Rumor: Canadiens not getting fair offers for Max Pacioretty

[Habs Halifax]

I don't think that's smart. It's going to be a zoo with the media all over him if he plays with them this year. Better just to get rid of the distraction.

Who cares about distraction in a year where the Habs are not suppose to compete for a cup? Patch is not a distraction to the team and players around him. He is only a distraction for the media that can't help themselves with reporting anything to create a story.

Sorry, The smart move is to stay patient and be willing to go all the way to the trade deadline.

 

[PromisedLand]

I have a feeling that Patches is dealt at the TDL to the highest bidder just before the deadline approaches; right now Bergevin is going to be low balled

 

[admiralcadillac]

Yes it does. Here's a detailed breakdown of why and how:


Bergevin let Markov and Radulov walk for nothing.


That's been proven countless times over. Remember PK's bridge contract fiasco? Galchenyuk not a center? Drouin IS a center? Then Drouin is NOT a center but he's the best we've got? (You know Galchenyuk didn't exist in Bergevin's world at that point. he was dead to him.)


He blamed Markov saying he couldn't communicate with him and it was his fault for not having an agent.

He blamed Radulov saying he offered him the same contract as the Stars before the Stars did but he wanted more. And Radulov came out saying he only matched what the Stars offered after they did not before.

So yeah, makes perfect sense.

Nah, you know why? MB is trying to trade Pacioretty which isn't the case for the others, who he wanted to keep. You seem to have left out the single most important difference in order to make a comparable that isn't actually relevant.

 

[Mr Positive]

I have a feeling that Patches is dealt at the TDL to the highest bidder just before the deadline approaches; right now Bergevin is going to be low balled

there is usually overpays at the deadline, but the total value would be less then than it would be today. The overpays at the deadline are taking the small amount of time left in the season into account.

However, you could be right just because the problem right now might be a lack of suitors because of cap issues. Things could open up at the deadline if teams find more ways to clear salary between now and then, or have injury issues that open up space.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I have a feeling that Patches is dealt at the TDL to the highest bidder just before the deadline approaches; right now Bergevin is going to be low balled

I think the window closed on draft day when deals with the Kings and Islanders fell through. The next window is Nov/Dec when teams can evaluate how they look after the season starts.

There is always a chance he gets traded before the season starts but I think the means Bergevin decides to sell low. I just don't see him selling low at this stage. The window for me is Nov/Dec to the deadline.

 

[Habs Halifax]

there is usually overpays at the deadline, but the total value would be less then than it would be today. The overpays at the deadline are taking the small amount of time left in the season into account.

However, you could be right just because the problem right now might be a lack of suitors because of cap issues. Things could open up at the deadline if teams find more ways to clear salary between now and then, or have injury issues that open up space.

Clarify... You are saying overpayment happens at the deadline but Patch gets more today vs at the deadline? Show us your examples of what you think he gets today vs at the deadline?

 

[Deficient Mode]

Weird. You using a reported leak from the media as factual information against the management? I think Bergevin has a big mouth and says things he shouldn't but I don't think things will change in Montreal. It's hero or zero mentality. When there is a bad season, everything gets thrown under the bus by a lot of fans and the media.

Do you know for sure that Bergevin has told Patch he will not re-sign him?

Reported leaks like that affect a player's trade value. If other teams know you're not going to re-sign a player and the media is reporting that you're desperate to get rid of him, all the leverage is in their favor. Just look at the Skinner trade, and the Canes' urgency to sell him only got a fraction of the publicity that the Pacioretty situation is getting.

Of course I don't know that for sure, but I believe the journalists reporting it.

 

[Mr Positive]

Clarify... You are saying overpayment happens at the deadline but Patch gets more today vs at the deadline? Show us your examples of what you think he gets today vs at the deadline?

It's a bit tough to do that since you are imagining what a player would have got in a different situation. I'd say that if the deadline were so much better for getting total value, and not just value/week, then why do any teams trade impending UFAs during the summer?

However, one example that makes sense is Karlsson. It was rumored that Vegas offered two 1sts and a high level prospect or player (maybe Theodore), and another conditional pick (possibly a first rounder), in addition to having Bobby Ryan included (and that's for a player who likely requested a trade out). If they wait until the deadline of this season, they might get that deal except without Ryan included, or lose significant value on the picks.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Reported leaks like that affect a player's trade value. If other teams know you're not going to re-sign a player and the media is reporting that you're desperate to get rid of him, all the leverage is in their favor. Just look at the Skinner trade, and the Canes' urgency to sell him only got a fraction of the publicity that the Pacioretty situation is getting.

Of course I don't know that for sure, but I believe the journalists reporting it.

Pretty sure the offers from the GM's across the league were much higher than the low ball BS people insist on these boards for Patch. The problem is Bergevin has the price way too high from the get go. Truth is in the middle and sorry, I don't think NHL GM's think Patch is not worth much. There were likely lots of solid offers but not enough for Bergevin to swing a deal.

Media can report whatever they want. It might have some impact to what fans think but NHL GM's know the facts.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It's a bit tough to do that since you are imagining what a player would have got in a different situation. I'd say that if the deadline were so much better for getting total value, and not just value/week, then why do any teams trade impending UFAs during the summer?

However, one example that makes sense is Karlsson. It was rumored that Vegas offered two 1sts and a high level prospect or player (maybe Theodore), and another conditional pick (possibly a first rounder), in addition to having Bobby Ryan included (and that's for a player who likely requested a trade out). If they wait until the deadline of this season, they might get that deal except without Ryan included, or lose significant value on the picks.

No need to group Patch in the Karlsson elite type players. Look at the Nash return at the past deadline. Spooner, Beleskey, Lindgren, 2018 1st, and a 7th. Nash and Patch are good comparables IMO. Am I saying Patch gets the exact return? No. But I do expect a 1st and other pieces at the deadline for Patch.

I don't agree Patch gets less today vs what he could get at the next deadline. Sorry. The major hurdle with trying to acquire Patch for the full season is Bergevin is looking for a crazy return or no deal. Not getting solid offers? That is not fact, that is an opinion based on rumors.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Pretty sure the offers from the GM's across the league were much higher than the low ball BS people insist on these boards for Patch. The problem is Bergevin has the price way too high from the get go. Truth is in the middle and sorry, I don't think NHL GM's think Patch is not worth much. There were likely lots of solid offers but not enough for Bergevin to swing a deal.

Media can report whatever they want. It might have some impact to what fans think but NHL GM's know the facts.

Well they shouldn't be selling him low anyway. He had a flukily down year of production despite good underlying numbers and the Habs are so publicly showing they don't want him, on top of that. Of course NHL GMs aren't going to offer nearly as much as they would have a year ago. Most of them overreact to one season as much as you described Habs fans or indeed Bergevin himself.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Well they shouldn't be selling him low anyway. He had a flukily down year of production despite good underlying numbers and the Habs are so publicly showing they don't want him, on top of that. Of course NHL GMs aren't going to offer nearly as much as they would have a year ago. Most of them overreact to one season as much as you described Habs fans or indeed Bergevin himself.

I don't think his off year was fluky. I think he was playing with lack of skill and our center depth got worse than previous years (Believe it or not). The overall team confidence was terrible (except for Gallagher who shows up). Patch is not a #1 forward and walking into last year, he was. It's not the ideal situation for him and I think all NHL GM's know it.

I think there is plenty of interest for Patch but Bergevin has set the price way too high. That has turned off a few GM's IMO. Now those GM's who were interested explored other options and pretty much every team has a full roster now. At this stage, I support staying patient and waiting for the season to start and teams to see where they stand after a few months in

 

[Mr Positive]

No need to group Patch in the Karlsson elite type players. Look at the Nash return at the past deadline. Spooner, Beleskey, Lindgren, 2018 1st, and a 7th. Nash and Patch are good comparables IMO. Am I saying Patch gets the exact return? No. But I do expect a 1st and other pieces at the deadline for Patch.

I don't agree Patch gets less today vs what he could get at the next deadline. Sorry. The major hurdle with trying to acquire Patch for the full season is Bergevin is looking for a crazy return or no deal. Not getting solid offers? That is not fact, that is an opinion based on rumors.

I'm just bringing up Karlsson because I think it is a case where there is a ton of value based on the extra year that Karlsson offered, and that if Ottawa waits until the deadline they will not get as much.

In order to be sure about exactly what a lowball offer today means, we'd have to know what Bergevin is being offered now, and what his expectation is. That's the hard part of this argument. Is there a single instance where we have reliable information of an offer made on an impending UFA in the summer that was matched or beaten at the deadline? I'm assuming that Ottawa waiting on a deal for Karlsson will hurt his total value, but his "trade value/time left" will go up. Even I don't have real proof of this though, but I will consider that Karlsson offer to be reliable so we'll get to see what gets (unless he re-signs of course).

 

[Deficient Mode]

I don't think his off year was fluky. I think he was playing with lack of skill and our center depth got worse than previous years (Believe it or not). The overall team confidence was terrible (except for Gallagher who shows up). Patch is not a #1 forward and walking into last year, he was. It's not the ideal situation for him and I think all NHL GM's know it.

I think there is plenty of interest for Patch but Bergevin has set the price way too high. That has turned off a few GM's IMO. Now those GM's who were interested explored other options and pretty much every team has a full roster now. At this stage, I support staying patient and waiting for the season to start and teams to see where they stand after a few months in

His underlying shot volume and shot quality were still those of a first line winger. I agree that the Habs' lack of centers and more specifically of creative passers (who are usually centers) caught up to them a lot this year, but I point primarily to that team context to explain Pacioretty's numbers falling off a cliff. He was a bit worse this year, but not by nearly as much as the production alone would indicate. That's the only thing most people including most GMs will look at.

 

[Edgy]

Nah, you know why? MB is trying to trade Pacioretty which isn't the case for the others, who he wanted to keep. You seem to have left out the single most important difference in order to make a comparable that isn't actually relevant.

Doesn't matter what he's "trying" to do. It's the end result that matters.
He wasn't "trying" to trade Subban, but ended up doing it anyways. So the argument is still valid and very much relevant.

 

[417]

Reported leaks like that affect a player's trade value. If other teams know you're not going to re-sign a player and the media is reporting that you're desperate to get rid of him, all the leverage is in their favor. Just look at the Skinner trade, and the Canes' urgency to sell him only got a fraction of the publicity that the Pacioretty situation is getting.

Of course I don't know that for sure, but I believe the journalists reporting it.

This is only meaningful if you truly believe that other teams and their GM's only find out about the availability of players once the media gets a hold of it.

I can assure you, other teams have known about the intention of the Habs to trade Max Pacioretty well before that "report" came out in July.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Well they shouldn't be selling him low anyway. He had a flukily down year of production despite good underlying numbers and the Habs are so publicly showing they don't want him, on top of that. Of course NHL GMs aren't going to offer nearly as much as they would have a year ago. Most of them overreact to one season as much as you described Habs fans or indeed Bergevin himself.

The lack of movement on the blueline is what killed Patches productivity last year in my opinion. He can get by with adequate centers which he’s proven throughout his career by our transition to the forwards was predictably atrocious.

 

[417]

Well they shouldn't be selling him low anyway. He had a flukily down year of production despite good underlying numbers and the Habs are so publicly showing they don't want him, on top of that. Of course NHL GMs aren't going to offer nearly as much as they would have a year ago. Most of them overreact to one season as much as you described Habs fans or indeed Bergevin himself.

The Habs have no done this...this is 100% false.

The only statement anyone in the Montreal Canadiens organization has made about Max Pacioretty is that he's their captain and they expect him to be at training camp in September.

Now the story is likely different behind the scenes...but PUBLICLY as you put it, they haven't done anything to say they don't want him.

 

[HOPE]

The Habs have no done this...this is 100% false.

The only statement anyone in the Montreal Canadiens organization has made about Max Pacioretty is that he's their captain and they expect him to be at training camp in September.

Now the story is likely different behind the scenes...but PUBLICLY as you put it, they haven't done anything to say they don't want him.

While i’d like to agree, they haven’t made anything public personnaly besides rumors.

But now theres rumor that bergevin, Molson, Julien won’t be attending his annual golf tournament, wich they always did. Thats realy odd even if you are trying to trade him, i get thos organization right now, it’s hella unprofessional, trying be play hard ball, its useless and makes a bad image.

 

[Deficient Mode]

This is only meaningful if you truly believe that other teams and their GM's only find out about the availability of players once the media gets a hold of it.

I can assure you, other teams have known about the intention of the Habs to trade Max Pacioretty well before that "report" came out in July.

I never said NHL GMs didn't know he was available. Of course they knew he was being shopped. We knew he was being shopped before July too. The rumors and reports that have come out this summer go way beyond "being shopped" and into "possibly permanently damaged relationship" territory. The Habs are only putting more pressure on themselves to trade him, and that affects their leverage.

The Habs have no done this...this is 100% false.

The only statement anyone in the Montreal Canadiens organization has made about Max Pacioretty is that he's their captain and they expect him to be at training camp in September.

Now the story is likely different behind the scenes...but PUBLICLY as you put it, they haven't done anything to say they don't want him.

They have made all these things public by letting them leak. None of this drama should have come out at all.

 

[WeDislikeEich]

I would not be so sure this is true.

Taylor Hall was traded by Peter Chairelli who showed with the Seguin trade (documented on 'Behind the B') that he is far from a skilled negotiator. He identified a player he wanted (Loui Eriksson) and packaged him in a deal that sent Seguin out of Boston. He specifically sought out Loui Eriksson with seemingly little regard for the value of Seguin or the fact that he was trading Seguin when his value was at the absolute lowest.

I really wouldn't be surprised if that is what he did with Hall as well. He may have determined the market himself (because he was in love with a particular player), instead of taking time to feel out exactly how much he could get.

It was reported that Chiarelli offered Seguin to Buffalo first for Thomas Vanek (+ something else - Marcus cologne maybe? I can’t remember) and Darcy Regier turned him down because he felt Vanek was the more valuable player.
Makes sense Chiarelli would want Vanek, since he always seemed to play very well against Boston.


Also, it was reported that Chiarelli offered Hall to Buffalo for Ristolainen, but Tim Murray was unwilling at the time (since buffalo had nobody else to replace risto, or even anyone in the system to potentially replace him down the line).
I believe it was reported that Chiarelli offered Hall to numerous teams, too.

 

[417]

While i’d like to agree, they haven’t made anything public personnaly besides rumors.

But now theres rumor that bergevin, Molson, Julien won’t be attending his annual golf tournament, wich they always did. Thats realy odd even if you are trying to trade him, i get thos organization right now, it’s hella unprofessional, trying be play hard ball, its useless and makes a bad image.

So you must think the organization is responsible for leaking their own negotiations with Pacioretty?

While it's not impossible, what would be gained by doing this?

They've never done this before, this organization is notoriously tight lipped, but all of a sudden, they're revealing everything about Pacioretty?

Hmm...again, maybe you're right, but my own logic tells me that Pacioretty's outspoken and new agent Allen Walsh probably had something to do with that leak.

As for the golf tournament...maybe they aren't attending because they know he'll be traded by then? If so, is that not their prerogative?

 

[417]

I never said NHL GMs didn't know he was available. Of course they knew he was being shopped. We knew he was being shopped before July too. The rumors and reports that have come out this summer go way beyond "being shopped" and into "possibly permanently damaged relationship" territory. The Habs are only putting more pressure on themselves to trade him, and that affects their leverage.

The Habs have no acted any different than any other team who had a player heading into his last year as a UFA.

This is only a story because it's the Montreal Canadiens.

Did anyone make the same links with the Sabres and ROR? And there was a ton more that leaked out about their relationship (or lack there of) and yet, no one ever suggested the Sabres wouldn't get appropriate value for ROR.

Or what about the Ottawa Senators & Erik Karlsson...look at all the crap that's leaked out of Ottawa and their relationship with their superstar.

The Montreal Canadiens are allowed to shop Max Pacioretty, why is that frowned upon exactly? They aren't dragging him through the mud like the Sabres with ROR or the Avs with Duchene or the Canes with Skinner.

There's no difference.

They have made all these things public by letting them leak. None of this drama should have come out at all.

I suppose I understand your point, if you're of the opinion the Habs were responsible for leaking that story.

I can't for the life of me think of a good reason why they would though.

 

[Deficient Mode]

The lack of movement on the blueline is what killed Patches productivity last year in my opinion. He can get by with adequate centers which he’s proven throughout his career by our transition to the forwards was predictably atrocious.

I think they're related problems. It's harder to find a good passing outlet if you don't have support from the defensemen on the rush, or if the defensemen aren't more willing to take risks to support the play in the offensive zone than the Habs' d were this year.

 

[Deficient Mode]

The Habs have no acted any different than any other team who had a player heading into his last year as a UFA.

This is only a story because it's the Montreal Canadiens.

Did anyone make the same links with the Sabres and ROR? And there was a ton more that leaked out about their relationship (or lack there of) and yet, no one ever suggested the Sabres wouldn't get appropriate value for ROR.

Or what about the Ottawa Senators & Erik Karlsson...look at all the crap that's leaked out of Ottawa and their relationship with their superstar.

The Montreal Canadiens are allowed to shop Max Pacioretty, why is that frowned upon exactly? They aren't dragging him through the mud like the Sabres with ROR or the Avs with Duchene or the Canes with Skinner.

There's no difference.

Thanks for bringing up these examples. They all support my argument. RoR is another example like Skinner: a player who got a very poor return because the Sabres felt pressure to sell him before they'd have to pay his bonus, and because it was made public that his relationship with the team was strained.

Karlsson will almost certainly not receive a trade package anywhere near to in line with a player who has been clearly the best defenseman in the league the past 5 years because everyone knows how cheap and terrible the owner is.

Plenty has leaked about Pacioretty. Plenty that goes beyond "shopping the player." Details like this are a bigger story because it's the Habs, but it will have the same effect of lowering the return.