Can you lead the league in goals and not be a top 10 player in the NHL?

Discussion in 'National Hockey League Talk' started by Dumb and nobody, Oct 23, 2018.

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  1. Dumb and nobody

    Dumb and nobody Registered User

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    My team is the Washington Capitals. I watch them every night.

    It's 100 percent clear to me Kuznetsov is the best player on the Caps. Ovechkin is second.

    Kuznetsov is probably in the low end of the top 10 players in the NHL. Or maybe not even in there, depending on how you value certain goalies and defensemen. So that places Ovechkin outside of the top 10.

    Seems wrong to leave the best goal scorer in the world outside of the top 10 but I don't see a hole in my logic.
     
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  2. DominicBoltsFan

    DominicBoltsFan Advanced stats are good!

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    Sure it’s possible. Disagree with your evaluation of Kuznetsov though.
     
  3. Maukkis

    Maukkis PK's Sobbin'

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    Laine came very close last year.
     
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  4. Silky mitts

    Silky mitts It’s yours boys and girls and babes let’s go!

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    Cheechoo proved it's possible
     
  5. Arselona

    Arselona Registered User

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    Yes, there are examples like Bondra and Cheechoo as well that probably fall outside top 10 in their respective years leading the league in scoring
     
  6. TheFountainhead

    TheFountainhead Red Nation

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    Kuznetsov being better than Ovechkin is SUPER debatable. Ovechkin is the focus of every team’s game plan and he is still wildly productive. Ovie’s Production + the physical punishment he levies (and the space he creates) still has him as the team’s top player in my mind. Kuzy’s a gem though.
     
  7. DownIsTheNewUp

    DownIsTheNewUp Registered User

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    I think it comes down to how long they perform at that level and different people weigh the past more heavily than others when ranking players. When people put Ovechkin in the top 10, they are considering what he is doing now along with what he's done in the past.

    I understand what you are saying and the exact same thing could be said about Brayden Point on the Lightning. Watching the games, he is easily our best player right now, and that's going back to stretches of last season as well when Kucherov was leading in points and Hedman was on his way to winning the Norris. Does that mean he's a top 10 player and pushes guys like Hedman and Kucherov out? I wouldn't make that claim now, but with time you might be able to.
     
  8. InAbsensia

    InAbsensia OMG Boro is going to be our captain isn't he?

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    Yes, because though goal scoring is an important aspect in team wins, two-way play is much, much more important.
    No one is going to win a Cup (the only relevant and important thing, really) without three zone play.
    So, for example, a Patrice Bergeron with 30 goals and a Selke-level season is better than a Bobby Ryan (say) with 40+ goals.
     
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  9. TheFountainhead

    TheFountainhead Red Nation

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    Not to mention that Ovie is definitely a top 10 player in the league. Think about it this way, if there was a league wide draft for one season (this current one), would league execs pick Ovie in the top 10? They would undoubtedly imo. You'd be drafting a dominant (legendary even) goal scorer that is still wildly productive, a super nova of enthusiasm that would uplift your team, a player that would not only ensure that your top line is one of the most productive in the league but also amongst the most physical, and he does that against top pairing defensemen and shutdown lines game in and game out. Oh, and he also guarantees you a top 5 or top 10 pp in the league. There aren't 10 players in the league that guarantee that level of impact. Hell, there aren't FIVE players in the league that bring that type of impact to the table.
     
  10. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Registered User Sponsor

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    Sure if you do it once. If you do it seven times, um, I gonna say no.
     
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  11. GirardSpinorama

    GirardSpinorama Registered User

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    Ovey is a top 10 player. I dont see how anyone would argue against that.
     
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  12. Midnight Judges

    Midnight Judges Registered User Sponsor

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    Firstly, yes it is possible. A guy like Joe Thornton can elevate a player to a Rocket. In that instance, Thornton was a top player, not the other way around.

    That's never been the case with Ovie though - he scores goals regardless of who plays C.

    Disagree with you that Kuz is the best Capital. Kuz is an elite skater, an elite passer, has a good shot, and a high hockey IQ.

    He is not great at defense, he's not physical, he's not great along the boards, and he pretty much sucks at faceoffs. That sounds like a lot of criticism but actually these things don't matter that much because his strengths are overwhelming.

    The hole in your logic is that great goal scorers are hard to come by. Consistently great goal scorers are the elite of the rare. There is no other weapon like Ovie. No other team has a comparable player. No other player can do what he does. There is no player with his shot and physicality and skating and durability. There may never have been in the history of the league (Bobby Hull comes closest).
     
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  13. DearDiary

    DearDiary Cutest Poster

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    The problem with your logic is that Ovechkin needs an elite center to be successful for the past 10 years. You can't put him with Ellers and still put up 50 goals and 90+ points. You don't build out from the wing, especially over centers who create chances for their linemates each shift and play a 2 way game.
     
  14. MXD

    MXD Original #4

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    ...You guys in Washington had the poster child for "Leading the NHL in goals while not being a Top-10 player in the league", and no, I'm not talking about Ovechkin...
     
  15. Midnight Judges

    Midnight Judges Registered User Sponsor

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    That's false. Mike Ribeiro was his C and Ovechkin killed it and won the MVP. Kuznetsov wasn't elite until 2018 (his fourth season) but Ovechkin still produced with him previously. Backstrom has had lulls and Ovechkin still produced.

    Conversely, while Ovechkin's production has been consistent, all 3 centers referenced above produce substantially better on Ovechkin's line. Not a coincidence.

    It's obvious who needs who, and it isn't Ovechkin.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  16. Midnight Judges

    Midnight Judges Registered User Sponsor

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    Backstrom's points last 4 seasons:

    78 (played with Ovie)
    70 (share Ovie with Kuz, mostly not Ovie)
    86 (played with Ovie)
    71 (Not Ovie)

    Kuznetsov's points past 4 seasons

    37 (didn't play with Ovie)
    77 (played with Ovie a lot)
    59 (didn't play with Ovie)
    83 (played with Ovie all season)

    Mike Ribiero (using PPG because his season with Ovie was the lockout shortened season)

    .86 (no Ovie)
    .85 (no Ovie)
    1.02 (played with Ovie)
    .58 (no Ovie)
    .75 (no Ovie)

    See the pattern?
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  17. trick9

    trick9 Registered User

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    Kuznetsov played with Ovechkin for 10-15 games that season. Backstrom played with Oshie and Ovechkin for majority of that season. Kuznetsov played with Williams and Johansson for most of the year.
     
  18. Midnight Judges

    Midnight Judges Registered User Sponsor

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    Yes looking back I think you are right.
     
  19. Sky04

    Sky04 Registered User

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    Yes, there were seasons where Ovechkin lead the league in goals but wasn't nearly as effective all round as other guys.

    I'll trust a Washington fan to say who has more of an impact than outside fans. Kuznetsov was easily Washington's most dangerous forward because of how much he created last playoffs if he's doing that on a regular basis I can see why Washington fans think that way, it's like when Tampa fans say Brayden Point does a hell of a lot more than Stamkos, but name recognition and such....
     
  20. snipes

    snipes Registered User

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    First name that came to mind too
     
  21. trick9

    trick9 Registered User

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    Kuznetsov is dominant when he's rolling but he goes cold for stretches. That hasn't happened for a while though so no doubt some would think so.

    Ovechkin usually scores even when he's otherwise not playing well because of his ridiculous shot. His consistency and goal-scoring ability puts him ahead for now, IMO.
     
  22. 21 Savage

    21 Savage Registered User

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    I'd consider Perry in his Richard year to be on the borderline of the list, probably leaning closer to not being in than in.
     

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