Canucks Analytics

Melvin

21/12/05
Sep 29, 2017
15,198
28,055
Montreal, QC
Less of a low event stat. Its a step in the right direction.

I doubt we disagree too much on this.

We lack a bunch of data compared to sports where collecting it is easier.

Like I said it's more of a pet peeve than anything. If you change inputs to a formula but don't change the formula, you can't now declare that your formula is "advanced." the formula is not advanced and has not advanced, we just expanded the type of events to put into it and then gave it a stupid name and declared that its advanced.

Anyway I mostly get irritated because someone will say "that guys has good advanced stats" or "that guy has good analytics" and all they mean is "that guy has good shot attempt +/-." Analytics are a million times broader than that.

Like you would never hear someone in baseball say a player has "good analytics" instead of just saying he has a high WAR. But this happens in hockey all the time. Saying a player has "good analytics" is literally gibberish. One highly flawed, noisy metric is not analytics.
 
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PuckMunchkin

Very Nice, Very Evil!
Dec 13, 2006
12,310
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Lapland
Like I said it's more of a pet peeve than anything. If you change inputs to a formula but don't change the formula, you can't now declare that your formula is "advanced." the formula is not advanced and has not advanced, we just expanded the type of events to put into it and then gave it a stupid name and declared that its advanced.

Anyway I mostly get irritated because someone will say "that guys has good advanced stats" or "that guy has good analytics" and all they mean is "that guy has good shot attempt +/-." Analytics are a million times broader than that.

Like you would never hear someone in baseball say a player has "good analytics" instead of just saying he has a high WAR. But this happens in hockey all the time. Saying a player has "good analytics" is literally gibberish. One highly flawed, noisy metric is not analytics.

What about the rest of the data that gets collected. You seem to act like shots is the only thing being tracked..?
 

Melvin

21/12/05
Sep 29, 2017
15,198
28,055
Montreal, QC
What about the rest of the data that gets collected. You seem to act like shots is the only thing being tracked..?

Look at the OP. None of the "advanced stats" are anything more than +/- applied to shots and expressed as a % instead of a delta, and given fancy sounding names like "Fenwick."

Sorry, I just find it dumb and annoying. And we've already spent far more time on what jve already told you is a pet peeve.
 
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Melvin

21/12/05
Sep 29, 2017
15,198
28,055
Montreal, QC
I fixed my issues with those "impact" metrics. It's very mathy and boring so I won't go into it, but it had to do with how I was doing the weighted averages.

Here is the new data, using Shot Attempts, AKA Corsi.

As a quick tl;dr: This is the average effect that each player has on his teammate's SAT+/-, by comparing "with" to "without." A low score means that the player tends to bring down their teammates relative to when the teammates are not playing with the player.

Canucks:

EvaluatedPlayerAverageImpact (SAT)
ERIK GUDBRANSON-38.5
BRANDON SUTTER-23.51
CHRISTOPHER TANEV-23.48
JAY BEAGLE-16.39
TYLER MOTTE-15.82
BEN HUTTON-12.73
ALEXANDER EDLER-8.89
SVEN BAERTSCHI-5.95
ADAM GAUDETTE0.09
BO HORVAT1.24
BRENDAN LEIPSIC1.52
JAKE VIRTANEN2.98
LOUI ERIKSSON3.54
MARKUS GRANLUND3.62
NIKOLAY GOLDOBIN3.77
TIM SCHALLER4.04
DERRICK POULIOT10.6
MICHAEL DEL ZOTTO11.07
ALEX BIEGA12.37
BROCK BOESER13.25
ANTOINE ROUSSEL18.44
ELIAS PETTERSSON19.16
JOSH LEIVO21.34
TROY STECHER24.95
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

League:

EvaluatedPlayerTeamAverageImpact
MARC-EDOUARD VLASICS.J-46.47
JUSTIN BRAUNS.J-45.46
BRETT HOWDENNYR-42.6
ERIK GUDBRANSONVAN-38.5
NEAL PIONKNYR-37.39
RON HAINSEYTOR-36.57
PATRIK LAINEWPG-35.16
TOM PYATTOTT-34.74
NICK BONINONSH-34.66
CODY EAKINVGK-34.33
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

That top 2 is certainly interesting; both players have had much better results apart from one another as they have had together:

upload_2019-2-9_18-20-26.png



upload_2019-2-9_18-21-1.png


Pretty interesting. I don't follow the Sharks so not sure if these results are just a fluke or if they have really struggle together, or if there is anything else going on.

Top 10:

EvaluatedPlayerTeamAverageImpact
MARK STONEOTT67.16
ARTEMI PANARINCBJ64.63
SIDNEY CROSBYPIT59.3
DYLAN LARKINDET53.88
SEAN COUTURIERPHI49.99
BRENDAN GALLAGHERMTL48.95
TOMAS TATARMTL47.11
JAKE GUENTZELPIT43.92
NATHAN MACKINNONCOL43.19
RYAN JOHANSENNSH42.94
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

Bleach Clean

Registered User
Aug 9, 2006
27,017
6,581
Stecher being the best surprises me.

Also, Larkin at 53.88 and Horvat at 1.24... wow. I need to change my vote in that poll.
 

Horse McHindu

They call me Horse.....
Jun 21, 2014
9,668
2,650
Beijing
I fixed my issues with those "impact" metrics. It's very mathy and boring so I won't go into it, but it had to do with how I was doing the weighted averages.

Here is the new data, using Shot Attempts, AKA Corsi.

As a quick tl;dr: This is the average effect that each player has on his teammate's SAT+/-, by comparing "with" to "without." A low score means that the player tends to bring down their teammates relative to when the teammates are not playing with the player.

Canucks:

EvaluatedPlayerAverageImpact (SAT)
ERIK GUDBRANSON-38.5
BRANDON SUTTER-23.51
CHRISTOPHER TANEV-23.48
JAY BEAGLE-16.39
TYLER MOTTE-15.82
BEN HUTTON-12.73
ALEXANDER EDLER-8.89
SVEN BAERTSCHI-5.95
ADAM GAUDETTE0.09
BO HORVAT1.24
BRENDAN LEIPSIC1.52
JAKE VIRTANEN2.98
LOUI ERIKSSON3.54
MARKUS GRANLUND3.62
NIKOLAY GOLDOBIN3.77
TIM SCHALLER4.04
DERRICK POULIOT10.6
MICHAEL DEL ZOTTO11.07
ALEX BIEGA12.37
BROCK BOESER13.25
ANTOINE ROUSSEL18.44
ELIAS PETTERSSON19.16
JOSH LEIVO21.34
TROY STECHER24.95
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
League:

EvaluatedPlayerTeamAverageImpact
MARC-EDOUARD VLASICS.J-46.47
JUSTIN BRAUNS.J-45.46
BRETT HOWDENNYR-42.6
ERIK GUDBRANSONVAN-38.5
NEAL PIONKNYR-37.39
RON HAINSEYTOR-36.57
PATRIK LAINEWPG-35.16
TOM PYATTOTT-34.74
NICK BONINONSH-34.66
CODY EAKINVGK-34.33
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
That top 2 is certainly interesting; both players have had much better results apart from one another as they have had together:

View attachment 185071


View attachment 185073

Pretty interesting. I don't follow the Sharks so not sure if these results are just a fluke or if they have really struggle together, or if there is anything else going on.

Top 10:

EvaluatedPlayerTeamAverageImpact
MARK STONEOTT67.16
ARTEMI PANARINCBJ64.63
SIDNEY CROSBYPIT59.3
DYLAN LARKINDET53.88
SEAN COUTURIERPHI49.99
BRENDAN GALLAGHERMTL48.95
TOMAS TATARMTL47.11
JAKE GUENTZELPIT43.92
NATHAN MACKINNONCOL43.19
RYAN JOHANSENNSH42.94
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Interesting lists.

One question - how much of the above is related to on ice deployment?
 

Horse McHindu

They call me Horse.....
Jun 21, 2014
9,668
2,650
Beijing
Nice post. Vlasic has certainly declined. Laine is the real surprise for me, even though his struggles this season isn't a secret.

Guys like Vlasic, Sutter, Beagle, and Tanev are defensive-oriented players however and are used accordingly as a result.

That’s why I would like to know more about this statistic......and how it combines with the on ice deployment and role of said players.
 

Melvin

21/12/05
Sep 29, 2017
15,198
28,055
Montreal, QC
Alright one more analytics post for me! I am burning myself out researching like a million different things at once, lol. I think I've had a buildup of projects I've wanted to do the last 5 years that I've just finally had the time to do and now I'm hitting them all. So apologies for the spam.

Upthread I posted data on shot probabilities based on team-strength, shot type and distance-from net. the idea was to quantify the top shooters by making the most out of their shots.

Now, the next step is to apply the same methodology for goalies. Here is the same graph, with goals expressed as a % of shots-on-goal this time:

upload_2019-2-10_0-51-6.png


Since a lot of deflections miss the net, it makes sense that the curve when using SOG as denominator instead of SAT is closer to the regular curve.

Based on this, you can calculate the overall % chance of a shot being stopped and then sum it up for all goalies to get their expected goals allowed vs actual:

(Note my data from tonight's games is still updating so tonight's games are not included. I think Markstrom will be #1 after it's done. :D)

GoalieExpected GoalsGoals+/-Sv%Exp. Sv%Sv% +/-
JOHN GIBSON146123230.9140.8980.016
ROBIN LEHNER7656200.9320.9070.025
THOMAS GREISS7659170.9260.9040.022
BEN BISHOP9176150.9240.9090.015
LAURENT BROSSOIT4127140.9400.9100.030
JIMMY HOWARD10896120.9140.9040.011
COLLIN DELIA4634120.9230.8960.027
FREDERIK ANDERSEN10594110.9230.9140.009
ANDREI VASILEVSKIY8877110.9270.9170.010
JACK CAMPBELL4434100.9330.9130.020
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

John Gibson is arguably having a very underrated season because of the horrible play of his team. Based on this methodology he has done a better job stopping shots based on the types of shots he's faced and the volume than any other goalie. In fact, he was #1 last year too. His .898 expected save% is among the lowest in the NHL as he has simply had to face a lot of difficult shots.

Collin Delia, who stopped 40-of-43 against the Canucks the other night has also had fantastic results thus far in just 12 games to already be +12.

...trailers...

GoalieExpected GoalsGoals+/-Sv%Exp. Sv%Sv% +/-
ALEX STALOCK2736-90.8910.918-0.027
ROBERTO LUONGO6575-100.8970.911-0.014
CORY SCHNEIDER2030-100.8670.914-0.046
ANTTI NIEMI4354-110.8930.914-0.021
MICHAL NEUVIRTH1526-110.8590.917-0.058
MIKE SMITH6678-120.8890.905-0.017
CRAIG ANDERSON105117-120.9040.913-0.010
PHILIPP GRUBAUER5769-120.8890.908-0.019
CAM TALBOT7690-140.8950.911-0.016
KEITH KINKAID93111-180.8960.913-0.017
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Ooof some familiar names there for Canucks fans. Anderson was a disaster for Ottawa as the play of Nilsson has been demonstrating lately. Based on the shots faced he should have had a closer-to-average save%.

Speaking of Nilsson:


Goalie Expected GoalsGoals+/-Sv%Exp. Sv%Sv% +/-
ANDERS NILSSONVAN3437-30.8950.903-0.007
ANDERS NILSSONOTT241950.9340.9160.018
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The guy definitely seemed to have a raw deal in Vancouver, as you can see from the .903 expected save% vs .916 in Ottawa. It isn't a lot of data and not including tonight but supports what @Jyrki21 was saying about it being as much a change in context as a change in performance as he's seemingly had an easier time in Ottawa thus far.
 

Melvin

21/12/05
Sep 29, 2017
15,198
28,055
Montreal, QC
Melvin, i would live to see the data on Marky.

Here's everyone since 2014-15.

SeasonGoalieTeamExpected GoalsGoalsGoals Saved Above AverageSv%ExpectedSv%Sv% +/-
20142015EDDIE LACKVAN11994250.9220.9010.021
20152016RYAN MILLERVAN159136230.9170.9030.014
20162017RYAN MILLERVAN163150130.9140.9060.008
20152016JACOB MARKSTROMVAN938490.9150.9060.009
20162017JACOB MARKSTROMVAN716290.9110.8980.013
20182019JACOB MARKSTROMVAN12711980.9100.9040.006
20172018JACOB MARKSTROMVAN16015370.9120.9090.003
20142015RYAN MILLERVAN11210750.9110.9060.005
20162017RICHARD BACHMANVAN161330.9200.9000.020
20152016RICHARD BACHMANVAN3300.9030.914-0.011
20182019THATCHER DEMKOVAN3300.9230.9150.008
20142015JACOB MARKSTROMVAN34-10.8790.916-0.037
20172018THATCHER DEMKOVAN34-10.8670.903-0.036
20182019ANDERS NILSSONVAN3537-20.8950.902-0.007
20182019RICHARD BACHMANVAN26-40.7930.925-0.132
20172018ANDERS NILSSONVAN7984-50.9010.907-0.006
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

MadaCanuckle

Registered User
Jun 25, 2012
2,092
922
Lisboa
Here's everyone since 2014-15.

SeasonGoalieTeamExpected GoalsGoalsGoals Saved Above AverageSv%ExpectedSv%Sv% +/-
20142015EDDIE LACKVAN11994250.9220.9010.021
20152016RYAN MILLERVAN159136230.9170.9030.014
20162017RYAN MILLERVAN163150130.9140.9060.008
20152016JACOB MARKSTROMVAN938490.9150.9060.009
20162017JACOB MARKSTROMVAN716290.9110.8980.013
20182019JACOB MARKSTROMVAN12711980.9100.9040.006
20172018JACOB MARKSTROMVAN16015370.9120.9090.003
20142015RYAN MILLERVAN11210750.9110.9060.005
20162017RICHARD BACHMANVAN161330.9200.9000.020
20152016RICHARD BACHMANVAN3300.9030.914-0.011
20182019THATCHER DEMKOVAN3300.9230.9150.008
20142015JACOB MARKSTROMVAN34-10.8790.916-0.037
20172018THATCHER DEMKOVAN34-10.8670.903-0.036
20182019ANDERS NILSSONVAN3537-20.8950.902-0.007
20182019RICHARD BACHMANVAN26-40.7930.925-0.132
20172018ANDERS NILSSONVAN7984-50.9010.907-0.006
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Excellent. It seems our goaltending has been a strength for our team. I would say a lot about the Miller signing but I don't want to derail this thread.
 

zcaptain

Registered User
Apr 4, 2012
1,559
530
Numbers are interesting...….

What I would like to see is a analytic for

player production X team-mate production X offensive starts X defensive starts X Opposition quality*

*Opposition Quality being same calculation
 

vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
16,799
4,016
Thought it was time to bring this back...

What do people make of WAR? I.e How accurate and useful is it as a stat if you were to look back at previous predictions? Is it more useful at a team level than individual? As someone who has always been a supporter of using analytics as an evaluative tool, WAR is relatively unfamiliar to me and it would be great if we talked about it more. Even GAR...

This article from Canucks Army for instance is using an example of WAR to estimate how well the team will do this season, though it's obviously a little optimistic given that there's essentially zero chance of those 4 lines/3 pairings staying together all year:

https://canucksarmy.com/2019/08/03/getting-the-most-points-out-of-a-canucks-lineup/
 

PuckMunchkin

Very Nice, Very Evil!
Dec 13, 2006
12,310
9,982
Lapland
Thought it was time to bring this back...

What do people make of WAR? I.e How accurate and useful is it as a stat if you were to look back at previous predictions? Is it more useful at a team level than individual? As someone who has always been a supporter of using analytics as an evaluative tool, WAR is relatively unfamiliar to me and it would be great if we talked about it more. Even GAR...

This article from Canucks Army for instance is using an example of WAR to estimate how well the team will do this season, though it's obviously a little optimistic given that there's essentially zero chance of those 4 lines/3 pairings staying together all year:

https://canucksarmy.com/2019/08/03/getting-the-most-points-out-of-a-canucks-lineup/

WAR is the one new stat I feel most uncomfortable with. Feels like you would need to control for SO MANY things for it to mean anything.
And I do mean "feels like" as opposed to it necessarily being the case, since I honestly dont completely understand the way it is calculated...
 

Tables of Stats

Registered User
Nov 1, 2011
4,453
4,216
Vancouver, BC
WAR is the one new stat I feel most uncomfortable with. Feels like you would need to control for SO MANY things for it to mean anything.
And I do mean "feels like" as opposed to it necessarily being the case, since I honestly dont completely understand the way it is calculated...

Is the exact formula and weighting system even publically available? I went looking for it couldn't find any concrete data. Without that, honestly, WAR just seems like a black box where you have to trust that the person who made it put together correctly.
 
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Motte and Bailey

Registered User
Jun 21, 2017
3,692
1,556
I fixed my issues with those "impact" metrics. It's very mathy and boring so I won't go into it, but it had to do with how I was doing the weighted averages.

Here is the new data, using Shot Attempts, AKA Corsi.

As a quick tl;dr: This is the average effect that each player has on his teammate's SAT+/-, by comparing "with" to "without." A low score means that the player tends to bring down their teammates relative to when the teammates are not playing with the player.

Canucks:

EvaluatedPlayerAverageImpact (SAT)
ERIK GUDBRANSON-38.5
BRANDON SUTTER-23.51
CHRISTOPHER TANEV-23.48
JAY BEAGLE-16.39
TYLER MOTTE-15.82
BEN HUTTON-12.73
ALEXANDER EDLER-8.89
SVEN BAERTSCHI-5.95
ADAM GAUDETTE0.09
BO HORVAT1.24
BRENDAN LEIPSIC1.52
JAKE VIRTANEN2.98
LOUI ERIKSSON3.54
MARKUS GRANLUND3.62
NIKOLAY GOLDOBIN3.77
TIM SCHALLER4.04
DERRICK POULIOT10.6
MICHAEL DEL ZOTTO11.07
ALEX BIEGA12.37
BROCK BOESER13.25
ANTOINE ROUSSEL18.44
ELIAS PETTERSSON19.16
JOSH LEIVO21.34
TROY STECHER24.95
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
League:

EvaluatedPlayerTeamAverageImpact
MARC-EDOUARD VLASICS.J-46.47
JUSTIN BRAUNS.J-45.46
BRETT HOWDENNYR-42.6
ERIK GUDBRANSONVAN-38.5
NEAL PIONKNYR-37.39
RON HAINSEYTOR-36.57
PATRIK LAINEWPG-35.16
TOM PYATTOTT-34.74
NICK BONINONSH-34.66
CODY EAKINVGK-34.33
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
That top 2 is certainly interesting; both players have had much better results apart from one another as they have had together:

View attachment 185071


View attachment 185073

Pretty interesting. I don't follow the Sharks so not sure if these results are just a fluke or if they have really struggle together, or if there is anything else going on.

Top 10:

EvaluatedPlayerTeamAverageImpact
MARK STONEOTT67.16
ARTEMI PANARINCBJ64.63
SIDNEY CROSBYPIT59.3
DYLAN LARKINDET53.88
SEAN COUTURIERPHI49.99
BRENDAN GALLAGHERMTL48.95
TOMAS TATARMTL47.11
JAKE GUENTZELPIT43.92
NATHAN MACKINNONCOL43.19
RYAN JOHANSENNSH42.94
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

How much stock can we put in a metric that would suggest that Derek Pouliot is so much better than Chris Tanev that the gap is wider than the gap is between Tanev and Gudbranson?
 

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