Canadian Division (Canada Cup) Part XI

[TheBeastCoast]

...But what if they fail, again, to meet these high expectations?

You keep trying? You don't trade Mitch Marner. Like really this is such a dumb argument anyways as it is entirely hypothetical and in this hypothetical world we don't even know what the reason the Leafs didn't win the North.

 

[waffledave]

It has to do with the sliding goalposts. It has nothing to do with how I feel about the team. It’s about how a team is told they are bad, play in a bad division, there results should come with an asterisk etc.

Oh but if you don’t make the finals it’s a choke job? At some point it’s just ridiculous.

To lose in the 1st or 2nd round after dominating the division consistently all year? Yes that's a choke. You going to pretend otherwise?

 

[MXD]

It has to do with the sliding goalposts. It has nothing to do with how I feel about the team. It’s about how a team is told they are bad, play in a bad division, there results should come with an asterisk etc.

Oh but if you don’t make the finals it’s a choke job? At some point it’s just ridiculous.

...Who's saying this? Someone serious I mean, not some random Rangers or Oilers HF User.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Nobody is getting "rid" of anyone. The idea is always to improve the team. If the Leafs fail again in the playoffs you have to consider that the team's core has a problem. If they can't get out the North then there's a serious problem.

Like I am half way in agreement with you. My expectations for this team are 3rd round or it is a major disappointment. I think any team with cup actual cup aspirations should have that mind set at the very least. Where I disagree is you saying the team will need to be "blown up" if they fall short of those expectations. Many many teams have fallen short of what is expected and the correct action has not and was not to blow the team up. You also then turn around and because I disagree with you thinking the team will need to blown up...that I am lowering my expectations for the team which quite frankly could not be further from the truth. They just do not go hand in hand.

 

[waffledave]

You seem hell bent on creating a narrative that any setback in the playoffs means they need to blow the team up.

Why?

Are we going in assuming they're going to suffer major injuries or something? What's the point in random hypotheticals like that? The whole team could get COVID and they'll end up getting spanked, sure. Are we trying to make pre-emptive excuses here? Sorry, I don't see the point in this exercise.

 

[WaitingForUser]

Oiler fans should not be so boastful IMO until they can prove they are not the McDavids. You were gifted the greatest player in the world - enjoy it.

Nurse is having an outstanding year second in goals by defenseman, Barrie is almost at 50 points Drai is second in points. Mike Smith is 17-6-5. The oilers are second only to the Avs in regulation wins and didn’t play an overtime game until 3/4 through the season. But it’s all McDavid right?

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Are we going in assuming they're going to suffer major injuries or something? What's the point in random hypotheticals like that? The whole team could get COVID and they'll end up getting spanked, sure. Are we trying to make pre-emptive excuses here? Sorry, I don't see the point in this exercise.

Yet you see the point in asking about a hypothetical loss and the consequences despite not knowing what caused the loss?

I think we can all see the point of your little thought experiment.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Are we going in assuming they're going to suffer major injuries or something? What's the point in random hypotheticals like that? The whole team could get COVID and they'll end up getting spanked, sure. Are we trying to make pre-emptive excuses here? Sorry, I don't see the point in this exercise.

I mean you are pre emptively saying the team will need to blow up if they lose. You literally started the exercise.

 

[sharks9]

Not really, there's too many factors outside of your control. Do you blow a team up if you suffer key injuries? The goal posts just keep moving, at the start of the season we were told we wouldn't win the division. When we started to dominate the division and didn't lose first place the narrative switched to the North is bad and Toronto will get swept once they get out of it. Now it's unless they reach the cup final they need to blow up the team? At some point it just becomes ridiculous.

I'm not sure why some Leafs fans act like they weren't the overwhelming choice to win the division.

You'll never get unanimous picks from every writer because it's hockey and who knows what can happen, but the Leafs were picked by most to win.

 

[winnipegger]

If McDavid scores 2 or 3 PPG like he's doing now the Oilers could make a run. It's just incredible. Clearly the best talent since Mario.

 

[waffledave]

Like I am half way in agreement with you. My expectations for this team are 3rd round or it is a major disappointment. I think any team with cup actual cup aspirations should have that mind set at the very least. Where I disagree is you saying the team will need to be "blown up" if they fall short of those expectations. Many many teams have fallen short of what is expected and the correct action has not and was not to blow the team up. You also then turn around and because I disagree with you thinking the team will need to blown up...that I am lowering my expectations for the team which quite frankly could not be further from the two. They just do not go hand in hand.

If they fail to meet expectations, what do you do? You can't come back next year with the same team and hope things will be better. Nobody is saying trade Matthews and Marner, but if you trade a guy like Marner for say, a guy like Makar, you have to figure that's something to consider. When I say blow up the core, I'm not saying trade everyone away and give up. I'm saying shake things up by moving a major piece that hasn't met expectations for an equivalent major piece that will hopefully address a need.

I never even mentioned any players in particular in my post.

 

[waffledave]

Yet you see the point in asking about a hypothetical loss and the consequences despite not knowing what caused the loss?

I think we can all see the point of your little thought experiment.

Who goes into the playoffs already prepping excuses for why they lost? This is so confusing to me. Do you need things clarified?

Ok, here we go. My initial question was assuming no major injuries, no illness, no asteroid falling on the arena, no kidnappings, none of that. Just straight up the team fails to deliver.

Does this help?

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Who goes into the playoffs already prepping excuses for why they lost? This is so confusing to me. Do you need things clarified?

Ok, here we go. My initial question was assuming no major injuries, no illness, no asteroid falling on the arena, no kidnappings, none of that. Just straight up the team fails to deliver.

Does this help?

Who goes into the playoffs asking if you need to blow the team up if they don’t make the final?

 

[waffledave]

I mean you are pre emptively saying the team will need to blow up if they lose. You literally started the exercise.

Do you always ask people to cover every hypothetical scenario in a debate? I don't assume that injuries will happen. I actually assume that they won't.

 

[waffledave]

Who goes into the playoffs asking if you need to blow the team up if they don’t make the final?

Generally, someone who has high expectations for a team. Can you go back and answer my question now?

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Generally, someone who has high expectations for a team. Can you go back and answer my question now?

It’s a stupid question, so no. I won’t determine what the correct course of action is until the games are actually played. Something I suspect most coaches and GM’s do as well.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

If they fail to meet expectations, what do you do? You can't come back next year with the same team and hope things will be better. Nobody is saying trade Matthews and Marner, but if you trade a guy like Marner for say, a guy like Makar, you have to figure that's something to consider. When I say blow up the core, I'm not saying trade everyone away and give up. I'm saying shake things up by moving a major piece that hasn't met expectations for an equivalent major piece that will hopefully address a need.

I never even mentioned any players in particular in my post.

I mean at the end of the day it is kind of a pointless conversation right now. The why matters if you are talking about something like trading Mitch Marner. I have my doubts the Avalanche will be making Makar available for a trade anytime soon either way. Like I said earlier how many years did the Caps fall short of expectations losing in the 1st or 2nd round of the playoffs? Would the correct action have been to give up on the core? Or do you keep trying to fill in around it and find the right combination from outside the core. The only core piece I can realistically see being in jeopardy is Rielly if he has a really bad playoffs along with him being a free agent after next season.

 

[hockeyes]

I never pretended any of this, what are you even going on about?

You know we can go back and look at the past few pages in this thread right? I really hope this isn't a serious reply [mod].

 

[bossram]

If they fail to meet expectations, what do you do? You can't come back next year with the same team and hope things will be better. Nobody is saying trade Matthews and Marner, but if you trade a guy like Marner for say, a guy like Makar, you have to figure that's something to consider. When I say blow up the core, I'm not saying trade everyone away and give up. I'm saying shake things up by moving a major piece that hasn't met expectations for an equivalent major piece that will hopefully address a need.

I never even mentioned any players in particular in my post.

That kind of trade just isn't going to be available though - and Marner's AAV would make any similar move very difficult for the acquiring team. I mean, if they disappoint, maybe you move Rielly but then are still left with a gaping hole on defense.

The Leafs have a talented core. Like it or not, this is likely the roster they're going with for the next 2-3 years. Even if they disappoint in the playoffs, there won't be a blow-up. It'll be like Washington, St. Louis, or even Tampa. Just keep going for it, keep the core intact, make some good tweaks around the edges, and hopefully you make a breakthrough. Hockey is a big crapshoot.

 

[Zybalto]

That kind of trade just isn't going to be available though - and Marner's AAV would make any similar move very difficult for the acquiring team. I mean, if they disappoint, maybe you move Rielly but then are still left with a gaping hole on defense.

The Leafs have a talented core. Like it or not, this is likely the roster they're going with for the next 2-3 years. Even if they disappoint in the playoffs, there won't be a blow-up. It'll be like Washington, St. Louis, or even Tampa. Just keep going for it, keep the core intact, make some good tweaks around the edges, and hopefully you make a breakthrough. Hockey is a big crapshoot.

It's the smart move for sure. Could you imagine if the Caps blew up their team after years of disappointment and a "choking" label, especially after the 1st overall season?...and what won them the cup in the end? A considered washed up Holtby came off the bench to save them when they were down and out in the first round to lead them and the team responded. You never know whats going to happen in the playoffs so if you have a great core, don't touch it.

 

[sharks9]

That kind of trade just isn't going to be available though - and Marner's AAV would make any similar move very difficult for the acquiring team. I mean, if they disappoint, maybe you move Rielly but then are still left with a gaping hole on defense.

The Leafs have a talented core. Like it or not, this is likely the roster they're going with for the next 2-3 years. Even if they disappoint in the playoffs, there won't be a blow-up. It'll be like Washington, St. Louis, or even Tampa. Just keep going for it, keep the core intact, make some good tweaks around the edges, and hopefully you make a breakthrough. Hockey is a big crapshoot.

They've got 3 seasons after this of Matthews/Nylander/Muzzin/Brodie before their contracts expire so I'm sure Toronto will do their best to keep their core together and go all-in every year until then. If they don't have a Cup by then, I wouldn't be surprised if they make some big changes.

 

[Heldig]

Nurse is having an outstanding year second in goals by defenseman, Barrie is almost at 50 points Drai is second in points. Mike Smith is 17-6-5. The oilers are second only to the Avs in regulation wins and didn’t play an overtime game until 3/4 through the season. But it’s all McDavid right?

McDavid has been in on almost 57% of ALL goals the Oilers have scored. The fact the ice is tilted every time McDavid is on the ice means yes, it is mostly McDavid.

 

[WaitingForUser]

McDavid has been in on almost 57% of ALL goals the Oilers have scored. The fact the ice is tilted every time McDavid is on the ice means yes, it is mostly McDavid.

Drai has only played like 11 games on the same line but has 71 points so what is your answer for that one?

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Drai has only played like 11 games on the same line but has 71 points so what is your answer for that one?

How does that take away from the true fact that McDavid is the Oilers offense. For consideration players 3 and 4 in the point race account for only 37% of their teams total. McDavid's number is a huge outlier. It's impressive but half of the teams goals are happening when McDavid gets a point. That should be a concern to any team.

 

[WaitingForUser]

How does that take away from the true fact that McDavid is the Oilers offense. For consideration players 3 and 4 in the point race account for only 37% of their teams total. McDavid's number is a huge outlier. It's impressive but half of the teams goals are happening when McDavid gets a point. That should be a concern to any team.

Because of his team mate who has played over 80 % on his own line this year has 71 points it is evidence that it’s not all McDavid.