Canada wants to limit Americans playing in the CHL?

[Epsilon]

Actually it probably would stand up to a legal challenge. I don't necassarily agree, however, the CFL limits the number of Americans per team, so there is precedent for leagues taking this sort of action.

When the CFL expanded to the United States, they had to drop the limit on American players for the American teams. I'm almost certain it is illegal in the United States to place a quota limit on the number of Americans that can be employed by a US-based business.

 

[futurcorerock]

The NCAA does get some european talent. the biggest right now is Vanek.

yeah, but i'm talking on a bigger scale. However, that'd be impossible in some cases because of the Coach being so tied to find his prospects internationally as-is in the US and Canada

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Fine by me.

Would it be a great idea... not really sure. But I don't see it having that big of an impact in the CHL. Atleast in the OHL it wouldn't seem to have that big of an impact, there's a total of 8 Americans in the top 100 in scoring.

Including 2 goalies (of 32).

With three of those (at least at the time the WJC's started) in the top five (Schremp, O'Sullivan, and Ryan). I guess in the big scheme of things limiting CHL teams to one American wouldn't have a huge impact, but in the end, I think it would virtually eliminate Americans participating in the league.

 

[leafaholix*]

With three of those (at least at the time the WJC's started) in the top five (Schremp, O'Sullivan, and Ryan). I guess in the big scheme of things limiting CHL teams to one American wouldn't have a huge impact, but in the end, I think it would virtually limit Americans participating in the league.

I think it would limit the number of American role players... otherwise, it would still allow all the top American players to play in the leagues.

 

[Hasbro]

yeah, but i'm talking on a bigger scale. However, that'd be impossible in some cases because of the Coach being so tied to find his prospects internationally as-is in the US and Canada

It was a "complaint" circling around Denver's recruiting during the Serratore era and Gwozdecky's start that the team was euro heavy and dependent on European stars, like Laaksonen and Erik Anderson. We had about 6 spots taken up by euros.

Not only would it block the CHL out of role players, but also late bloomers.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I think it would limit the number of American role players... otherwise, it would still allow all the top American players to play in the leagues.

Why would they want to?

 

[borro]

Did anyone else read this Damien Cox article over on ESPN.com today? It's about Hockey Canada "thinking" about limiting the number of Americans playing in the CHL.

IMO, I think it would be bad for the CHL from the perspective that there are some very talented Americans such as Robbie Schremp and Matt Lashoff that the CHL would miss out on should they decide to make and impose the change. The CHL (I would assume) wants to get their hands on the very best players out there, regardless of where they come from, making it not only a prestigious developmental league for the NHL but also the level of competition would remain at its highest.

Anyone else have an opinion on this article?

Maybe American should limit the number of Canadiens allowed to play on American teams. After all it stunts our hockey player's growth. Maybe we should eliminate trade with Canada in beef because of mad cow. Or maybe, just maybe people ought to realize they are killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

 

[Leaf the Lucky]

Irregardless....its not USA star players that are going to get kicked out, its still going to be pluggers.

Still, I don't think this will go through as there are American franchises in the CHL and that just wouldn't make any sense unless they have an entirely different provision for Canadian teams.

 

[leafaholix*]

Why would they want to?

Same reason why they already are.

Ask Schremp, O'Sullivan, and Ryan.

 

[Funkymoses]

With the new ESPNU coming on board do you all think more kids will take the college route?

I don't think that will make any difference, at least not for a while. I'd think the main factor in the decisions of most kids is lifestyle. Do they want to be student-athletes or just athletes?

This proposal, if passed, wouldn't affect the Schremps or Ryans of the world, but it might affect a number of mid-level players. The NCAA teams it would help out would probably be the UMDs, Northern Michigans, and Cornells of the world. Good teams without the talent depth of the huge programs.

As a college fan I'm all for this Pejorative Slured legislation.

 

[em1ss]

Irregardless....its not USA star players that are going to get kicked out, its still going to be pluggers.

Let me get this right, no American players unless of course they are top liners and future draft picks. How many American "pluggers" are there in Canada? If there are so many why do the CHL teams have them on their teams? I mean the teams are a business, seems if there were better Canadian "pluggers" available they would sign them. This whole thing makes no sense and smacks of nationalistic prejudice. The bottom line is the teams are a business and they are signing the best available talent they can get their hands on. If the next Gretzky was in North Korea, someone would draft him hoping he could be smuggled out of the country.

 

[triggrman]

When the CFL expanded to the United States, they had to drop the limit on American players for the American teams. I'm almost certain it is illegal in the United States to place a quota limit on the number of Americans that can be employed by a US-based business.

It's illegal to hire or fire anyone based on nationality alone. ACLU would have a field day with this.

 

[crossxcheck]

It's illegal to hire or fire anyone based on nationality alone. ACLU would have a field day with this.

triggr's right on this one. zero chance of something like this happening in the US.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Same reason why they already are.

Ask Schremp, O'Sullivan, and Ryan.

My point is, if American players (star or otherwise) key in on the idea that the CHL will limit their number, it's likely the stream of players playing in the league would slow, and eventually dry up.

 

[leafaholix*]

My point is, if American players (star or otherwise) key in on the idea that the CHL will limit their number, it's likely the stream of players playing in the league would slow, and eventually dry up.

I disagree.

There will just be fewer American pluggers in the league. I'm sure Robbie Schremp could care less if the CHL limits the number of Americans as long as he knows he's capable of making any team.

 

[Macman]

It's illegal to hire or fire anyone based on nationality alone. ACLU would have a field day with this.

Then how do you explain the limits on the number of non-Americans in the Major Soccer League? I think it's four per team. What may not be allowed within the public at large doesn't necessarily hold in specialized areas like sport or the military, where for instance people have been discharged because of sexual orientation.

 

[RyanM]

I don't think many people understand the reasons for the American/Euro rule. It's not really to give Canadian kids a chance to play, it's to keep the CHL teams on an even playing field. I'll use the Q as an example:

If you're a fan of the Quebec Remparts your owner can go out and offer his unlimited financial resources to the absolute best American and European talent year after year. If you're a fan of the Rouyn-Noranda Huskies your owner can barely afford the basic player releases for the average European player. And after a couple years of this what happens is that you get some teams that can do no wrong because of their financial resources and are almost always at the top of the standings and other teams that are always at the bottom except for the odd year where they may contend. Quebec for example could afford to trade a 1st round pick for Mathieu Melanson last year ecause they knew they could get an American in round 2 or 3 who would be just as good as anyone picked with their 1st round pick.

I don't know how things are in Ontario or out West but in the Q a competitve unbalance is quickly developing where the "have" teams have too much room for error compared to the "have not" teams and attendance is very rapidly getting to the point in some of these markets that they won't be able to continue much longer.

 

[copperandblue]

I heard an interview with some honcho from the dub on this very thing. Hopefully someone will correct me if my memory is a tad off....

This whole thing is intended moreso as a pressure point on the NCAA.

The CHL and NCAA have butted heads for quite a while over the "Amateur VS Professional" debate. The honcho said that the Amateur vs Professional thing was apparently fabricated to deter Canadian kids from taking up NCAA spots. They didn't want players taking their shot in the CHL and the going over to the NCAA if it didn't pan out because they felt that based on talent, their rosters would end up being dominated by Canadian kids and therefore hurting the chances of US born players to play in the NCAA...or something to that effect.

The CHL is saying that this is nothing more than an artificial limitation on imports against Canadians.

Therefore the CHL is contending that with American born players taking up roster spots in the CHL, there are Canadian born players that are left out of their chance to develop. The CHL also maintains that one of the top mandates for all of their leagues is to enhance development and on that basis Canadian born players are/should be their priorities (I think most or all of the leagues have now limited European players based on this).

Soooo, the CHL is saying - if the US's top development leagues (NCAA) are limiting Canadian players then our top development leagues have the right to limit US born players on their roster, they want to protect the interest's of their own so to speak -

The NCAA says that they're not a development league but strictly an Amateur league and that the CHL is considered professional hockey so there isn't anything to discuss. However at the same time there is apparently some US jr leagues (or a league) that operates the same as the CHL leagues but their players are still elligible for NCAA programs.

And pissing match goes on....

As I said, I am going of memory so hopefully someone will clarify if I am off a bit but in general this thing is more about politics between the CHL and NCAA with the worst case scenario being that a few more Canadian born players get their shot at continuing their development.....

 

[Funkymoses]

Then how do you explain the limits on the number of non-Americans in the Major Soccer League? I think it's four per team. What may not be allowed within the public at large doesn't necessarily hold in specialized areas like sport or the military, where for instance people have been discharged because of sexual orientation.

There's a big difference between preventing people who are citizens of a different country from working (which every country does via immigration laws) and preventing people who are citizens of the US from working. There is absolutely zero chance that the US will permit US based CHL teams to restrict the number of americans.

 

[Funkymoses]

I don't think many people understand the reasons for the American/Euro rule. It's not really to give Canadian kids a chance to play, it's to keep the CHL teams on an even playing field.

That's an interesting point, but wouldn't imposing these restrictions unevenly create a competitive advantage for the American teams?

 

[Funkymoses]

copperandblue: I'm pretty sure you mean Hockey Canada is exerting pressure here, not the CHL. I bet the CHL thinks the fact that anyone who plays a CHL game is ineligible to play in the NCAA is great. They don't have to worry about defections like NCAA teams do... every year there are a few players who move from the NCAA to the CHL and no players who go the other way.

US junior leagues like the USHL or NAHL work with the NCAA to keep their players eligible. I believe this also goes for Canadian junior B leagues like the BCHL, which has become an important talent feeder for WCHA and CCHA teams.

I fail to see how this would put pressure on the NCAA. The net effect would be to keep a small number of CHL-bound kids in the US development system and eventually D1 hockey. And the number would be small... the article cited 340 USA kids playing in all of Canadian junior hockey, but I'm guessing that a majority of those kids are playing in Junior B leagues like the BCHL, looking to get NCAA scholarships. There might be 100 kids total who would be affected over their four years, or about 25 a year.

The idea that the NCAA is placing artificial restrictions on the number of Canadians in hockey is pretty ridiculous... 41% of the CCHA is Canadian. If 41% of a CHL league was American you'd be shooting anyone who tried to cross the border. The NCAA just perpetually overreacts and is generally stupid.

The net effect of this legislation will be to aid the NCAA in its arms race with the CHL. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[VOB]

You have to love Damian Cox and the way he rehashes old stories! This has been debated in great length at other Major A forums and even in the Canadian media. Dave Branch, the commisioner of the CHL finally waded in and said that the probability of excluding Americans is very remote as it would face tremendous resistance from virtually every CHL franchise.

What will pass and was not mentioned in Cox's article is the restriction of 16 year old players in Junior A and B hockey. All teams, including CHL ones, will only be allowed one 16 year old player and all U-16 year olds will be excluded from all Junior hockey.

Apparantly Hockey Canada wants to re-build its AAA Midget programs that have been hit hard by the massive defections of its top players to the Junior ranks.

 

[PEli*]

I don't see a problem with limiting teams to two or three Americans and one or two Euros. The problem with the CHL is that it's such a competitive league that there are a ton of fringe guys that might have made it and honed their skills enough to make the NHL.

The same can be said of the NCAA to a lesser degree. Limiting spots for Canadians in NCAA hockey is completely fair. I doubt any sensible person would deny points for either side here. Both leagues need to be represented by their countrymen by a large majority. The purpose of them is to make hockey players or solid citizens of the players.

This is all coming from a fan of a team which has never had problems bringing in the better imports or the decent American kids. So take it for what it's worth.

 

[copperandblue]

copperandblue: I'm pretty sure you mean Hockey Canada is exerting pressure here, not the CHL.

Yeah you could be right, in hindsight it may have been a guy from Hockey Canada doing the interview as opposed to a guy from the dub like I said.

I bet the CHL thinks the fact that anyone who plays a CHL game is ineligible to play in the NCAA is great. They don't have to worry about defections like NCAA teams do... every year there are a few players who move from the NCAA to the CHL and no players who go the other way.

I disagree on two fronts;

1) For every NCAA player that defects to the CHL, there is potential for a player who loses his spot to also have lost their opportunity to develop in the NCAA due to inelligibility.

2) I hope beyond hope that this doesn't turn into an American vs Canadian thing but I have to think that history has shown that players persuing the NHL have a greater chance (beit by exposure, surrounding talent, more credence to the league) to get drafted out of major jrs than out of the NCAA (although the NCAA does appear to be closing the gap somewhat), therefore there is likely less incentive for these star defectors to jump over to the NCAA. In general I think we are talking moreso about bottom 6 guys...the same ones who are on the bubble when the NCAA players choose to jump to the CHL.

US junior leagues like the USHL or NAHL work with the NCAA to keep their players eligible. I believe this also goes for Canadian junior B leagues like the BCHL, which has become an important talent feeder for WCHA and CCHA teams.

I can't speak with athority on this but the gist of what I recall is that Hockey Canada feels that a double standard is being applied...irregardless of the talent differences by the leagues in question.

I fail to see how this would put pressure on the NCAA. The net effect would be to keep a small number of CHL-bound kids in the US development system and eventually D1 hockey. And the number would be small... the article cited 340 USA kids playing in all of Canadian junior hockey, but I'm guessing that a majority of those kids are playing in Junior B leagues like the BCHL, looking to get NCAA scholarships. There might be 100 kids total who would be affected over their four years, or about 25 a year.

It's not clear to me where the pressure comes from either as I can't specifically recall but to make a guess I would think it ultimately comes from USA Hockey.

It kinda becomes a double edged sword. If Canadian teams are limited to the number of US kids and many of these kids are therefore looking to the NCAA for their exposure, there is still no guarantee that these kids would be high enough on the talent charts to take one of the import's spot's. (Just spit balling)

The other factor could be the education angle. Would these kids even qualify to play at many of these places? There has got to be somekind of educational standards that need to get met.

It would be interesting to see how those 340 kids are spread out in Canadian leagues.

The idea that the NCAA is placing artificial restrictions on the number of Canadians in hockey is pretty ridiculous... 41% of the CCHA is Canadian. If 41% of a CHL league was American you'd be shooting anyone who tried to cross the border. The NCAA just perpetually overreacts and is generally stupid.

But it comes down to talent. Again not trying to start a border issue but clearly in the past the depth of Canadian talent was enough to keep the import ratios low simply by competetive elimination.

So if there was a totally open roster policy in the NCAA you could potentially see that 41% rocket to above 60% without seeing the same thing happening with the Canadian teams and US born players.

Frankly I suspect that this whole thing stems from the fact that US kids are closing the gap on Canadian kids in terms of talent and Hockey Canada is nervous about the Canadian percentage in US schools staying static while the American percentage in Canada will continue to increase.

 

[Campino]

So if they do put a limit on U.S. born players on CHL hockey teams, does that mean that the Quebec Ramparts organization would have to fold due to the lack of players????????