Canada's defense

[Kshahdoo]

Is it just me, or Canada's defense's future doesn't look very bright? Weber and Keith are declining. Doughty, Pietrangelo and Subban are still at their prime, but for how long? And where are young guys, who'll come and substitute them? If we take young defensemen, people are talking about the most, they all are American, Sweden, even Russian, and not a lot of Canadian.

At the next Olympics (I hope, NHLers will play in China) Canada's defense will still be good, but what about the next World Cup (I hope, it'll happen) in 6 years?

Click to read more...

 

[JackSlater]

It's been much discussed but yes, Canada's group of young defencemen isn't inspiring. The generation following Doghty/Pietrangelo/Subban just wasn't that good. Defencemen usually take longer to develop than forwards do, but by the time a defenceman is in his early 20s you can usually tell. By sheer numbers Canada will probably have a top defenceman or two come seemingly out of nowhere (Parayko for instance) but this group is far from Canada's best historically.

 

[Critical13]

I don't think it's that bad.

Elite:

• Burns
• Doughty
• Subban
• Pietrangelo

Up and comers:

• Barrie
• Dumba
• Hamilton
• Rielly
• Manson
• Parayko

Often overlooked:

• Giordano
• Ellis
• Monyour
• Spurgeon
• Ekblad

There's a lot of guys on that list that are elite now, have the potential to be elite, or at at very least, high end top pairing defencemen in the NHL.

The golden age of having 6 of the top 10 dmen might be passing, but I am not worried.

 

[DDRhockey]

What happended with chabot?

 

[LeProspector]

What happended with chabot?

Nothing, he had a fantastic rookie season for Ottawa, he's just often overlooked.

 

[DDRhockey]

Nothing, he had a fantastic rookie season for Ottawa, he's just often overlooked.

Fantastic is probably stretching it

 

[LeProspector]

Fantastic is probably stretching it

25 points in 60 games as a rookie playing in all situations and looking comfortable out there. He was Ottawa's 2nd best defenceman all season.

 

[cg98]

The past few drafts havent pumped out any Norris calibre Canadian defensemen prospects. However this years draft looks quite good for Canadian defensemen with Bouchard, Dobson, and Smith spearheading the class. Bowen Byram will undoubtedly challenge for top-3 or top-5 in next years draft and he looks like a promising NHL d-man prospect.

 

[ottawa]

25 points in 60 games as a rookie playing in all situations and looking comfortable out there. He was Ottawa's 2nd best defenceman all season.

He didn't have much to compete with after Karlsson though...so being Ottawa's 2nd best defenseman isn't exactly an accomplishment

 

[Peiskos]

Canada's defence is more than sufficient moving forward.

 

[RR10]

I don't think it's that bad.

Elite:

• Burns
• Doughty
• Subban
• Pietrangelo

• One issue is that all 4 are RDs.

 

[My3Sons]

Playing defense in the NHL is changing. Teams are still trying to balance mobility and skill with defending and physical play. Give it a few more years and the blueprint will make itself more apparent. I can’t imagine that Canada won’t develop six top defenders over the next five or so years.

 

[McFlash97]

Canada's backend looks weak compared to USA and Sweden. The coming years will be a tough go for Team Canada. Not many Stud superstar type types for the foreseeable future.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Canada's defence is more than sufficient moving forward.

Although... if D shifts toward "sufficient" in a relative sense, and G already did... and the last draft maybe the top 6 or 7 prospects were Not Canadian... it's not exactly a reassuring trend for HC...

 

[Peiskos]

Although... if D shifts toward "sufficient" in a relative sense, and G already did... and the last draft maybe the top 6 or 7 prospects were Not Canadian... it's not exactly a reassuring trend for HC...

2 Canadians went in the top 10.
2 Swedes went in the top 10.
2 Americans went in the top 10.
2 Russians went in the top 10.
1 Finn went in the top 10.
1 Czech went in the top 10.

The above is for all positions. If you're going to claim that the top 6 or 7 prospects were not Canadian in a criticizing manner you must first look at the facts and claim the same thing for everyone else.

With regards to D, Canadian defenders were drafted more than any other nationality in the first round with 6 selections.

Bouchard (10)
Dobson (12)
Smith (17)
Merkley (21)
Bernard-Docker (26)
Beaudin (27)

Next was Sweden with 5 selections.

Dahlin (1)
Boqvist (8)
Johansson (24)
Lundkvist (28)
Sandin (29)

Just 2 American defenders were taken in the first round.

Hughes (7)
Miller (22)

1 Russian was taken

Alexeyev (31)

Lastly, 0 Finnish defenders were taken at all, nor were any Czech defenders taken.

Like I was saying, Canada's D will be more than sufficient moving forward as we are quite clearly in very fine shape compared to everyone.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

2 Canadians went in the top 10.
2 Swedes went in the top 10.
2 Americans went in the top 10.
2 Russians went in the top 10.
1 Finn went in the top 10.
1 Czech went in the top 10.

The above is for all positions. If you're going to claim that the top 6 or 7 prospects were not Canadian in a criticizing manner you must first look at the facts and claim the same thing for everyone else.

With regards to D, Canadian defenders were drafted more than any other nationality in the first round with 6 selections.

Bouchard (10)
Dobson (12)
Smith (17)
Merkley (21)
Bernard-Docker (26)
Beaudin (27)

Next was Sweden with 5 selections.

Dahlin (1)
Boqvist (8)
Johansson (24)
Lundkvist (28)
Sandin (29)

Just 2 American defenders were taken in the first round.

Hughes (7)
Miller (22)

1 Russian was taken

Alexeyev (31)

Lastly, 0 Finnish defenders were taken at all, nor were any Czech defenders taken.

Like I was saying, Canada's D will be more than sufficient moving forward as we are quite clearly in very fine shape compared to everyone.

But that is fine if your objective is to be on approximately even footing with the other top 6 or so nations in the hockey world. What did things look like in previous decades? How did Canada establish a position as a "favorite" in previous years? And is that no longer the objective? Fine, if so. If you are content finishing 3rd on average, or winning every once in a while, while everybody else takes their turn.

 

[Siludin]

Not concerned whatsoever about Canada's defense.
Ekblad not even mentioned in this topic? He just won a World Championship with Canada along with Parayko and Pulock.

 

[Siludin]

But that is fine if your objective is to be on approximately even footing with the other top 6 or so nations in the hockey world. What did things look like in previous decades? How did Canada establish a position as a "favorite" in previous years? And is that no longer the objective? Fine, if so. If you are content finishing 3rd on average, or winning every once in a while, while everybody else takes their turn.

Canada is one of the few countries where hockey is the de facto "most popular" sport. Don't forget that ice hockey is still an afterthought in the world. Go to Britain and mention hockey and they think you are talking about field hockey. My young family in Italy (like under age 10) had never seen or even heard of ice hockey (much like I hadn't heard of Netball until a couple of years ago)

Even in Sweden soccer is more popular. In the USA soccer is not a favourite. Finland maybe? In Russia soccer dominates too.

What I am trying to say is there is only so much you can "push" and invest in a sport before you get to the precipices of incremental improvement. If Canada is ordinally "ahead" of other nations, it's just by a smaller percentage, because the game is more refined now than it has ever been. It was a beer league until the 1990s.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Canada is one of the few countries where hockey is the de facto "most popular" sport. Don't forget that ice hockey is still an afterthought in the world. Go to Britain and mention hockey and they think you are talking about field hockey. My young family in Italy (like under age 10) had never seen or even heard of ice hockey (much like I hadn't heard of Netball until a couple of years ago)

Even in Sweden soccer is more popular. In the USA soccer is not a favourite. Finland maybe? In Russia soccer dominates too.

What I am trying to say is there is only so much you can "push" and invest in a sport before you get to the precipices of incremental improvement. If Canada is ordinally "ahead" of other nations, it's just by a smaller percentage, because the game is more refined now than it has ever been. It was a beer league until the 1990s.

Exactly. When I lived in Houston I would hardly even know hockey existed, never mind going even further abroad. It makes total sense that Canada dominated in past generations. But now folks are content to just be part of the pack? Ok, if so. Great that other countries have closed the gap and everything is more competitive. This isn't a thread about all the underlying reasons behind that of course.

 

[Peiskos]

But that is fine if your objective is to be on approximately even footing with the other top 6 or so nations in the hockey world. What did things look like in previous decades? How did Canada establish a position as a "favorite" in previous years? And is that no longer the objective? Fine, if so. If you are content finishing 3rd on average, or winning every once in a while, while everybody else takes their turn.

Hmm 7 Canadian defenders were take in the first round of the 2008 NHL draft...

10 years later 6 Canadian defenders were taken in the first round of the 2018 NHL draft, looks pretty much the same to me.

6 Canadian defenders were taken in the first round of the 2007 NHL draft.

5 Canadian defenders were taken in the first round of the 2005 NHL draft.

5 Canadian defenders were taken in the first round of the 2004 NHL draft.

4 Canadian defenders were taken in the first round of the 2003 NHL draft.

Only 3 Canadian defenders went in the first round of the 2006 NHL draft.

JUST TWO, 2 Canadian defenders went in the first round of the 1999 NHL draft.

You were saying?

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Hmm 7 Canadian defenders were take in the first round of the 2008 NHL draft...

10 years later 6 Canadian defenders were taken in the first round of the 2018 NHL draft, looks pretty much the same to me.

6 Canadian defenders were taken in the first round of the 2007 NHL draft.

5 Canadian defenders were taken in the first round of the 2005 NHL draft.

5 Canadian defenders were taken in the first round of the 2004 NHL draft.

4 Canadian defenders were taken in the first round of the 2003 NHL draft.

Only 3 Canadian defenders went in the first round of the 2006 NHL draft.

JUST TWO, 2 Canadian defenders went in the first round of the 1999 NHL draft.

You were saying?

You did 1 decade there and cherry-picked 1999. Now go further. Break it up between the top 10 and then the whole 1st round. Correlate to Best On Best results back to 1972. Consider world class players outside the top draft picks... the draft is just one indicator, after all. I don't say that it tells the whole story. Tell me that Canada is on even footing today with where it has always ranked in the hockey world. Go for it!

 

[Peiskos]

You did 1 decade there and cherry-picked 1999. Now go further. Break it up between the top 10 and then the whole 1st round. Correlate to Best On Best results back to 1972. Consider world class players outside the top draft picks... the draft is just one indicator, after all. I don't say that it tells the whole story. Tell me that Canada is on even footing today with where it has always ranked in the hockey world. Go for it!

Lmao there isn't any point in doing that because I've already more than proven my point, and no I didn't cherry pick 1999 I just picked a random year, look I can show you 1995 too where 6 Canadians were taken, just as they were 23 years later in 2018, I've provided you more than enough examples dating back 20+ years yet you are still arguing the reality, look heres another one, just 3 Canadian defenders were taken in 1994.

Hell, lets go back to 1988 this is now 30 years ago, just 5 Canadian defenders went in the first round, am I cherry picking? hmm lets try 1989 just for jokes, 7 Canadian defenders went in the first round.

Canada having 6 defenders go in the 1st round of the 2018 NHL draft isn't low and it isn't high either, its normal, 4 Canadian defenders went in the first round in 2010.

I've more than proved my point here. Nothing is wrong with Canada's development of D, there never has been.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Lmao there isn't any point in doing that because I've already more than proven my point, and no I didn't cherry pick 1999 I just picked a random year, look I can show you 1995 too where 6 Canadians were taken, just as they were 23 years later in 2018, I've provided you more than enough examples dating back 20+ years yet you are still arguing the reality, look heres another one, just 3 Canadian defenders were taken in 1994.

Hell, lets go back to 1988 this is now 30 years ago, just 5 Canadian defenders went in the first round, am I cherry picking? hmm lets try 1989 just for jokes, 7 Canadian defenders went in the first round.

Canada having 6 defenders go in the 1st round of the 2018 NHL draft isn't low and it isn't high either, its normal, 4 Canadian defenders went in the first round in 2010.

I've more than proved my point here. Nothing is wrong with Canada's development of D, there never has been.

Fair enough. Your point is totally different than my point, but fair enough.

 

[Peiskos]

I'm going to date it back 30 years of Canadian defenders being taken in the 1st round that seems more than a sufficient sample size.

1988 - 5
1989 - 7
1990 - 5
1991 - 5
1992 - 4
1993 - 4
1994 - 3
1995 - 6
1996 - 10
1997 - 5
1998 - 5
1999 - 2
2000 - 0 yes zero
2001 - 4
2002 - 2
2003 - 4
2004 - 5
2005 - 5
2006 - 3
2007 - 6
2008 - 7
2009 - 5
2010 - 4
2011 - 7
2012 - 8
2013 - 5
2014 - 3
2015 - 2
2016 - 6
2017 - 3
2018 - 6

Seems to me like nothing has changed with regards to the amount of Canadian defenders being taken in the first round.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I'm going to date it back 30 years of Canadian defenders being taken in the 1st round that seems more than a sufficient sample size.

1988 - 5
1989 - 7
1990 - 5
1991 - 5
1992 - 4
1993 - 4
1994 - 3
1995 - 6
1996 - 10
1997 - 5
1998 - 5
1999 - 2
2000 - 0 yes zero
2001 - 4
2002 - 2
2003 - 4
2004 - 5
2005 - 5
2006 - 3
2007 - 6
2008 - 7
2009 - 5
2010 - 4
2011 - 7
2012 - 8
2013 - 5
2014 - 3
2015 - 2
2016 - 6
2017 - 3
2018 - 6

Seems to me like nothing has changed with regards to the amount of Canadian defenders being taken in the first round.

Ok, that's your angle for your point, but that is still too shallow to count as an analysis of whether Canada's relative defense quality is staying steady or declining. The number of 1st-round drafted defensemen is a mildly interesting starting point - interesting, but still too shallow to be meaningful. Now you need to factor in the quality of the players selected (NHL performance could be a metric), the draft position in the 1st as well, the length of the 1st round in each year, go past the 1st round too, and then correlate it all to international success. Etc. Maybe you will find that in fact, nothing has changed for Canada on the international stage in the past 30 years. I would be interested in reading that more complete analysis.

I'm sure HC is paying somebody to do all that (and more) of course. Because for very sure they are aware of a host of problems with the evolution of hockey in Canada over the past 30 years. But you could shadow their work and post it here if you want to score some points.