Canada's pandemic prep part 2 [MOD Note in Post #327]

[DuklaNation]

For those interested, this link provides detail of cases and deaths by LTC in Ontario. It shows once the virus has entered that population it tends to escalate rapidly. Differences between LTCs are startling to say the least. Resident cases to co-respond to staff cases but you can't tell when they contracted the virus. Who knows what protocols were followed but it looks obvious that some did better than others.

https://www.ontario.ca/page/how-ontario-is-responding-covid-19#section-1

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Trinity bellwoods park today in Toronto. Lol
*Found it on reddit and also found a cp24 video about it.

"Culling of the herd"

 

[KnockHobbler]

I saw someone wearing a mask but no helmet while on a bike. I guess that’s better than no mask ayyy

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

"Culling of the herd"

if those were the people who got the sickest then I would tend to agree with you, but, for now thats not the case

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

The behaviour going on in Ontario right now is disgusting... I am in shock what I am reading and hearing.. parks jam packed and people pissing and crapping in people's yards and other public places. Get a life

What a bunch of selfish idiots.

‘SHOCKED:’ Ford outraged as thousands converge on Toronto park

Thanks for continuing to screw this for everyone and risk getting more and more people sick.

Thank god I'm on the other side of the country where we in BC are taking this extremely serious and making HUGE positive strides

 

[NetflixandPhil]

The behaviour going on in Ontario right now is disgusting... I am in shock what I am reading and hearing.. parks jam packed and people pissing and crapping in people's yards and other public places. Get a life

What a bunch of selfish idiots.

‘SHOCKED:’ Ford outraged as thousands converge on Toronto park

Thanks for continuing to screw this for everyone and risk getting more and more people sick.

Thank god I'm on the other side of the country where we in BC are taking this extremely serious and making HUGE positive strides

Couple things:
-City officials made it well known that people in other parks were behaving appropriately (for the most part, impossible to have 100% of people follow the rules)

-Over 2/3 of new cases in Ontario are from Toronto and Peel while the rest of the province is still on a slow decline.

It seems unfair to label all of Ontario as irresponsible for the actions of a few. Instead of calling them disgusting, I suggest we educate them on how to safely use outdoor spaces in small groups.

I think that telling people to 'stay home' at this point is alot like abstinence only sex ed. It works initially to avoid worst case scenarios but then what's needed is safer, more sustainable solutions to allow for the perfect balance.

What the people in Trinity Bellwoods did wasn't right, that's for sure, but can we please stop attacking them for someone that cant be changed, and instead educate them instead?

 

[Pookie]

Couple things:
-City officials made it well known that people in other parks were behaving appropriately (for the most part, impossible to have 100% of people follow the rules)

-Over 2/3 of new cases in Ontario are from Toronto and Peel while the rest of the province is still on a slow decline.

It seems unfair to label all of Ontario as irresponsible for the actions of a few. Instead of calling them disgusting, I suggest we educate them on how to safely use outdoor spaces in small groups.

I think that telling people to 'stay home' at this point is alot like abstinence only sex ed. It works initially to avoid worst case scenarios but then what's needed is safer, more sustainable solutions to allow for the perfect balance.

What the people in Trinity Bellwoods did wasn't right, that's for sure, but can we please stop attacking them for someone that cant be changed, and instead educate them instead?

We can educate them. After they shut the park down.

A little public shaming wouldn’t hurt either.

It would be a career ending move for anyone there in close proximity to others who works in LTC or Health Care in general.

 

[Coaches Coroner]

The behaviour going on in Ontario right now is disgusting... I am in shock what I am reading and hearing.. parks jam packed and people pissing and crapping in people's yards and other public places. Get a life

What a bunch of selfish idiots.

‘SHOCKED:’ Ford outraged as thousands converge on Toronto park

Thanks for continuing to screw this for everyone and risk getting more and more people sick.

Thank god I'm on the other side of the country where we in BC are taking this extremely serious and making HUGE positive strides

Vancouver was in the news for similar reasons (packed parks etc.) just two weeks ago

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

Vancouver was in the news for similar reasons (packed parks etc.) just two weeks ago

But the numbers keep dropping and that other behaviour that was going on there wasnt happening in Vancouver. BC has anywhere around 8ish to 20ish cases a day now only... Ontario is spiking again with 400+ a day unfortunately.

I realize many people are giving up out of frustration but the peeing and crapping in people's yards just for fun is disgusting

 

[Coaches Coroner]

But the numbers keep dropping and that other behaviour that was going on there wasnt happening in Vancouver. BC has anywhere around 8ish to 20ish cases a day now only... Ontario is spiking again with 400+ a day unfortunately.

I realize many people are giving up out of frustration but the peeing and crapping in people's yards just for fun is disgusting

assuming that shitting on people's lawns is a province wide thing is a little silly. Conflating the largest city in the country with the largest province in the country as a whole.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

1. Young people have ALWAYS flouted the rules and felt invincible. It is why the # of road fatalities associated with speed or alcohol consumption is higher among the 18-30 crowd then the 38-50 crowd.

2. It was one part of one park in canadas biggest city. Not surprising that people couped up in condos and apt.'s would take any opportunity to go outside and enjoy the summer like weather

3. The messaging has become poor and sloppy. Mixed messages, poor delivery(looking at you David Williams) and inappropriate mediums have contributed to both confusion and apathy.

You wanna fix this?

-Get simple concise messaging and dont ever deviate from it from coast to coast to coast and from top down
-Use all mediums available including social media to get the message out.
-Mandate mask wearing in all stores and business's all the time by everyone. No shirt, no shoes, no mask no service, period.

If we choose on purpose to continue fumbling our way this will not go away whatsoever

 

[42]

1. Young people have ALWAYS flouted the rules and felt invincible. It is why the # of road fatalities associated with speed or alcohol consumption is higher among the 18-30 crowd then the 38-50 crowd.

2. It was one part of one park in canadas biggest city. Not surprising that people couped up in condos and apt.'s would take any opportunity to go outside and enjoy the summer like weather

3. The messaging has become poor and sloppy. Mixed messages, poor delivery(looking at you David Williams) and inappropriate mediums have contributed to both confusion and apathy.

You wanna fix this?

-Get simple concise messaging and dont ever deviate from it from coast to coast to coast and from top down
-Use all mediums available including social media to get the message out.
-Mandate mask wearing in all stores and business's all the time by everyone. No shirt, no shoes, no mask no service, period.

If we choose on purpose to continue fumbling our way this will not go away whatsoever

I don't understand why governments don't mandate masks. It has been shown that it greatly decreases the risk of spreading the virus. One would almost think that a law that enforces mask wearing will be less detrimental than lock-downs.

 

[Hawks4life]

We can thrown stones at common folks for not following the rules on Saturday but 3 times we can now attribute political figures breaking the "rules"...Trudeau, Ford and Tory. Sorry, let's look at them before we call people disgusting and other names. I think as a community we "hope" people do what we want them to, but we have no control over this and quite frankly for those downgrading the "rights activists" - check the courts because I guarantee when some of these start coming to court they will not lose.

Let's not think with so much emotion and let our own personal fears dictate how we view others. They made a choice, took a risk and have every RIGHT to do it. Would I, NOPE, but that is also, my choice.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

We can thrown stones at common folks for not following the rules on Saturday but 3 times we can now attribute political figures breaking the "rules"...Trudeau, Ford and Tory. Sorry, let's look at them before we call people disgusting and other names. I think as a community we "hope" people do what we want them to, but we have no control over this and quite frankly for those downgrading the "rights activists" - check the courts because I guarantee when some of these start coming to court they will not lose.

Let's not think with so much emotion and let our own personal fears dictate how we view others. They made a choice, took a risk and have every RIGHT to do it. Would I, NOPE, but that is also, my choice.

I agree with most of this but the "rights activists" part

That is just a career, a job like any other to those folks and expanding their personal wealth, and nothing more. Most of them simply and solely have a political agenda that's less about me and more about just themselves.

Personally I have no time for them.

You're right though we will see court cases.

 

[NetflixandPhil]

We can educate them. After they shut the park down.

A little public shaming wouldn’t hurt either.

It would be a career ending move for anyone there in close proximity to others who works in LTC or Health Care in general.

Closing the park would be the worst thing to do. These people need more space because we can't expect people to just stay inside at this point. You close the biggest park and suddenly it happens again at another even smaller park.

 

[Hawks4life]

I agree with most of this but the "rights activists" part

That is just a career, a job like any other to those folks and expanding their personal wealth, and nothing more. Most of them simply and solely have a political agenda that's less about me and more about just themselves.

Personally I have no time for them.

You're right though we will see court cases.

So, whether we agree or disagree, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms has been violated here and can be proven (Newfoundland has the first case). I don't agree, but it doesn't matter because there are many parts of the law people will disagree with, fortunately, courts will interpret them for us and we will have precedent. My point was, it is invalid to disregard people who feel this way because by the letter of the law, they are right and you are wrong. Moral compass does not dictate someone being right or wrong if we want concrete facts.

It is upsetting to see people being shamed for their rights in Canada, is this a time to be exercising them? who knows, I won't be because I think that we are reacting to the hand being dealt, but will I ridicule and shame them because I don't agree, certainly not. We aren't holier than thou regardless of what camp we sit in, so people need to mind their own business.

 

[Pookie]

Closing the park would be the worst thing to do. These people need more space because we can't expect people to just stay inside at this point. You close the biggest park and suddenly it happens again at another even smaller park.

Well it’s sort of like that kid in school who wouldn’t follow the rules.

If I have to say it again, there will be no Floor Hockey.

So Mark acts out. No floor hockey.

All eyes go on Mark and Mark stops acting out.

Mark was a jerk. He was probably at the beach.

 

[Pookie]

So, whether we agree or disagree, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms has been violated here and can be proven (Newfoundland has the first case). I don't agree, but it doesn't matter because there are many parts of the law people will disagree with, fortunately, courts will interpret them for us and we will have precedent. My point was, it is invalid to disregard people who feel this way because by the letter of the law, they are right and you are wrong. Moral compass does not dictate someone being right or wrong if we want concrete facts.

It is upsetting to see people being shamed for their rights in Canada, is this a time to be exercising them? who knows, I won't be because I think that we are reacting to the hand being dealt, but will I ridicule and shame them because I don't agree, certainly not. We aren't holier than thou regardless of what camp we sit in, so people need to mind their own business.

A bogus court challenge on some kind of “rights infringement” aside... it would be an extremely libertarian society that would allow free movement to override health and safety interests.

Just think of the fun though.

It’s my right to drive on whatever side of the road I feel like.

Those folks are being shamed because they should feel shame for being so ignorant.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Canada doesn't have stay at home orders but provinces can issue public health orders.

There have been a small handful of people who were required to self-isolate under Saskatchewan's P.H.O. that didn't and they were thrown in a designated quarantine section at the province's jail for women until they were free of symptoms.

 

[Hawks4life]

A bogus court challenge on some kind of “rights infringement” aside... it would be an extremely libertarian society that would allow free movement to override health and safety interests.

Just think of the fun though.

It’s my right to drive on whatever side of the road I feel like.

Those folks are being shamed because they should feel shame for being so ignorant.

A bogus court challenge that many lawyers have deemed valid and destined to win? I am no lawyer but I will certainly take the word of experts (kind of the same way we have been with medical experts). Your opinion seems to be emotionally charged and your comparison of road LAWS are so far fetched it's hard to no where to start. There is no law mandating stay at home orders, limits to inter-provincial travel and other various things people believe we should be following. The power is in the hands of the individual, meanwhile roads are patrolled by law enforcement, why? because its the law. Again this has no debate about who is right or wrong, but downgrading its validity just serves you to look close minded and as far gone as the other side of the spectrum.

 

[Pilky01]

Those people in the park are so stupid! I am absolutely outraged!

When I was in my twenties and a global pandemic causing worldwide lockdowns started happening I had the good sense to listen to my government and public health officials and not see my friends or even really leave my house for 18 months....uphill.....both ways!

Kids these days don't know how good they have it!

 

[Pookie]

A bogus court challenge that many lawyers have deemed valid and destined to win? I am no lawyer but I will certainly take the word of experts (kind of the same way we have been with medical experts). Your opinion seems to be emotionally charged and your comparison of road LAWS are so far fetched it's hard to no where to start. There is no law mandating stay at home orders, limits to inter-provincial travel and other various things people believe we should be following. The power is in the hands of the individual, meanwhile roads are patrolled by law enforcement, why? because its the law. Again this has no debate about who is right or wrong, but downgrading its validity just serves you to look close minded and as far gone as the other side of the spectrum.

My argument isn't emotional.

There is a legitimate challenge about whether the Feds or the Province have the ability to set health policy and whether the Quarantine Act applies to "self isolation." Those types of constitutional challenges are not bogus and help establish the framework for the democracy.

We can find legal scholars on both sides.

However, that's not what I read into your post.

It sounded more like discourse around the concept of "you can't boss me around." I have a right to go where I want, not wear a mask, and all that other type of BS.

In those cases, a driving example is an excellent illustrator. I guess we could argue we can drive wherever we want. But we don't have that "right."

We relinquish that "right" when we drive and consent to being bound by laws that protect the common good.

In COVID times, we have requirements for people to distance. Requiring businesses to operate within the bounds of evidence based health practices that the Provinces/Feds have enacted in order to protect the common good is the same context.

You cannot operate a business safely without distancing and sanitation measures in place. If you cannot... or choose not to... you cannot operate.

It's that simple.

If you cannot go to a park without distancing yourself... you are subject to fine and/or imprisonment as established in the Quarantine Act.

People can choose to be jackwads but they don't have an unequivocal "right" to put other people at risk.

 

[Hawks4life]

My argument isn't emotional.

There is a legitimate challenge about whether the Feds or the Province have the ability to set health policy and whether the Quarantine Act applies to "self isolation." Those types of constitutional challenges are not bogus and help establish the framework for the democracy.

We can find legal scholars on both sides.

However, that's not what I read into your post.

It sounded more like discourse around the concept of "you can't boss me around." I have a right to go where I want, not wear a mask, and all that other type of BS.

In those cases, a driving example is an excellent illustrator. I guess we could argue we can drive wherever we want. But we don't have that "right."

We relinquish that "right" when we drive and consent to being bound by laws that protect the common good.

In COVID times, we have requirements for people to distance. Requiring businesses to operate within the bounds of evidence based health practices that the Provinces/Feds have enacted in order to protect the common good is the same context.

You cannot operate a business safely without distancing and sanitation measures in place. If you cannot... or choose not to... you cannot operate.

It's that simple.

If you cannot go to a park without distancing yourself... you are subject to fine and/or imprisonment as established in the Quarantine Act.

People can choose to be jackwads but they don't have an unequivocal "right" to put other people at risk.

So then you read my post incorrectly. Charter of Rights and Freedoms is being challenged in the courts in the Province of Newfoundland because of the Government not allowing a woman to attend her mothers funeral due to inter-provincial travel. Our right to mobilize is legitimate and many law experts have said that the courts have no choice but to rule in the favor of the individual. This will not be the first case either. This has nothing to do with our opinions over masks and such, THOSE ARE NOT LAWS....its an invalid argument. I can leave my home and enter anywhere I want without a legal obligation to wear a mask....might be a company policy which is FAR DIFFERENT than a law. In Canada, we don't have a law to people distance, again this is not a law, the legislation does not apply with how you interpreted it, otherwise words like "recommended" would not be use. Again, this is not a morale argument, in essence i agree with you 100% that as humans, ethically, we should be taking all precautions to protect other humans but don't misconstrue a choice for a law.

 

[Pookie]

So then you read my post incorrectly. Charter of Rights and Freedoms is being challenged in the courts in the Province of Newfoundland because of the Government not allowing a woman to attend her mothers funeral due to inter-provincial travel. Our right to mobilize is legitimate and many law experts have said that the courts have no choice but to rule in the favor of the individual. This will not be the first case either. This has nothing to do with our opinions over masks and such, THOSE ARE NOT LAWS....its an invalid argument. I can leave my home and enter anywhere I want without a legal obligation to wear a mask....might be a company policy which is FAR DIFFERENT than a law. In Canada, we don't have a law to people distance, again this is not a law, the legislation does not apply with how you interpreted it, otherwise words like "recommended" would not be use. Again, this is not a morale argument, in essence i agree with you 100% that as humans, ethically, we should be taking all precautions to protect other humans but don't misconstrue a choice for a law.

The court case in NFLD is 2 fold.

1. Does a province have a right to restrict travel across provincial borders OR is this a federal responsibility?

Federal government clearly has the ability to do so. The question is simply whose call is it.

2. Is this restriction reasonable in light of other options specific to this pandemic?

Here, they have to demonstrate that this is necessary AND the least restrictive of the alternatives.

For example, we could ban travel outside the home but instead we just limited access with the Province.

NLFD’s main challenge is that the woman requested an exemption and offered to self quarantine for 14 days. They denied the request, and then accepted it.

That’s the basis of her specific case.

This is NOT about everyone’s right to travel freely across the country in a pandemic. This power is clearly granted to government under our laws.

It’s about who makes the call AND was her request for an exemption reasonable in this case.

 

[Hawks4life]

The court case in NFLD is 2 fold.

1. Does a province have a right to restrict travel across provincial borders OR is this a federal responsibility?

Federal government clearly has the ability to do so. The question is simply whose call is it.

2. Is this restriction reasonable in light of other options specific to this pandemic?

Here, they have to demonstrate that this is necessary AND the least restrictive of the alternatives.

For example, we could ban travel outside the home but instead we just limited access with the Province.

NLFD’s main challenge is that the woman requested an exemption and offered to self quarantine for 14 days. They denied the request, and then accepted it.

That’s the basis of her specific case.

This is NOT about everyone’s right to travel freely across the country in a pandemic. This power is clearly granted to government under our laws.

It’s about who makes the call AND was her request for an exemption reasonable in this case.

Once again, this isn't needed to convince me..but you are far to quick to dismiss this line of thinking and give the government far to much power then they have currently invoked. Under the Charter they have the right to emergency measures but they have not implemented their powers and have only stated recommendations, they have misplayed their hand and will find themselves on the losing end of many court cases to follow. Your post is not incorrect if the proper measures are in place and the fact there is any question over jurisdiction and "who makes the call" is exactly why there is a case to begin with here. This isn't a matter of opinion or semantics, it is a matter of law and the LETTER OF THE RULE - to which the use of soft protocols is worse than just using the full extent of their power. I am no advocate for the people, in fact I am quite opposite and feel people are really showing their entitlement through this process, however, I will not ignore facts and valid counter arguments when they come my way which is what one side of the spectrum seems to be doing by verbally thrashing anyone with an alternate opinion of their right to carry on with life.