Canada Summer Development Camp Feedback?

[gb701]

My only comment would be that the most amazing thing about this particular board is that (unlike the team boards) so many people have so much to say about players that they know so little about and have seen so seldom. I know that is partly the point, but I have to laugh when a guy from Vancouver Island suddenly thinks that he can not only point out the flaws in a prospects game, but can predict his future role in the NHL.

The only good thing about this thread is that it actually moved away from Crosby for awhile.

BTW - having watched Phaneuf in one hell of a lot of games (and practices), IMHO (and my opinion only) he has benefitted from the great combination that makes for a great prospect - he is big enough, strong enough, mean enough, ignorant enough and skilled enough to be good, but he is also now disciplined enough and has learned enough from Sutter to be great. I am looking forward to him making a real impact with the Flames far younger than most D prospects can hope to get a shift in the league these days. He is the real deal, folks - hyped or not.

 

[db23]

I wish you guys would READ THE POSTS before you go off on a self righteous tangent. I'm NOT from "Vancouver Island", I NEVER SAID that "Jackman spent more time in the infimary than on the ice", (that comment was about Volchenkov who has played a total of 74 regular season games in two seasons). Contrary to what you seem to want to believe, I watch a lot of hockey at every level. I could go on and on about the inaccuracies and outright falsehoods that are attributed.

Simply put, most very physical defensemen who look for big open ice hits tend to get hurt a lot. For one thing they can hurt themselves throwing the hits, for another all of the opposition players target them. With the new rules, defencemen are very vulnerable in their own zone. I'm not crazy about those type of players (of which it appears Phaneuf may be one) because their actions cause a lot of injuries and lead ot a lot of viciousness without being all that effective from a hockey point of view.

It is just raw meat served up for the Don Cherry goofballs and doens't do the game of hockey any good in the long run. Is the game better because players like Lindros, Lafontaine, Orr etc. were crippled by goons over the years? Is it better because it leads to incidents like Todd Bertuzzi and Steve Moore, McSorley and Brashear etc.? The big compaint is that here is too little respect shown by players for other players on the ice. Lining up a guy so that you hit him full speed in a vulnerable psoition with a Kevlar covered elbow or shoulder pad is not exactly showing respect for the other players health, well being, and MEANS OF EARNING A LIVING.

Often it falls on the players themselves to make sure that the headhunters are out of the lineup as much as possible so they have less chance of hurting a friend or teammate.

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Ummmm how off topic was that db23?

I notice you failed to address the fact that Phaneuf has a much higher skill level than Gauthier. You failed to address the fact that Phaneuf has better hockey sense and positioning. I guess you've given up that comparison because you realize it's flawed?

You watch players at various levels? Great. How many times have you seen Phaneuf live? Gauthier?

As for your latest tangent (trying to distract us from the fact you can't back up your prior arguments) nobody likes to see a players career ended. But unless they make it a non-contact sport the risk is always there. Players like Stevens are so good because they are hard to play against. Because they will punish you if you don't pay attention and keep your head up. Phaneuf is a hard player to play against. That's part of the reason he's such a good prospect. Most people who follow hockey would agree. You of course have somehow tried to twist it into a negative.

But yeah I guess you've given up attempting to defend your laughable Phaneuf-Gauthier comparison?

 

[moosefan]

I was a big fan of Gauthier when he was in junior. Everyone did think that Gauthier was going to be a potential norris candidate in his prime, he had everything Dion did in junior. He was even maybe a bigger hitter than Phaneuf, I remember watching the game against Russia and Gauthier was hitting everything in open ice, it was like an expo out there. Gauthier in junior was a devestating hitter (possibly the best in the CHL at the time), he has great skills at both ends of the ice and Phaneuf does as well, to me I think the Gauthier-Phaneuf compariosn stands as a good comparison as what they were like in junior. THing is I think Gauthier could have been better than what he is right now, I think Calgary does a bad job in developing their prospects and I don't really think they know how to get the most out of them, so I hope Phaneuf can be better than Gauthier but in junior they had comparable careers. Lets see what the next level brings

 

[Jovo Cop]

db23 ..there is a sport called figure skating ..its very pretty ..nice skating and pirouttes ,leaps and spins ,girls and boys can play and theres no big meanies waiting in the wings to knock you into next week .

I guess by your no hitting logic ..football would be much better sans the big hitters ..maybe the NFL players could wear flags instead of tackling ..or wear NERF pads and helmets that way no one gets hurt ..hey maybe your on to something here

 

[db23]

Ummmm how off topic was that db23?

I notice you failed to address the fact that Phaneuf has a much higher skill level than Gauthier. You failed to address the fact that Phaneuf has better hockey sense and positioning. I guess you've given up that comparison because you realize it's flawed?

You watch players at various levels? Great. How many times have you seen Phaneuf live? Gauthier?

As for your latest tangent (trying to distract us from the fact you can't back up your prior arguments) nobody likes to see a players career ended. But unless they make it a non-contact sport the risk is always there. Players like Stevens are so good because they are hard to play against. Because they will punish you if you don't pay attention and keep your head up. Phaneuf is a hard player to play against. That's part of the reason he's such a good prospect. Most people who follow hockey would agree. You of course have somehow tried to twist it into a negative.

But yeah I guess you've given up attempting to defend your laughable Phaneuf-Gauthier comparison?

It IS the topic lamebrain. Phaneuf is getting a lot of hype for running and sometimes injuring SMALLER SKILL PLAYERS. If you missed that your head has been even further up your butt than your comments indicate.

You have a problem because I "put too much empahsis on players accomplishments"? How stupid a comment is that?

Not enough empahsis on the clear and unbiased observations of someone named "Flames Draft Watcher"?

All the same comments were made about Gauthier a few years back after he scored ABOUT TWICE AS MANY POINTS IN LESS GAMES in the CHL than Phaneuf did last year. So that proves that Phaneuf is the more skilled player?

 

[Letang fan 58]

Settle down there, sonny. While he may turn out to be a very good NHL'r, beating up or crushing juniors with bodychecks, alot of whom are alot younger & smaller,is a whole different kettle of fish than doing the same to grown men, alot of whom are just as talented, big , strong & mean.
BTW, you should maybe take a peek at Marcments rep coming out of junior, who was thought of to be just as tough as Phaneuf is now, actually proved to be a pretty tough guy, & who was picked only marginally later.

phaneuf isnt thought to be as tough as the nhl heavyweights nor should he be......HE IS NOT A FIGHTER....NOR IS HE THERE TO BE A FIGHTER. comparing him to marchment is a joke. phaneuf has all around game ask anyone. and as for him being so much bigger and older that is a joke also.....had you been following the guy for more then the last year since he were drafted youd know hes been devastating players for years now much of whom were bigger and older then him.

 

[Letang fan 58]

All of the same things that are being said about Phaneuf now were said about Guathier 8 years ago in the season agfter he was drafted. Gauthier was much more dominating in junior that year than Phaneuf was this past season. Denis won the top CHL Defenceman award, scored about a point and half per game, dominated at the WJC, etc., etc. If you're a Calgary fan you should remember that.

phaneuf was the most dominating dman in the CHL last year by a mile and a half it was not even close. the fact that he didnt win the chl dman of the year award was a joke and solely based on points. Fact is that without phaneuf red deer last year was the same team as saskatoon with a better goalie. they were absolutely horrid on the offense and had the best defence in the WHL.....due to phaneuf.

 

[db23]

I was a big fan of Gauthier when he was in junior. Everyone did think that Gauthier was going to be a potential norris candidate in his prime, he had everything Dion did in junior. He was even maybe a bigger hitter than Phaneuf, I remember watching the game against Russia and Gauthier was hitting everything in open ice, it was like an expo out there. Gauthier in junior was a devestating hitter (possibly the best in the CHL at the time), he has great skills at both ends of the ice and Phaneuf does as well, to me I think the Gauthier-Phaneuf compariosn stands as a good comparison as what they were like in junior. THing is I think Gauthier could have been better than what he is right now, I think Calgary does a bad job in developing their prospects and I don't really think they know how to get the most out of them, so I hope Phaneuf can be better than Gauthier but in junior they had comparable careers. Lets see what the next level brings

This post is bang on. If you guys can't admit that Gauthier was as hyped when he was 19 as Phaneuf is now, you either have selective memories or you weren't old enough to read at the time.

 

[Letang fan 58]

On another note......Does anyone have any information on how Ryan Stone has been looking during the training camp so far? any ideas wether he has a real shot at the team.

 

[X-SHARKIE]

I think Phaneuf is maturing faster then other prospects and it's making people giddy about him to soon. Suter,Coburn,Thelen,Barker all have legit shots at being better or as good NHLers when it's said and done! But at the moment Phaneuf is the best defensman prospect in the league.... I also think he is one of the most mature physically,and mentally prospects...once Suter and others hit that stride...They might be the better players. Anywho.
IMO. Top prospects in the NHL would be.
1. Kari Lehtonen 2. Alexander Ovechkin (good year could surpass Lehtonen), 3. Nikolai Zherdev 4. Evgeni Malkin 5. Thomas Vanek 6. Dion Phaneuf ....then names like Parise,Michalek,Suter, Coburn, Carter, Stewart,Richards come to mind.

 

[Sammy*]

I was a big fan of Gauthier when he was in junior. Everyone did think that Gauthier was going to be a potential norris candidate in his prime, he had everything Dion did in junior. He was even maybe a bigger hitter than Phaneuf, I remember watching the game against Russia and Gauthier was hitting everything in open ice, it was like an expo out there. Gauthier in junior was a devestating hitter (possibly the best in the CHL at the time), he has great skills at both ends of the ice and Phaneuf does as well, to me I think the Gauthier-Phaneuf compariosn stands as a good comparison as what they were like in junior. THing is I think Gauthier could have been better than what he is right now, I think Calgary does a bad job in developing their prospects and I don't really think they know how to get the most out of them, so I hope Phaneuf can be better than Gauthier but in junior they had comparable careers. Lets see what the next level brings

Interesting. I would also bet that Marchment was the Phaneuf of his day.
IMO, its a joke how so many think a guy is a lock to be an impact player when so many who have been as hyped before never come close to been an impact player.
Man oh man, people sure have short memories.

 

[HuskyFlames]

I think Phaneuf is maturing faster then other prospects and it's making people giddy about him to soon. Suter,Coburn,Thelen,Barker all have legit shots at being better or as good NHLers when it's said and done! But at the moment Phaneuf is the best defensman prospect in the league.... I also think he is one of the most mature physically,and mentally prospects...once Suter and others hit that stride...They might be the better players. Anywho.
IMO. Top prospects in the NHL would be.
1. Kari Lehtonen 2. Alexander Ovechkin (good year could surpass Lehtonen), 3. Nikolai Zherdev 4. Evgeni Malkin 5. Thomas Vanek 6. Dion Phaneuf ....then names like Parise,Michalek,Suter, Coburn, Carter, Stewart,Richards come to mind.

How is Nikolai Zherdev a "NHL prospect" when he has played in the NHL for 57 games???

 

[Sammy*]

Phaneuf is better than Gauthier is RIGHT NOW.

With the greatest of respect, I would guess you are off your nut on this one. I dont think you have near enough regard for how big the leap is from juniors to the pros. My guess is that if you put Phaneuf out there in a regular season game, never mind the high tempo of a playoff game, the guy would be about the biggest turnstile around. Virtually every young (particularly a 19 year old), big d-man I have ever seen come into the NHL starts off looking like a young Giraffe against NHL'rs (remember Pronger, he looked like a joke out there as a rookie) .
In short, I dont think you have an appreciation for the difference for the NHL & the WHL.

 

[RyanM]

With the greatest of respect, I would guess you are off your nut on this one. I dont think you have near enough regard for how big the leap is from juniors to the pros. My guess is that if you put Phaneuf out there in a regular season game, never mind the high tempo of a playoff game, the guy would be about the biggest turnstile around. Virtually every young (particularly a 19 year old), big d-man I have ever seen come into the NHL starts off looking like a young Giraffe against NHL'rs (remember Pronger, he looked like a joke out there as a rookie) .
In short, I dont think you have an appreciation for the difference for the NHL & the WHL.

Agree, If the Flames thought Phaneuf was as good as some of the posters here do then he would of signed a contract and played in the playoffs when they were having injury problems. He's as awesome prospect, but there is no need to compare him to established NHL'rs at his age.

 

[ZombieMatt]

My only comment would be that the most amazing thing about this particular board is that (unlike the team boards) so many people have so much to say about players that they know so little about and have seen so seldom. I know that is partly the point, but I have to laugh when a guy from Vancouver Island suddenly thinks that he can not only point out the flaws in a prospects game, but can predict his future role in the NHL.

The only good thing about this thread is that it actually moved away from Crosby for awhile.

BTW - having watched Phaneuf in one hell of a lot of games (and practices), IMHO (and my opinion only) he has benefitted from the great combination that makes for a great prospect - he is big enough, strong enough, mean enough, ignorant enough and skilled enough to be good, but he is also now disciplined enough and has learned enough from Sutter to be great. I am looking forward to him making a real impact with the Flames far younger than most D prospects can hope to get a shift in the league these days. He is the real deal, folks - hyped or not.

I'm guessing that your remarks were directed towards me because I'm the only person I can see who says he's from the Island.

I advise that you go back and read my post carefully. I phrase my words very particularly. NOWHERE in my lengthy post did I indicate that I felt Phaneuf was this, or that, or that I SAW him play like this or like that. I was very clear in saying that I had not seen any respectable reports or journals, magazines, etc, that suggested Phaneuf was what db23 was suggesting Phaneuf was.

For the most part I am a great under-rated of prospects. I have a few select favourites, for sure, and when I post about these players I make it clear that I have a bias towards them, and outwardly say so most of the time. I never will make a post where I try to claim that I have great knowledge of a player on personal experience. I go by what the PROFESSIONALS write, because frankly, I trust the opinion of a pro scout over a casual, or even fanatical, sports fan.

If you are going to come out and call me out, call me out on mistakenly reporting what scouting profiles suggest. Don't try to say that I have ever said I know everything about Phaneuf because of my extensive time watching him, because I have not said that, and I will not say that.

If you have further dispute with me, please PM me, the boards do not need this type of discussion in the threads.

 

[gb701]

I'm guessing that your remarks were directed towards me because I'm the only person I can see who says he's from the Island.

I advise that you go back and read my post carefully. I phrase my words very particularly. NOWHERE in my lengthy post did I indicate that I felt Phaneuf was this, or that, or that I SAW him play like this or like that. I was very clear in saying that I had not seen any respectable reports or journals, magazines, etc, that suggested Phaneuf was what db23 was suggesting Phaneuf was.

For the most part I am a great under-rated of prospects. I have a few select favourites, for sure, and when I post about these players I make it clear that I have a bias towards them, and outwardly say so most of the time. I never will make a post where I try to claim that I have great knowledge of a player on personal experience. I go by what the PROFESSIONALS write, because frankly, I trust the opinion of a pro scout over a casual, or even fanatical, sports fan.

If you are going to come out and call me out, call me out on mistakenly reporting what scouting profiles suggest. Don't try to say that I have ever said I know everything about Phaneuf because of my extensive time watching him, because I have not said that, and I will not say that.

If you have further dispute with me, please PM me, the boards do not need this type of discussion in the threads.

1. Lighten up. Being called out for making unsubstantiated comments is actually all about what this board "needs". In fact, it is often the only reason threads exist - try reading the "debate" up above between yourself, db23 and others.

2. Actually, you did make personal comments that I think are grossly unfounded - like: "Is Dion Phaneuf the single most over-rated prospect in the world right now? Yup, he certainly is, only remotely contested by Zach Parise". Care to back that one up - in respect of either player you name as over-rated?

3. And finally, I wasn't particularly "calling you out" but commenting on the thread as a whole - you took the hit as the only person putting a place by your handle. I actually agree with some of your comments, and I know that your role has been to debate with someone taking much more extreme positions on even less information. I just still find it funny that anyone would make a specific comment about a player based largely on hearsay and perhaps the odd viewing. I have no comments with generalized stuff - but this thread has crossed the line repeatedly into little more than gossip.

Sorry if you were offended - but them's the breaks.

 

[ZombieMatt]

2. Actually, you did make personal comments that I think are grossly unfounded - like: "Is Dion Phaneuf the single most over-rated prospect in the world right now? Yup, he certainly is, only remotely contested by Zach Parise". Care to back that one up - in respect of either player you name as over-rated?

Okay, fair enough in some regards, but you have to know the context to properly understand. On THESE boards, which is where my mistake certain lies, those two guys are extremely over-rated in my opinion. Now, herein lies my natural bias, because I typically am very conservative in my projections for prospects. However, the suddenly very vocal Flames fans after the playoff run, are proud fans, which is great, but many of them (certainly not all) have Phaneuf penned in to be a perennial Norris candidate, captain, and basically a deity by some descriptions. I disagree with these lofty anticipations, as I tend to agree with many of the projections which seem to pencil him in more typically as the defensively responsible component of a top pairing. Which is still a very, very, good player, but less of a dominant, 'go-to' guy, and more of an accompanying piece who gives a more offensive guy (here's where my 8 games or so of Phaneuf comes in where I say I don't think his offensive skills will translate to the NHL, but that's just my own opinion on a limited amount of viewings that I'm apprehensive to say anything about).

I don't really want to go into why I think Parise is over-rated, there was a Parise vs Dawes thread which broke down into "How mighty is Parise" argument, and you can review that if you would like, but honestly, its probably not worth your time (If you're not already familiar with how that went).

I think both of those guys will be good players, but I don't think either are going to be the great, Hart Trophy sort of guys some of the Flames and Devils fans, and many others caught up in the hoopla claim they will be. One poster in this thread insinuated he'd take Phaneuf over Ovechkin. That's a good enough example of maximum overhype.

Basically I tend to make my projections based on major publication reports, mixed in with a little of what a few very select group of posters who I KNOW actually see some of these players frequently have to say. And I'm not certain what I said was really all that grossly unfounded. All I'm meaning to say is by calling Phaneuf the next Stevens or Pronger, or whatever, THAT is over-rating him. Grossly. My interpretation of what experts expect from him is less generous, and that's why I call him over-rated.

 

[mowthecat]

And the Flames have guys like Simon that will pound people if other teams enforcers try and make Dion drop the gloves for hits on their star players. It works both ways.

Yes Patrick. In your wildest dreams Chris Simon will "pound" Georges Laraque.Simon can barely "pound" his way through a wet kleenex anymore in case you hadnt noticed. Is he even recognized as a heavyweight enforcer any more?

 

[HuskyFlames]

Yes Patrick. In your wildest dreams Chris Simon will "pound" Georges Laraque.Simon can barely "pound" his way through a wet kleenex anymore in case you hadnt noticed. Is he even recognized as a heavyweight enforcer any more?

I would actually take Simon over Oliwa and last year Oliwa held his own easily against Big George. Simon has that "rady to snap" and kill your family when he fights attitude. I would be more scared of him than Oliwa.

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

All the same comments were made about Gauthier a few years back after he scored ABOUT TWICE AS MANY POINTS IN LESS GAMES in the CHL than Phaneuf did last year. So that proves that Phaneuf is the more skilled player?

Once again your reliance on stats is obvious. Could it be any more clear you haven't seen much of these guys?

Strange that you don't take into account that scoring has gone down in junior and that the QMJHL is a higher scoring league. Strange that you don't take into account that the QMJHL is a thinner league as well. Derrick Walser (a former Flames prospect) had 41 goals and 110 points as a defensemab, where is he now, how many career NHL points does he have?

If you want some accomplishments and accolades how about this?

http://www.chl.ca/CHLNews0304/0303.html

Gauthier and Phaneuf remain a terrible comparison. Anybody who's watched them knows this. Only a guy who tries to judge prospects solely by the stats would think they are comparable.

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

This post is bang on. If you guys can't admit that Gauthier was as hyped when he was 19 as Phaneuf is now, you either have selective memories or you weren't old enough to read at the time.

Really? Well why don't show us some links that have Gauthier as the 2nd highest rated prospects outside the NHL and the highest rated CHL prospect?

Prove it.

 

[paxtang]

Yes Patrick. In your wildest dreams Chris Simon will "pound" Georges Laraque.Simon can barely "pound" his way through a wet kleenex anymore in case you hadnt noticed. Is he even recognized as a heavyweight enforcer any more?

Simon had quite the comeback year fighting wise last year, so yes, he is recognized as a heavyweight anymore. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[Jovo Cop]

For what its worth in Dions 1 exhibition game with the Flames last year against the Oil , he took a regular shift , scored a goal and was one of the 3 stars ..sorry cant remember which one .. i know its exhibition but still ..dat aint too damn bad .

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Yeah, he didn't look out of place at all last training camp. Would have made the team had we been an expansion team or had less depth on defense. And by all accounts he progressed quite nicely last year (WJC All Star Team at age 18, THN and CHL accolades.)

Sure he may be overrated by some. But comparing him to Gauthier is underrating him.