Can the New York Rangers be worth a billion?

Discussion in 'Fugu's Business of Hockey Forum' started by viper0220, Oct 28, 2013.

View Users: View Users
  1. viper0220

    viper0220 Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,203
    Likes Received:
    399
    Trophy Points:
    124
    According to Forbes the Maple Leafs are worth a billion dollars(I think that is close enough we will know cause they are not going to open their books). Now onto the New York Rangers, they will be playing in a billion dollar arena, the NHL revenues are expected to rise significantly and with 50-50 share between the owners and the players(all NHL teams will see a rise in their values) can the New York Rangers join the Maple Leafs in the billion dollar club? I think the Montreal Canadiens will also come close to a billion dollars(close but not there).


    Just a side question, if the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Montreal Canadiens were to met in the playoffs, does that help them financially going forward and what will that mean for the teams?
     
  2. Killion

    Killion Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Messages:
    36,490
    Likes Received:
    2,655
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Well, breaking it down, wasnt Forbes "guesstimate" (because thats what Forbes is all about, VooDoo Appraisals) in the $550M range, that the Leafs were worth $550M then adding the Marlies, Raptors, TFC, the ACC & real estate holdings etc you had the total sale price from the OTPF of $1.8B or whatever it was? And that wasnt 2yrs ago. Now were supposed to just blithely accept this new appraisal of $1B? 100% increase in the evaluation in just 18mnths or so?... Ok. I suppose. NOT. I guess someone somewhere with more money than God would pay that but its not accurate, that clubs not worth one billion dollars and nor are the Rangers. Maybe in 10-15yrs I could see it but not now, not yet & not even close. Whatever Forbes suggests, I urge you take it with a big grain of salt. Wildly inaccurate. They cant even get actual sale prices right.
     
  3. Pi

    Pi Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2010
    Messages:
    42,964
    Likes Received:
    4,417
    Trophy Points:
    157
    Location:
    Toronto
    Yeah, I don't see how the Leafs are worth a billion. Forbes is just guessing.

    Even MLSE said that they have no idea how Forbes came to that number when that article was released.
     
  4. Killion

    Killion Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Messages:
    36,490
    Likes Received:
    2,655
    Trophy Points:
    156
    ^^^ ya, a lot of examples of Forbes getting it so wrong Im afraid. The NHL is under no obligation whatsoever to come clean & be honest when a club is sold, as witness the confusing numbers that came out of Florida when the Lightning were sold. Reported sale price was north of $160M however that included the arena & land surrounding it, pundits having a field day, some (like Nick Kypreos for eg) suggesting the club itself, indeed, the entire transaction went down for maybe $80M, $60M in cash, the rest assumed debt. Dallas, recently Phoenix, very little actual cash put up by the buyers, a lot of assumed debt, loans. Yet if you read Forbes, they throw out these valuations that are simply the farthest thing from reality as is almost imaginable. Wildly inaccurate. Unfortunately its all we as fans who follow this stuff have as base-lines, so as long as you understand that their really basing valuations on averages league wide and divide accordingly while paying attention to what really went down on the ground, good to go.
     
  5. aqib

    aqib Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    3,806
    Likes Received:
    77
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Forbes pulls a lot of stuff out of thin air. In the case of either the Rangers or Leafs you have to factor in the arena (since they own it) and also have to determine how much revenue you would lose if you didn't have an NBA team with them. In both cases corporate sponsorship, suites, and premium seats get bundled for both teams. So there are companies that buy both because they really want one or the other.
     
  6. No Fun Shogun

    No Fun Shogun 34-38-61-10-13-15

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    47,215
    Likes Received:
    1,777
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Occupation:
    Illegal Ill Eagle
    Location:
    An unspecified place on Google Maps, apparently
    Forbes doubled the value of the Leafs from a half billion to a billion in the span of a single year, so they were clearly vastly underestimating the Leafs previously, are greatly overestimating their value currently, or both, none of which paint a very good picture for how accurate their guesstimates are.
     
  7. Killion

    Killion Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Messages:
    36,490
    Likes Received:
    2,655
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Its absolutely ludicrous. How do you go from $550M to over a Bi$$ion in 18 to
    12mnths? Really, to take their valuations seriously you do so at your own folly.
     
  8. Fugu

    Fugu Administrator

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2004
    Messages:
    36,952
    Likes Received:
    211
    Trophy Points:
    1,000
    Occupation:
    Existence
    Location:
    ϶(°o°)ϵ
    The valuations that carry some validity are based on actual sale price-- and we have seen nearly half the NHL turn over in the past few years.
     
  9. LadyStanley

    LadyStanley RIP Fugu

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    Messages:
    75,251
    Likes Received:
    3,012
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Sin City
    FWIW, Forbes releases their annual valuations of NHL franchises in November (~third week, IIRC). So we have about four weeks of discussion on this before we can talk about the 2013 $s.
     
  10. KingLB

    KingLB Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2008
    Messages:
    7,756
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    96
    Ask the Dodgers:sarcasm:
     
  11. tony d

    tony d Registered User Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2007
    Messages:
    67,871
    Likes Received:
    1,605
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Office Worker
    Location:
    Behind A Tree
    They could be given the fact they might be the most recognized NHL franchise in the US. That said a billion seems a bit lofty.
     
  12. Kane One

    Kane One Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Messages:
    35,346
    Likes Received:
    346
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Location:
    Brooklyn, New NY
    I'd say that title goes to the Bruins.
     
  13. Burke the Legend

    Burke the Legend Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    6,326
    Likes Received:
    375
    Trophy Points:
    95
    The Canadiens in 2009 sold for $575 million. That includes the arena + land, plus the pretty successful promotion company that books acts at the Bell Centre but also other big & small venues all over Quebec & Maritimes.

    How much would the actual hockey franchise be worth there? 300 million? 350? Some multiple of revenues, 3x-4x? You'd have to guess the Rangers' and Leafs' hockey teams would be valued similarly, pretty much strictly off revenue. What are they, double the Canadiens? 50% more? So maybe 600-700$ max.

    The rest of that 1.8$ billion was all land, buildings and the other sports teams.
     
  14. aqib

    aqib Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    3,806
    Likes Received:
    77
    Trophy Points:
    71
    When the deal went down my dad and I were discussing it (he is a retired banker) and he said the ACC alone would be worth about $800 million. When you figure the cost for a new arena is around $400 million its not hard to get to get to that number given that its on very expensive land.
     
  15. Branden

    Branden Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2011
    Messages:
    8,497
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    54
    Location:
    Swansea, MA
    Why do you say that?

    I'm a Bruins fan but I'd say its either the Rangers or Redwings.
     
  16. Megustaelhockey

    Megustaelhockey "I like hockey" in Spanish

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    14,026
    Likes Received:
    851
    Trophy Points:
    139
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Boss
    If not the Rangers, it's the Wingos!

    The Rangers have a lot going for them financially but they're not particularly well liked...
     
  17. Killion

    Killion Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Messages:
    36,490
    Likes Received:
    2,655
    Trophy Points:
    156
    I think your both off on this. Id say the most iconic hockey team in the US would be the Chicago Black Hawks and much of that based on the strength of their logo & colors as their Cup Wins of late. Always respectable performances on the ice, competitive, reaching back through the Esposito & Hull, Hall & Mikita era's, bit of a blip early 50's & during the war years, but previously with Mr.Zero Frankie Brimsek & so on. Chicago the states Second City throughout the 20th & early 21st Centuries, its residents fanning out to the southwest, California & Florida, the Southeast. Definitely a transcendent franchise on several levels in comparison to Boston, New York & Detroit. Now, had the Rangers rather than Montreal, Toronto & Detroit won all those Cups in the 50's & 60's and had the Star Power of Chicago then perhaps. And in fact I suspect the game would be a lot farther ahead in the US had they won as frequently as the Habs or Leafs during the 06 era...
     
  18. Betamax*

    Betamax* Guest

    Uh, how about the the popularity of the Blackhawks "brand" before Rocky Wirtz took over from his father? I think it reached "rock" bottom with previous policies like not airing home games on television, for example.
     
    Last edited by moderator : Oct 30, 2013
  19. Killion

    Killion Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Messages:
    36,490
    Likes Received:
    2,655
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Ya I took that into account alrighty. Still feel the Black Hawks are the more iconic certainly of the 4 US based 06'rs, that brand more instantly recognizable, more identifiable than the other 3 clubs amongst non-hockey fans.
     
  20. Betamax*

    Betamax* Guest

    I'm in Canada, and my own perception of the most iconic American hockey team would be the Detroit Red Wings and that has a lot to do with their multiple Stanley Cup wins and consistent on ice excellence during Yzerman and then Lidstrom era that still continues to this day.
     
  21. Killion

    Killion Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Messages:
    36,490
    Likes Received:
    2,655
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Yes perhaps so. And of course under Adams, Howe & Sawchuk etc post WW2. An awful lot of years in ignominy there though during the birth of television & its impact from the mid 50's & through the 60's followed by another almost 2 decades of some pretty bad teams. Its an interesting question.
     
  22. aqib

    aqib Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    3,806
    Likes Received:
    77
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Michigan is also helped by the lower levels of hockey. They have a couple of OHL teams and a few top college programs. IIRC the colleges in Michigan have more Frozen Four titles than any other state.
     
  23. Fugu

    Fugu Administrator

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2004
    Messages:
    36,952
    Likes Received:
    211
    Trophy Points:
    1,000
    Occupation:
    Existence
    Location:
    ϶(°o°)ϵ

    As an American who grew up in Chicago, I think Detroit is the most iconic team. One still sees more Wings gear around the country (and world) than any other team.
     
  24. aemoreira1981

    aemoreira1981 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    6,885
    Likes Received:
    131
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Occupation:
    Graduate student
    Location:
    New York City
    The company that owns the Rangers is publicly traded (NASDAQ: MSG), although the traded shares are non-voting shares as Madison Square Garden is a dual-class company), but given that MSG has a market capitalization (as of the closing bell on 10/30/13) of US$4.664 billion, it's not out of the realm of possibility. The Rangers franchise if sold as one piece would likely include, in addition to the team itself, 50 percent of Madison Square Garden, the AHL franchise Wolf Pack, 50 percent of the TV network that airs their games, and 50 percent of the MSG Training Center.

    The non-Rangers assets would be the Knicks and Liberty, part of the MSG arena and the MSG Training Center, the Fuse music network, the Forum in Los Angeles, the Radio City Christmas Spectacular, and operating rights to Radio City Music Hall, the Beacon Theatre, and the Chicago Theatre. As such, $1B may be a low-ball estimate for the Rangers. Fuse and the non-sports assets can't be worth that much to the market cap.

    If the Rangers were up for sale, chances are that to impress the Dolans to sell the company, one would have to offer at least $6.5 billion, and that would be a 39 percent premium.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  25. Kane One

    Kane One Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Messages:
    35,346
    Likes Received:
    346
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Location:
    Brooklyn, New NY
    Why are you including 50% of other MSG assets in the Rangers value? The Rangers and, for example, MSG Network are two different companies. They are just both owned by MSG Inc. If Dolan were to sell the Rangers, that doesn't mean he's selling 50% of MSG Network.
     

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"