Confirmed with Link: Canuck Boss Francesco Aquillini State of the Union

MadaCanuckle

Registered User
Jun 25, 2012
2,092
921
Lisboa
You’d think people would have better ways to spend their time over making troll accounts.
Not troll accounts. These are paid people. They are paid to spread the message. And if you don't think it is possible, check the number of new users on this Canucks subforum after someone on management gives a big interview.
 

Elias GOATtersson

Registered User
Jan 8, 2011
1,603
1,122
Astroturfers (I agree with ^, no one else is this dedicated to contrarianism) won’t stop posting if they’re ignored, and people will see those posts and might think they’re reasonable.
 
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SillyRabbit

Trix Are For Kids
Jan 3, 2006
7,552
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I believe the astroturfing suspicion, just check /r/Canucks.

Anything anti-Benning gets a boatload of downvotes, no matter how reasonable or obvious.
 
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krutovsdonut

eeyore
Sep 25, 2016
16,772
9,427
You’d think people would have better ways to spend their time over making troll accounts.

i don't agree with him a lot of the time, but he does not come across as a hired shill to me. you underestimate the tenacity that being repeatedly called an idiot can engender.
 

krutovsdonut

eeyore
Sep 25, 2016
16,772
9,427
Not troll accounts. These are paid people. They are paid to spread the message. And if you don't think it is possible, check the number of new users on this Canucks subforum after someone on management gives a big interview.

i can see that a pr firm might maintain a bunch of reddit accounts. those would be valuable to have available for many clients. the idea that someone would pay someone to post lengthy opinions here is farfetched though. it's not as if rmb is changing minds here. there is no pr value in paying someone to be insulted and patronized constantly.
 

Motte and Bailey

Registered User
Jun 21, 2017
3,692
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I don't understand.

What does 2011 have to do with Jim Benning being incompetent?

You seriously think its lack of analysis on the part of the people who don't want Benning here?

Ofcourse it comes from genuine concern about the direction the team’s headed in. This claim makes no sense on any level.

To me it just strikes odd that you would side with a person in charge of the team instead of the team it self, and put your reputation on line just to spin every single thing to fit the image you are trying to paint.

If it was about the direction the franchise is headed then people should be praising Benning right now. Every knowledgeable and respected hockey mind has been talking about how the future is bright in Vancouver. So why do certain posters here act like the franchise is doomed? Why do these posters so often turn out to be the same posters who admit they “hated Jim Benning from his first press conference” which is the rejection of any possibility of a fair analysis of Benning’s body of work.
 

Motte and Bailey

Registered User
Jun 21, 2017
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What are those criticisms that don't stand up to scrutiny?

There’s a clear example of this earlier in the thread which I responded to:

What a weird interview. Aquilini spent a lot of time preaching patience, and then also at one point said the team could become "very good very quickly". Hard to know what he's really thinking.

Those two statements are entirely consistent with each other.

A team can be patient, like the Leafs were for example, then win the lottery or draft a grand slam homerun pick and that pick alone could cause the team to just click and become very good very quickly.

To make the example more concrete I'll use the Canucks. We could be patient for the next year or two, then draft someone like Jack Hughes or Alexis Lafreniere, and they might make such a big immediate impact that the team becomes very good very quickly due to our other prospects (which are collectively rated extremely highly) also graduating at the same time.

Again, nothing inconsistent with that. I'm not accusing you of this but I feel like a lot of people here, due to their significant bias associated with being big fans of Mike Gillis (the guy Mr. Aquilini fired), are very likely to misinterpret Mr. Aquilini's words into putting a negative context on them when, in fact, everything he said today was extremely positive and should give every fan some relief that the ship is headed in the right direction and excitement that we're lucky enough to have such a passionate owner.
 

SeawaterOnIce

Being invaded again.
Aug 28, 2011
15,407
18,317
i can see that a pr firm might maintain a bunch of reddit accounts. those would be valuable to have available for many clients. the idea that someone would pay someone to post lengthy opinions here is farfetched though. it's not as if rmb is changing minds here. there is no pr value in paying someone to be insulted and patronized constantly.

Seems pretty far fetched but we see this play out on social media and message boards - especially when it comes to political parties. As far as sports go, yes, there was a scandal in Italy a few years ago where many users defending management/owners and attacking critics were linked to the AC Milan club.
 

krutovsdonut

eeyore
Sep 25, 2016
16,772
9,427
Seems pretty far fetched but we see this play out on social media and message boards - especially when it comes to political parties. As far as sports go, yes, there was a scandal in Italy a few years ago where many users defending management/owners and attacking critics were linked to the AC Milan club.

oh 100% i agree there are actual hockey people and hockey media people active on this board. i doubt they are encouraged or even authorized to do it by their employers though, and it is a dumb idea even if they are careful. it would be a potential career limiting move to be a controversial poster here. you get caught and in the ensuing twitter storm every word you ever said comes back to bite you and your employer.
 

Motte and Bailey

Registered User
Jun 21, 2017
3,692
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? What have you changed your mind on? this just reads like Backfire effect - RationalWiki ...

I’ve changed my mind on the most fundamental beliefs politically, religiously, and philosophically many times as a result of discussion and debate. If you’re committed to protecting your ego first and foremost then the backfire effect makes sense but if you’re consciously and fully committed to the finding the truth it doesn’t really apply.
 

PuckMunchkin

Very Nice, Very Evil!
Dec 13, 2006
12,219
9,932
Lapland
If it was about the direction the franchise is headed then people should be praising Benning right now. Every knowledgeable and respected hockey mind has been talking about how the future is bright in Vancouver. So why do certain posters here act like the franchise is doomed? Why do these posters so often turn out to be the same posters who admit they “hated Jim Benning from his first press conference” which is the rejection of any possibility of a fair analysis of Benning’s body of work.

This feels like I would have to start explaining someone Roman history by first convincing someone that Rome actually existed.

I don't think Im up to the task.

Lets just say building a cup contender is far more then just hitting on ½ of your top10 overalls.
 
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Peter10

Registered User
Dec 7, 2003
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Why do these posters so often turn out to be the same posters who admit they “hated Jim Benning from his first press conference” which is the rejection of any possibility of a fair analysis of Benning’s body of work.

Could you please list these posters and (if possible) provide a quote of them admitting this? I cant really remember any who hated Benning right from the get go.
 

Motte and Bailey

Registered User
Jun 21, 2017
3,692
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Could you please list these posters and (if possible) provide a quote of them admitting this? I cant really remember any who hated Benning right from the get go.

Im not going to dig through every single thread over the last 4 years but the most recent example I can remember was Post#216 in the Gillis 1040 interview thread.
 

Motte and Bailey

Registered User
Jun 21, 2017
3,692
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This feels like I would have to start explaining someone Roman history by first convincing someone that Rome actually existed.

I don't think Im up to the task.

Lets just say building a cup contender is far more then just hitting on ½ of your top10 overalls.

Building a hockey team is mostly drafting in this new NHL and Benning’s hit rate is as good as it gets.
 

Intangibos

High-End Intangibos
Apr 5, 2010
7,806
3,370
Burnaby
Welp, if anyone was wondering whether Francesco was an intelligent businessman who earned his fortune or a trust fund baby with severely poor judgement and decision making skills, I think this answers the question.

"He doesn't know hockey so he doesn't know business either"

The thing I find funny is that he was so desperate for playoff revenue that he refused to greenlight a rebuild under Gillis, yet he’s pissed away more than he would’ve earned even if we made the playoffs every year in bad Benning contracts.

Had he just allowed the rebuild to go forward, he would’ve actually saved money on bad contracts, still missed the playoffs the same amount of times, but would have a strong roster of young players ready to start making the playoffs and earning him even more money.

It’s a lesson in how shortsightedness can cost you in the long term if you don’t look at things from the right perspective.

It's only a lesson if he can grasp the concept. He still thinks Gillis left the cupboards empty rather than Benning squandering all he was given.

Guy is a f***ing moron in regards to hockey
 
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Intangibos

High-End Intangibos
Apr 5, 2010
7,806
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Burnaby
He whiffed on JV & OJ. Nailed EP & BB.
If he is going to struggle with his trades and pro-scouting in general like he has so far, he needs to be better than average at the draft.

It's important to note that BB was a great pick, especially where he was drafted, and EP is just fantastic, but those are two pretty high picks on JV and OJ to completely whiff on.

1/3 in the top 10 in years where there is plenty of talent there is not acceptable for a scouting guru
 
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kanuck87

Registered User
Oct 12, 2008
7,167
1,460
If it was about the direction the franchise is headed then people should be praising Benning right now. Every knowledgeable and respected hockey mind has been talking about how the future is bright in Vancouver. So why do certain posters here act like the franchise is doomed? Why do these posters so often turn out to be the same posters who admit they “hated Jim Benning from his first press conference” which is the rejection of any possibility of a fair analysis of Benning’s body of work.

Context matters.

The future is bright because of Benning's ineptitude on the pro side of hockey matters. You realize that Benning has been actively trying to make the playoffs the last three seasons and has failed miserably, right?

I'll credit Benning for overseeing a scouting department that has produced a great pool of prospects, but he has given me no indication that he can build a cup contending team from top to bottom. The team is more than just about having a great core. Contending teams need good supporting players as well and the only way Benning has been able to get a good supporting cast is to overpay for them. Look at Sutter. Beagle. Roussel. Schaller. Gudbranson. Gagner. Del Zotto. Dorsett. This isn't sustainable in the long-term. When our core begins to get more expensive, overpaying (or even paying market-value) for bottom-6 forwards and bottom-pairing defensemen isn't a luxury that Benning can afford, and unfortunately, Benning has shown almost no ability to dumpster dive for effective supporting cast players in the 4 years that he's been here.
 

VanJack

Registered User
Jul 11, 2014
21,049
14,079
After steeling myself and sitting through the puff-ball questions offered up by Sportsnet 650, a couple of things are obvious. Firstly, the fact that Linden tried to be the Canucks president and keep his other businesses going at the same time, was obviously a sticking point. My impression, the owner wanted him to pick one or the other.

Secondly, Aquilini says he talks to 'other NHL owners' all the time. This is curious. I would have thought that other owners would hold their cards pretty close to their vests on how to build a successful franchise. Tells me he still isn't sold on the current management group and is continually beating the bushes for an upgrade.

And finally, I have to say when the owner of an NHL team that's missed the playoffs four out of the last five years and is a long-shot this year, preaching 'patience' is admirable. But you can't simply 'draft your way' to winning a Cup. At some point you have to hit a home-run via trade and free agency. And if he has confidence in Benning--given the track record--then God bless him and good luck!
 

Motte and Bailey

Registered User
Jun 21, 2017
3,692
1,556
Preaching patience and giving out big contracts for FA, saying they have an exciting group of prospects they need to develop and signing veterans which take away spots in the lineup where they could develop properly, saying they are in a rebuild (finally) and the net worth of this regime is negative regarding picks... should I continue?

But if you want to more, please have some fun in the Lindenning Quotes Twitter handle. They have even more stand up material.

^

Aquilini "knew" we had 2 prospects in the cupboard, therefore he knew we had to rebuild, but Benning made plenty of moves early on that did not support that whatsoever. You'd think if you're hiring someone for a job that he'd agree with your vision of the future.

These are popular misconceptions and I’m glad you raised them here so I can correct the record.

1. Giving out contracts to free agents like they did with Loui Eriksson and Jay Beagle is not at odds with preaching patience, it’s a part of being patient. Consider the idea that letting prospects develop where they need to be, and not forcing them into high-pressure situations in the NHL before they’re ready with no support, is the epitome of patience. Signing guys like I mentioned is the only way to do that. They signed Eriksson and Beagle because they were patient not because they were impatient.

2. Having a net deficit of overall draft picks for a rebuilding team is also not a contradiction and also misleading because you’re judging quality not quantity. The Canucks needed to draft game changing talent which is only a realistic possibility with 1st round picks. In that department they have maintained a net surplus of picks since Benning was hired. Hitting on later round picks realistically yields support players which isn’t a priority. Consider a timeline where we got 5 extra 5th round picks and hit on all of them. Now we have 5 Adam Gaudette level players. Does that change our need for a Pettersson or a Quinn Hughes? No. It gives a prospect pool that is already very deep a little bit more depth. It doesn’t really change anything. So in terms of drafting Benning has been doing a great job getting the most out of his drafts despite what a single contextless canard of a factoid might suggest.

3. @adamzilla your example is based on an unstated idea that is itself based on a false dichotomy. The idea is you’re either trying to compete for the playoffs and beyond or you’re blowing up your team and rebuilding. There is a third, more balanced and sustainable option which is phasing out your old core players while building a new core. This is what they decided and every indication is they are doing it the right way successfully.

These are 3 prominent criticisms of the regime that I just dismantled with ease which is why I say there are no substantive criticisms @PuckMunchkin
 

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