Canucks announce Amateur Scout Director not returning

[LadyStanley]

Change of personnel.

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[Barclay Donaldson]

Brackett will likely be the most fought over free agent this summer, even though he isn't a player. He is reason why the Canucks replenished their talent pool so well. The modern day NHL is no long built through free agency or superior trading. It is now built through the draft. With his draft record, whoever manages to acquire his services is a lucky organization.

 

[Ernie]

The public nature of this disagreement will turn off a lot of clubs. He was reportedly seeking autonomy over draft decisions and a big raise, something that I doubt many GM's would agree to.

 

[Sinistril]

The public nature of this disagreement will turn off a lot of clubs. He was reportedly seeking autonomy over draft decisions and a big raise, something that I doubt many GM's would agree to.

What about clubs that need a new GM?

 

[theVladiator]

The public nature of this disagreement will turn off a lot of clubs. He was reportedly seeking autonomy over draft decisions and a big raise, something that I doubt many GM's would agree to.

I am assuming you think wanting to call the shots at the draft is the problem.

Hmm... Let's see who should make decisions - the person who dedicates 100% of his time to scouting, or the GM, who maybe spends 10% at the most on it? To me the answer is clear. So, if I am a GM I would not want it any other way - give the power and full responsibility for the results to the person dedicated to this task. On the flip side, a GM who wants to make those (uninformed) decisions himself just doesn't know what management means and probably should be let go, or maybe allowed to be a scouting director.

 

[93LEAFS]

I'm not sure its as much about calling the shots as the scouts voices being diminished in favor of a GM overruling them. Whoever is in charge of managing the entire scouting operation and creating the board which is generally an AGM, director of player personnel or Head of scouting or Amateur scouting should get the most input.

He's not going to be in the running for any GM job, but he may land on his feet depending on his network. A lot of GM's recognize they can't be hands on in the amateur scouting department. They give their guys an outline of what they want, and then let them lead.

 

[TT1]

hes gonna get paid

 

[93LEAFS]

hes gonna get paid

NHL is very much an old boy's network, and I don't think leaks are going to help him. And, of the younger guys, it seems Chyka and Dubas both like to be hands-on with their drafts. I think he'll land on his feet, but I'm not sure he's going to get paid or even an AGM job. I would be happy if the Leafs forked out money for him though.

I will add though, I wonder if he has a non-compete for this draft, which could delay him getting a job. And, two, how much are NHL teams to investing in amateur scouts when at the moment I have a hard time seeing how CHL, USHL, and College Hockey can reasonably function with no fans in the crowd (I'm not even sure the NHL could reasonably do a whole season with no fans).

 

[Breakers]

hes gonna get paid

His area was USHL/NTDP/NCAA
Quinn Hughes - 7th
Brock Boeser - 23rd
Thatcher Demko - 36th
Will Lockwood - 64th
Tyler Madden - 68th
Jack Rathbone - 95th
Adam Gaudette - 149th
Aidan Mcdonough - 195th

I'd say so

 

[LadyStanley]

I will add though, I wonder if he has a non-compete for this draft, which could delay him getting a job. And, two, how much are NHL teams to investing in amateur scouts when at the moment I have a hard time seeing how CHL, USHL, and College Hockey can reasonably function with no fans in the crowd (I'm not even sure the NHL could reasonably do a whole season with no fans).

Depends on Vancouver's status of final ranking. My guess is his contract expires 6/30/2020 (although with the timing of announcement it could be 5/31/2020). If he can't be hired until the fall (after NHL 2020 entry draft), how much scouting will he really miss? Who knows when NCAA and USHL/CHL will be playing again; many require fans in the stands.

There's always Seattle. Not that far from Vancouver (geographically). They will have their first amateur draft in 2021.

 

[93LEAFS]

Depends on Vancouver's status of final ranking. My guess is his contract expires 6/30/2020 (although with the timing of announcement it could be 5/31/2020). If he can't be hired until the fall (after NHL 2020 entry draft), how much scouting will he really miss? Who knows when NCAA and USHL/CHL will be playing again; many require fans in the stands.

There's always Seattle. Not that far from Vancouver (geographically). They will have their first amateur draft in 2021.

Brackett doesn't live in Van. Most scouts don't live in the market they work for, even some AGM's don't. Pretty sure Brackett is based out of New England.

Not that he won't go to Seattle, but geography will have almost nothing to do with it. For example, I know that Calgary's head of amateur scouting is based out of Toronto suburbs, when Hunter was in charge of the Leafs he still lived at his farm between Sarnia and London, Futa was GTA based, Leafs current director of player personnel lives in London, while the head Amateur scout lives in Boston. For a majority of NHL scouts, it makes no sense to live in the market for the team they scout for. Which is why they tend to be predominately located in places like Detroit, New England, Southern Ontario, Ottawa/Gatineau. You generally want to be in a hub. Toronto area is big for head scouts because the OHL is a massive region, it is not a far drive from QMJHL, USHL, and USNTDP for example while having close access to an international airport.

 

[Hansen]

The public nature of this disagreement will turn off a lot of clubs. He was reportedly seeking autonomy over draft decisions and a big raise, something that I doubt many GM's would agree to.

Actually thats the spin the organization is trying to put on it to slag him

Benning and Weisbrod wanted unilateral authority over every single pick, every single hiring/firing in the scouting department, and the ability to alter the draft board regardless of the departments input on the spot (which happened on day 2 of the 2019 Draft and resulted in a group of scouts making commotion about it and subsequently leaving)

Brackett wanted the authority to direct his department and have a voice, both of which had been taken away from him for the benefit of John Weisbrod

 

[sr edler]

The modern day NHL is no long built through free agency or superior trading.

Yes, strong teams never been built through drafting before. This is revolutionary and it's happening right in front of our eyes.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Yes, strong teams never been built through drafting before. This is revolutionary and it's happening right in front of our eyes.

Nice sarcasm. But I am correct. Look at the great teams of this past decade. The Penguins, Capitals, Blackhawks, Bruins and Kings were the teams with the most success, and their entire core group was all players

The top players with those teams were all drafted and not traded. Look at the great teams before them, like the Detroit Red Wings of the 90s and 2000s. Their truly top players they used to keep the team a contender were drafted in or attracted in free agency, like Shanahan, Chelios, Hasek, Robitaille, Osgood, Schneider, Draper, and the rest. The drafted players were in the minority, like Yzerman, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Lidstrom being the only notable players they drafted.

Another top team at that time was Colorado Avalanche where many top players were traded in, like Forsberg, Blake, Roy, Lemieux, Sandis Ozoliņš. Yeah, they had many players drafted like Sakic, but contenders were built through trades and free agency.

Before them it was the Pittsburgh Penguins. The only notable players were Lemieux, Jágr and Recchi. The rest of their team, which has generally been pointed to as one of the strongest teams of all time, was built on other all-star players traded or bought in through free agency like Stevens, Mullen, Murphy, Coffey, Francis, Tocchet, Bourque, Samuelsson, and Barrasso.

The Canadiens perpetuated the dynasty by trading away all of their draft picks!

You see where I'm going with this? Contenders were built through trades and free agency more than drafting. Case in point, how teams like Philadelphia and New York tried to turn their teams into contenders by trading for Eric Lindros. Teams didn't put anywhere near as much emphasis on scouting then as they do now. Pre-salary cap teams didn't have the cap to deal with. So you can be sarcastic and roll your eyes. Read any book or news article about drafting in the modern NHL, compare it with anything put out about contender building in the past and then educate yourself.

 

[sr edler]

The top players with those teams were all drafted and not traded. Look at the great teams before them, like the Detroit Red Wings of the 90s and 2000s. Their truly top players they used to keep the team a contender were drafted in or attracted in free agency, like Shanahan, Chelios, Hasek, Robitaille, Osgood, Schneider, Draper, and the rest. The drafted players were in the minority, like Yzerman, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Lidstrom being the only notable players they drafted.

Sergei Fyodorov, Vladimir Konstantinov, Viktor Kozlov & Tomas Holmström doesn't count as notable to those teams? But Mathieu Schneider, who to my to knowledge won approximately zero Stanley Cups with the Red Wings, does? Okay.

Red Wings won back-to-back Cups without Chelios, without Hasek, without Robitaille, without Brett Hull. And they continued to bring in key own draftees such as Kronwall, Franzen, Hudler and Filppula, the depth keeping them competitive as contenders up until 2009.

Of the 5 players who were on all three NJD Cup wins – Brodeur, Daneyko, Stevens, Niedermayer & Sergei Brylin – 4 of them were drafted by the club. The 5th – Stevens – wasn't even acquired through either trading or free agency but given to them as compensation by the league because the Blues nipped Shanahan from them in an unruly fashion.

Then they extended their competitive window by bringing in young key players through drafting: Patrik Elias, Scott Gomez, Petr Sykora. NJD, just like the Wings, built heavily through drafting.

Dallas Stars of the late 90s had a key group of players in Hatcher (captain), Matvichuk, Modano (best player), Langenbrunner, Lehtinen (three time Selke forward) drafted.

Another top team at that time was Colorado Avalanche where many top players were traded in, like Forsberg, Blake, Roy, Lemieux, Sandis Ozoliņš. Yeah, they had many players drafted like Sakic, but contenders were built through trades and free agency.

Quebec had to trade for Forsberg because Lindros didn't want to play for them.

 

[sr edler]

The Penguins, Capitals, Blackhawks, Bruins and Kings were the teams with the most success, and their entire core group was all players

Blackhawks had Hossa brought in as a big free agency piece, and Brian Campbell as a somewhat significant piece. Bruins acquired Zdeno Chara through free agency, Marc Savard too, Tim Thomas was a signing, Tuukka Rask through trade, Seguin through trading, Recchi, Horton, Ryder, Seidenberg, key depth players, weren't drafted by the club. Kings brought in both Carter and Richards through big trades, Justin Williams through trading, Willie Mitchell through free agency.

Both Penguins & Capitals had some good luck with the fact that when they tanked, some really great players were available to them. They didn't have to chose between Yakupov, Galchenyuk and Morgan Rielly, they could pick Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Fleury, even Bäckström, instead, without blinking. It's not like the Penguins and the Caps built their core groups through some revolutionary subtle late round scouting.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Sergei Fyodorov, Vladimir Konstantinov, Viktor Kozlov & Tomas Holmström doesn't count as notable to those teams? But Mathieu Schneider, who to my to knowledge won approximately zero Stanley Cups with the Red Wings, does? Okay.

Red Wings won back-to-back Cups without Chelios, without Hasek, without Robitaille, without Brett Hull. And they continued to bring in key own draftees such as Kronwall, Franzen, Hudler and Filppula, the depth keeping them competitive as contenders up until 2009.

Of the 5 players who were on all three NJD Cup wins – Brodeur, Daneyko, Stevens, Niedermayer & Sergei Brylin – 4 of them were drafted by the club. The 5th – Stevens – wasn't even acquired through either trading or free agency but given to them as compensation by the league because the Blues nipped Shanahan from them in an unruly fashion.

Then they extended their competitive window by bringing in young key players through drafting: Patrik Elias, Scott Gomez, Petr Sykora. NJD, just like the Wings, built heavily through drafting.

Dallas Stars of the late 90s had a key group of players in Hatcher (captain), Matvichuk, Modano (best player), Langenbrunner, Lehtinen (three time Selke forward) drafted.



Quebec had to trade for Forsberg because Lindros didn't want to play for them.

All those players were contributors. And funnily enough, Fedorov was attracted through free agency to Anaheim for less money because he felt he had a better chance to win the Cup. Konstantinov, well a car crash ended his career with only one Cup. Kozlov along with a draft pick was traded for Hašek, because Hašek was the piece that Detroit was missing the last few years and they won the Cup that year. Holmstrom in his long career only beat the 50 point mark two times.

Québec didn't have to trade for Forsberg. Pretty sure the initial deal from the Rangers included Amonte, Kovalev, Vanbiesbrouck and Weight and other things. Besides, having to trade for someone is absolutely irrelevant to what was being discussed.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Blackhawks had Hossa brought in as a big free agency piece, and Brian Campbell as a somewhat significant piece. Bruins acquired Zdeno Chara through free agency, Marc Savard too, Tim Thomas was a signing, Tuukka Rask through trade, Seguin through trading, Recchi, Horton, Ryder, Seidenberg, key depth players, weren't drafted by the club. Kings brought in both Carter and Richards through big trades, Justin Williams through trading, Willie Mitchell through free agency.

Both Penguins & Capitals had some good luck with the fact that when they tanked, some really great players were available to them. They didn't have to chose between Yakupov, Galchenyuk and Morgan Rielly, they could pick Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, even Bäckström, instead, without blinking. It's not like the Penguins and the Caps built their core groups through some revolutionary subtle late round scouting.

Pretty sure the Blackhawks core was Keith, Crawford, Seabrook, Toews, Kane, Bolland, Bickell, Brouwer, and others. Hossa wasn't even close to Top 3 in points when the Hawks were contenders, and Campell was not a significant piece.

Pretty sure the Penguins won back to back cups with a large group of players they drafted and picked up undrafted after heavily scouting them, that includes Sheary, Guentzel, Dumoulin was traded 2 months after he was drafted so I think it is fair to count him, Olli Määttä, Letang, Rust, Aston-Reese, Murray, and Jarry. None of those players except for maybe Letang were standout players at any stage of their careers before they were Penguins. Kuznetzov, Carolson, Wilson, Orlov, Vrána, and Braden Holtby were all late, late first rounders or not first rounders.

The Kings' main group was drafted players Kopitar, Quick, Brown, Doughty, Voynov, Martinez, Clifford, and multiple others. Of course there are going to be the players who are brought in through other means, but teams of today are built mostly through the draft.

 

[Ernie]

Actually thats the spin the organization is trying to put on it to slag him

Benning and Weisbrod wanted unilateral authority over every single pick, every single hiring/firing in the scouting department, and the ability to alter the draft board regardless of the departments input on the spot (which happened on day 2 of the 2019 Draft and resulted in a group of scouts making commotion about it and subsequently leaving)

Brackett wanted the authority to direct his department and have a voice, both of which had been taken away from him for the benefit of John Weisbrod

OK. I mean I really don't want to get caught up in the endless Benning arguments but little of what you are saying is actually based on anything.

If you want the best roundup of what happened (and you have a subscription) I suggest you read Drance and Dayal's article from today: Autonomy and a breakdown in trust: Why Judd Brackett is...

 

[sr edler]

Pretty sure the Blackhawks core was Keith, Crawford, Seabrook, Toews, Kane, Bolland, Bickell, Brouwer, and others. Hossa wasn't even close to Top 3 in points when the Hawks were contenders, and Campell was not a significant piece.

Pretty sure the Penguins won back to back cups with a large group of players they drafted and picked up undrafted after heavily scouting them, that includes Sheary, Guentzel, Dumoulin was traded 2 months after he was drafted so I think it is fair to count him, Olli Määttä, Letang, Rust, Aston-Reese, Murray, and Jarry. None of those players except for maybe Letang were standout players at any stage of their careers before they were Penguins. Kuznetzov, Carolson, Wilson, Orlov, Vrána, and Braden Holtby were all late, late first rounders or not first rounders.

The Kings' main group was drafted players Kopitar, Quick, Brown, Doughty, Voynov, Martinez, Clifford, and multiple others. Of course there are going to be the players who are brought in through other means, but teams of today are built mostly through the draft.

Hawks won their first Cup without Crawford. It's interesting you disregard Hossa as a core piece but claim Bickell & Brouwer instead. You're really stretching it there, to put it mildly. Hawks and Kings built their main cores through drafting, I agree. So did 90s Red Wings & NJD, and even Dallas. It usually what happens. It's very unusual historically to build a perennial contender mainly through free agency and trades. Both juggernauts in the 80s for instance, the Islanders & the Oilers, built their main cores through drafting.

 

[57special]

Benning went for being a punchline to somewhat respected due to the excellent young talent they have acquired. Seems like he has a lot to,thank Brackett for.

Couple of questions;

- did Brackett recommend Juolevi?
- was Brackett on board with the Toffoli trade?

 

[Ernie]

Benning went for being a punchline to somewhat respected due to the excellent young talent they have acquired. Seems like he has a lot to,thank Brackett for.

Couple of questions;

- did Brackett recommend Juolevi?
- was Brackett on board with the Toffoli trade?

Juolevi is considered a Benning pick. He hasn't turned out but he's been injured a lot so we'll see.
Bracket was the amateur scouting director, he would have no input on the Toffoli trade.

 

[StreetHawk]

Juolevi is considered a Benning pick. He hasn't turned out but he's been injured a lot so we'll see.
Bracket was the amateur scouting director, he would have no input on the Toffoli trade.

My thoughts on this situation are that Benning should be moving away from amateur scouting as he is in year 6 with the Canucks. His focus should be on the pro scouting side to make his team better. But he can’t seem to let go of the aspect of hockey operations that has led him to the GM role.

there’s no way he can spend the time necessary to evaluate kids in junior, NCAA and Europe.

If the two sides can’t agree on responsibility, Money, autonomy etc then its best that they part ways. We just saw the LA Kings AGM step down a couple of weeks ago.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

I imagine Seattle goes after him, but Buffalo has gotta get this guy more than ever. I see New Jersey making a good offer, but I think Buffalo would make good use out of him.

 

[Burke the Legend]

I'm not sure its as much about calling the shots as the scouts voices being diminished in favor of a GM overruling them. Whoever is in charge of managing the entire scouting operation and creating the board which is generally an AGM, director of player personnel or Head of scouting or Amateur scouting should get the most input.

He's not going to be in the running for any GM job, but he may land on his feet depending on his network. A lot of GM's recognize they can't be hands on in the amateur scouting department. They give their guys an outline of what they want, and then let them lead.

I remember watching the draft videos of Begrevin & Timmins at the desk and Bergevin is mostly deferring to Timmins the whole time. Makes sense because unless the GM focuses on being totally immersed in the amateur scouting (which would be weird, you would think they would use their time to focus on actual NHL pro hockey) it would take quite an egomaniac to be overruling his scouting directors who are spending all year compiling reports and rankings. Maybe Benning is that guy? Or maybe it's more about money.