying to cut him down every chance they can get. That's not coming out of San Jose.

I was talking about the Canucks ****ty culture of AHL prospect development... It was mentioned Dahlen sucks in San Jose's system, I replied San Jose fans seem pleased, it was mentioned he's going to Sweden, I reply now his agent denies it and says it's not true.

No, I won't continue the fight for Dahlen if he goes to Sweden. Don't give a damn about Dahlen. But your biases against him create natural replies that defend him. He's still considered a good prospect. San Jose fans like him as a prospect. Deal with it. I could easily post San Jose doesn't like him as a prospect, and it might make you feel better, but it wouldn't be true.

yes, let's stay on topic. nobody was discussing whether he was a good prospect or not.

this discussion started when you presented dahlen's negative statements as facts showing the canucks farm system sucks without any qualification at all that maybe dahlen may have his own issues. in other words, you put this situation unreservedly on utica not dahlen.

but if dahlen also floundered with the barracudas and now wants to go home then this would suggest the player has an issue with the ahl generally and maybe north american hockey.

so i presented you with an article and quote from the swedish media indicating exactly that. which you have ignored.

there is also the fact the sens moved him for what seemed like a really good deal for us at the time, the weird way he fled utica back to sweden his first year, and the way he went back to sweden right after joining the barracudas, after getting creamed, with concussion symptoms. that may well be true, but is also a very good way to explain going home to sweden if you are having a bad time playing north american hockey. either way, it is the ahl not utica that seems to cause dahlen issues.

so if you want to argue the ahl sucks for developing players, or both the barracudas and utica suck as teams for swedish imports, well ok. but dahlen's history with the barracudas or in general does not support your unqualified take that utica screwed up dahlen or all your ranting. the fact you argued it that way is just your bias showing.

 

[I in the Eye]

this discussion started when you presented dahlen's negative statements as facts showing the canucks farm system sucks without any qualification at all that maybe dahlen may have his own issues. in other words, you put this situation on utica not dahlen.

I said our culture of AHL prospect development sucks... You reply Dahlen still sucks in San Jose's.. I reply San Jose fans seem pleased with him... Get other replies that San Jose fans are nuts... Get replies that Dahlen is going to play in Sweden... I reply his agent denies it... And here we are.

 

[F A N]

Many prospects struggle to adjust to AHL play and have a relatively poor to pedestrian first season. Dahlen's struggles probably means he's never going to develop into a 1st line player. He can still get it together and develop into an NHL player but he's got a long road to go. The scouting report on him when he was still back in Sweden was that he wasn't afraid to go to the dirty areas of the ice. But those who have followed his play with the Comets have all said that he's soft. Dahlen is not the biggest guy and with increased strength and size one can get more confident (unlike a boxer feeling out his opponent's power).

Plenty of prospect who miss crucial development time struggle to reach their potentials and Dahlen may be one of them. Had he not contracted mono, he might have adjusted to the AHL better two seasons ago or at least play in the SHL which tend to be a right of passage for Swedish hockey players.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

MacEwen has gone there and gotten far better. Sautner was a guy I thought was a terrible signing out of the WHL and he's gotten better. Lind did improve significantly over the season. Gaudette did great down there in limited time.

Palmu, Gadjovich, and Lind were just *horrible* out of the gate in Utica. All looked like they belonged in the ECHL and the coaches were actually doing them a favour by playing them as much as they were. Given just how bad they were, I don't think it was a coaching thing. Dahlen had skills that played well in the AHL on the PP but the flaws in his game elsewhere were brutal and again I don't know what the coaches could have done - apparently they tried to get him to compete harder and he didn't like it and pouted.

When a guy like Jordan Subban goes to the AHL and makes a big impact initially and then gets worse and doesn't develop then I look at coaching. But when guys just flat-out can't keep up I find it hard to blame the coach.

So its just on the players to git gud or gtfo?

 

[krutovsdonut]

I said our culture of AHL prospect development sucks... You reply Dahlen still sucks in San Jose's.. I reply San Jose fans seem pleased with him... Get other replies that San Jose fans are nuts... Get replies that Dahlen is going to play in Sweden... I reply his agent denies it... And here we are.

no, i replied that dahlen was still having the same issues with the barracudas.

what does san jose fans being optimistic about dahlen have to do with this discussion? i mean i am also optimistic the guy eventually sorts it out, but that doesn't mean i blame utica for his issues.

 

[MS]

So its just on the players to git gud or gtfo?

I did list some guys who improved - I have no idea what impact the coaching had although MacEwen was complementary when asked.

When players are just unplayably bad, I really don't know what the coaches are supposed to do. You can't turn a turd into a diamond. Lind did get significantly better in the 2nd half and was an adequate 3rd line type. Gadjovich was a bit better. Both have massive skating issues and to me it's pretty obvious that that was a far bigger reason for their failures than any coaching problem. You could see this coming with Gadjovich when he was so bad at the WJC when the pace ticked up.

 

[PetterssonSimp]

Is there something seriously ****ED UP with how Utica is being coached right now?

I some how have a hard time believing that all Palmu, Gadjovich, Lind and Dahlen are just uncoachable non-AHL talents who cannot be trusted a second of ice time or the game is over... Seriously? What the **** is going on there?

Nobody goes there and gets better. Nobody goes there and has flaws in their game fixed.

We just ignoring Jakob Markstrom was a fringe NHL back up then spent a year there and is now the Canucks starter?
I’m not a fan of his, but Thatcher Demko went to Utica and has transitioned to Canucks backup goalie?
Jake Virtanen bordered on complete waste of time prospect to reasonable depth NHL player. Which is an honest to god improvement to what he was trending too before his stint there.


What I think was the problem, Gadjovich isn’t touted as a super strong skater, he probably had a tough time keeping up with the pace of true professionals. His game got better later on in more specific role I remember reading.
Lind even admitted he just wasn’t up to snuff personally to the pace and strength of the league, his play improved throughout the season.
Palmu is even more Dahlen than Dahlen though, at 5’6 he was always gonna be a huge long shot to even make it in NA, let alone NHL hockey.

All of this just continues to reaffirm that the Canucks have not done enough stockpiling draft picks to turn into young players you choose for yourself or just young players overall. Us as fans spend oodles more time than the average fans of other teams in similar positions for the simple fact we have less so spend more time talking about them, whereas teams with oodles of young bodies in the system will spend less time on a single prospect. In the Canucks system of prospects, we are all sitting here NEEDING them to turn out to the best of their potential for the simple fact they are all we got. Whereas a team like Toronto, who did nothing but stockpile are bursting at the seams with young bodies to the point where they can’t keep them all, and usually have the Leivo’s of the world being dumped for Michael Carcone’s

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I did list some guys who improved - I have no idea what impact the coaching had although MacEwen was complementary when asked.

When players are just unplayably bad, I really don't know what the coaches are supposed to do. You can't turn a turd into a diamond. Lind did get significantly better in the 2nd half and was an adequate 3rd line type. Gadjovich was a bit better. Both have massive skating issues and to me it's pretty obvious that that was a far bigger reason for their failures than any coaching problem. You could see this coming with Gadjovich when he was so bad at the WJC when the pace ticked up.

I still dont understand...

Palmu is a capable top 6er in a tougher league...

How do they develop if they dont play ice hockey games?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

We just ignoring Jakob Markstrom was a fringe NHL back up then spent a year there and is now the Canucks starter?
I’m not a fan of his, but Thatcher Demko went to Utica and has transitioned to Canucks backup goalie?
Jake Virtanen bordered on complete waste of time prospect to reasonable depth NHL player. Which is an honest to god improvement to what he was trending too before his stint there.

I'll give you the first two. Utica is doing something for goalies.

JV ... Okay. I guess he lost the excess weight there and is now giving more effort.

What I think was the problem, Gadjovich isn’t touted as a super strong skater, he probably had a tough time keeping up with the pace of true professionals. His game got better later on in more specific role I remember reading.
Lind even admitted he just wasn’t up to snuff personally to the pace and strength of the league, his play improved throughout the season.
Palmu is even more Dahlen than Dahlen though, at 5’6 he was always gonna be a huge long shot to even make it in NA, let alone NHL hockey.

Palmu is doing fine in a stronger league where clutching and grabbing is allowed (Im assuming AHL mirrors NHL more closely in this regard?)

All of this just continues to reaffirm that the Canucks have not done enough stockpiling draft picks to turn into young players you choose for yourself or just young players overall. Us as fans spend oodles more time than the average fans of other teams in similar positions for the simple fact we have less so spend more time talking about them, whereas teams with oodles of young bodies in the system will spend less time on a single prospect. In the Canucks system of prospects, we are all sitting here NEEDING them to turn out to the best of their potential for the simple fact they are all we got. Whereas a team like Toronto, who did nothing but stockpile are bursting at the seams with young bodies to the point where they can’t keep them all, and usually have the Leivo’s of the world being dumped for Michael Carcone’s

I agree with this to a certain extent but I would like to have a farm team where you can send players to actually play, learn from mistakes and get better. Utica, at the moment, does not develop NHL skaters. (I give you that they definitely do develop NHL goalies.)

 

[I in the Eye]

no, i replied that dahlen was still having the same issues with the barracudas.

what does san jose fans being optimistic about dahlen have to do with this discussion? i mean i am also optimistic the guy eventually sorts it out, but that doesn't mean i blame utica for his issues.

Prove he's still having the same issues with the barracudas. I attempted to find commentary on his continued struggles with the same issues, and found nothing. All I found is that he suffered a concussion, and fans were pleased with him. No mention of the weaknesses that plagued him here.

Just give me something other than you saying so. Completely willing to concede that the issues he had here continued in San Jose's system. But why should I just take this as fact because you say so?

 

[FroshaugFan2]

I still dont understand...

Palmu is a capable top 6er in a tougher league...

How do they develop if they dont play ice hockey games?

The AHL is a much tougher league that the Liiga. I think your issue is under rating the AHL.

Just one example from the same team, but Palmu is about as good as Zach Budish in the Liiga. Like Palmu, Budish could never make it as an AHL regular.

 

[MS]

I still dont understand...

Palmu is a capable top 6er in a tougher league...

How do they develop if they dont play ice hockey games?

The AHL is a better league than the Liiga.

Palmu is the only one who didn't play games. The others basically all played, terribly, when they could have been upgraded on in the short term by veteran PTOs.

Palmu looked really bad. I don't know what else to say. His skating didn't cut it at this level and he couldn't receive a pass without it jumping 3 feet off his stick.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

The AHL is a better league than the Liiga.

Palmu is the only one who didn't play games. The others basically all played, terribly, when they could have been upgraded on in the short term by veteran PTOs.

Palmu looked really bad. I don't know what else to say. His skating didn't cut it at this level and he couldn't receive a pass without it jumping 3 feet off his stick.

The AHL is a much tougher league that the Liiga. I think your issue is under rating the AHL.

Just one example from the same team, but Palmu is about as good as Zach Budish in the Liiga. Like Palmu, Budish could never make it as an AHL regular.

I disagree on league strenght and Im not alone.

https://thehockeywriters.com/top-10-best-ice-hockey-leagues/

 

[DonnyNucker]

I disagree on league strenght and Im not alone.

https://thehockeywriters.com/top-10-best-ice-hockey-leagues/

Wow. That’s a crazy list. Just wacko