Can anyone match Mario being in on 57.3% of his team's goals from 1989?

[Big Phil]

Correct me if I am wrong, but has anyone matched this? I don't think they have.

Mario Lemieux had 199 points in 1989 and the Pens overall had 347 goals. That means Mario was in on 57.3% of his team's goals. How he didn't win the Hart I'll never know. I know the league was fascinated with the whole Gretzky-t0-LA thing but to me Mario in 1989 was the epitome of a Hart winner in every shape or form.

The 1989 were a strange team. On one hand you want to say "Well, he had a prime Coffey who had 113 points" and on the other hand you want to point out that they had basically no forward depth at this time. Rob Brown who was good but clearly was a product of Mario himself was there and so was Dan Quinn. But overall this was Mario's team.

Right now as it stands a good comparison is McDavid in 2019. He has 78 points on his team's 153 goals. That is a sparkling 50.9% of his team's goals. Yet it is still noticeably further back from Mario's percentage in 1989.

Even other years with Mario he never comes close to this. By my look 52.6% in 1988 is the next closest and the only one over 50%. In comparison Gretzky in 1981 was in on exactly 50% of the Oilers' goals. Then 50.8% in 1982. 51.8% in 1985. 50.4% in 1986.

So even the best of all-time isn't particularly close.

So the question is, can anyone surpass this record? (I am assuming it is a record, at least with that many points)

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[The Panther]

I had a thread about this very topic nearly three years ago: Players Dominating their Teams' Scoring (per season)

In that thread, I think we determined this, though it's probably not 100% correct:


Players Dominating their Teams' Points scoring, per-season:

1) Mario Lemieux 1988-89 (Pitts.) -- 57.35%
2) Mario Lemieux 1987-88 (Pitts.) -- 52.66%
3) Jaromir Jagr 1998-99 (Pitts.) -- 52.48%
4) Wayne Gretzky 1984-85 (Edm.) -- 51.87%
5) Wayne Gretzky 1981-82 (Edm.) -- 50.84%
6) Wayne Gretzky 1985-86 (Edm.) -- 50.47%
7) Wayne Gretzky 1980-81 (Edm.) -- 50.00%
8) Teemu Selanne 1998-99 (Ana.) -- 49.77%
9) Steve Yzerman 1988-89 (Det.) -- 49.52%
10) Jaromir Jagr 2005-06 (NYR) -- 49.20%
11) Wayne Gretzky 1986-87 (Edm.) -- 49.19%
12) Mario Lemieux 2002-03 (Pitts.) -- 48.15% (despite missing 15 games)

Those are all the ones we've so far identified at 48.0% or higher.




Players Dominating their Teams' Goal scoring, per-season:

1) Pavel Bure 2000-01 (Flor.) -- 29.5%
2) Brett Hull 1990-91 (St.L) -- 27.74%
3) Alexander Ovechkin 2007-08 (Wash.) -- 26.86%
4) Jarome Iginla 2001-02 (Calg.) -- 25.87%
5) Steven Stamkos 2001-12 (Tampa) -- 25.53%
6) Brett Hull 1991-92 (St.L) -- 25.09%
7) Maurice Richard 1949-50 (Mon.) -- 25.00%
8) Petr Bondra 1995 (Wash.) -- 25.00% (48-game work-stoppage season)
9) Mario Lemieux 1988-89 (Pitts.) -- 24.50%
10) Brett Hull 1989-90 (St.L) -- 24.41%
11) Maurice Richard 1950-51 (Mon.) -- 24.28%
12) Maurice Richard 1946-47 (Mon.) -- 23.81%
13) Pavel Bure 1999-00 (Flor.) -- 23.77%
14) Petr Bondra 1997-98 (Wash.) -- 23.74%
15) Teemu Selanne (Winn.) 1992-93 -- 23.60%
16) Rick Nash (CBJ) 2003-04 -- 23.16%
17) Bobby Hull (Chi.) 1961-62 -- 23.04%


Those are all the ones we've so far identified at 23.0% or higher (I upped the cut-off to 23%, which eliminated Howe and Gretzky.)




Players Dominating their Teams' Assists scoring, per-season:

1) Wayne Gretzky 1985-86 (Edm.) -- 38.27%
2) Wayne Gretzky 1990-91 (L.A.) -- 35.88%
3) Joe Thornton 2006-07 (San J.) -- 35.66%
4) Jaromir Jagr 1998-99 (Pitts.) -- 34.30%
5) Wayne Gretzky 1997-98 (NYR) -- 34.01%
6) Mario Lemieux 2002-03 (Pitts.) -- 33.33% (despite missing 15 games)
7) Wayne Gretzky 1984-85 (Edm.) -- 33.67%
8) Wayne Gretzky 1980-81 (Edm.) -- 33.23%
9) Mario Lemieux 1988-89 (Pitts.) -- 32.85%
10) Wayne Gretzky 1986-87 (Edm.) -- 32.53%
11) Wayne Gretzky 1991-92 (L.A.) -- 31.36%
12) Wayne Gretzky 1993-94 (L.A.) -- 31.29%
13) Mario Lemieux 1987-88 (Pitts.) -- 30.72%
14) Wayne Gretzky 1989-90 (L.A.) -- 30.18%
15) Wayne Gretzky 1987-88 (Edm.) -- 30.03% (despite missing 16 games)

Those are all the ones we've so far identified at 30.0% or higher.



But then Hockey Outsider corrected my (updated) lists by adding this:

*******

Goals- 23% threshold

We had identified 17 put of 21. The four we were missing were Selanne (1998), Kovalchuk (2008), Sloan (1956) and Stamkos (2010). We had the wrong year for Bure (it should have been 2000 instead of 1998).

Accomplished by Richard 3x, Brett Hull 3x, Selanne 2x, Stamkos 2x, Bure 2x, Bondra 2x and everyone else once each (Lemieux, Bobby Hull, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Iginla, Nash, Sloan).

I never would have guessed Tod Sloan's 1956 season qualifies.

Assists- 30% threshold


We missed a lot of these. Maybe 31% or 32% is a better cut-off.

Accomplished by Gretzky 11x, Lemieux 3x, Gilmour 2x, Thornton 2x, Sedin 2x, M. Savard 2x and everyone else once each (Clarke, Crosby, Forsberg, Jagr, Malkin, Orr, D. Savard, St. Louis, Weight, Zetterberg).

If we use the more restrictive 32% cut-off, this was done by Gretzky 6x, Lemieux 2x, and once each by everyone else (Gilmour, Jagr, M. Savard, Sedin, Thornton, Weight).

********

 

[The Panther]

Just to add, while certainly Mario's 1988-89 (and also 1987-88) scoring dominance on his team is truly remarkable, the Pens in those days are not comparable (in my view) to poor McDavid and the Oilers today.

So, let's say Mario and Coffey are roughly the scoring domination equivalent (respective to each team) of McDavid and Draisaitl. Okay, but then what's next?

In 1987-88, besides Mario and Coffey, the Pens had two other PPG players, Cunneyworth and Quinn. Rob Brown was starting to score that season, too. Even if we grant that Mario and Coffey drove that engine -- and they did -- the Pens still ended up 4th in NHL scoring in 1987-88.

In 1988-89, they were stronger yet with Mario's (maybe) greatest season, Coffey's 113 points, Brown's 115 points (in 68 games!), and Quinn's 94 points (and remarkable -37). Even Cunneyworth and Bob Errey had 25 and 26 goals, respectively. So, they had six 25-goal scorers, which isn't too shabby.

I would say today's McDavid situation is probably more like Mario in 1985-86 (141 points for him, but Pens are 11th in scoring), or even Bure with Florida.

 

[tony d]

Probably not, Mario was generational and in an otherwise bad situation with the Pens back then. Mcdavid may come close but I think he'll fall short.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

12) Mario Lemieux 2002-03 (Pitts.) -- 48.15% (despite missing 15 games)

A crazy stat - it speaks to both how good a 37 year old Lemieux was, and how awful those Penguins were.

 

[Hynh]

Correct me if I am wrong, but has anyone matched this? I don't think they have.

Mario Lemieux had 199 points in 1989 and the Pens overall had 347 goals. That means Mario was in on 57.3% of his team's goals. How he didn't win the Hart I'll never know. I know the league was fascinated with the whole Gretzky-t0-LA thing but to me Mario in 1989 was the epitome of a Hart winner in every shape or form.

The 1989 were a strange team. On one hand you want to say "Well, he had a prime Coffey who had 113 points" and on the other hand you want to point out that they had basically no forward depth at this time. Rob Brown who was good but clearly was a product of Mario himself was there and so was Dan Quinn. But overall this was Mario's team.

Right now as it stands a good comparison is McDavid in 2019. He has 78 points on his team's 153 goals. That is a sparkling 50.9% of his team's goals. Yet it is still noticeably further back from Mario's percentage in 1989.

Even other years with Mario he never comes close to this. By my look 52.6% in 1988 is the next closest and the only one over 50%. In comparison Gretzky in 1981 was in on exactly 50% of the Oilers' goals. Then 50.8% in 1982. 51.8% in 1985. 50.4% in 1986.

So even the best of all-time isn't particularly close.

So the question is, can anyone surpass this record? (I am assuming it is a record, at least with that many points)

McDavid is actually at 78/150 or 52%. The 153 you used counts the goals awarded for shootout wins.

 

[Hot Water Bottle]

Before seeing the numbers, I would have expected more "great players stuck on lousy teams" situations, such as Hawerchuk, Perrault, or Dionne

 

[MadLuke]

If foward usage and power plays stay about than now probably not.

In 88-89 the league team had 5 powerplays by game and scored 28% of their goals that way, they are down to 3 scoring 20%.

Lemieux was probably playing close to the 2 minutes back in the days and some season participating on what over 90% of the those power play goals (if I remember the argument about him being the best power play players of all time), it could be possible to beat Lemieux EV goal participation in the current environment maybe, overall % probably not.

But rules change, 3v3 is helping McDavid and other first liner/#1 D a lot for example, in 2005-2006 33% of the goals were on the PP, so it would not be surprising if in the next 60 year's some season make it even more favorable than 88-89 for top scorers and have one beat Mario records.

Because the rules are not fix, the answer is pretty much always maybe to any will X ever happen one day, special one season type of record and not one that require Gretzky/Howe bizarre consistency/longevity.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Nope. Lemieux was an alien

 

[authentic]

I would say not a chance, not even for McDavid.

 

[Eisen]

You need a truly horrible team to achieve that.

 

[The Panther]

You need a truly horrible team to achieve that.

McDavid: "Check!"

 

[Eisen]

McDavid: "Check!"

I fear it's not horrible enough. Too much secondary scoring. Sorry, Macky. I know you suffer.

 

[The Panther]

I fear it's not horrible enough. Too much secondary scoring. Sorry, Macky. I know you suffer.

I challenge you to post the highlighted statement on the Oilers' board and see what reaction you get...

 

[Eisen]

I challenge you to post the highlighted statement on the Oilers' board and see what reaction you get...

No thanks, I like my life.

 

[Big Phil]

You need a truly horrible team to achieve that.

True enough, although the Pens in 1989 weren't "horrible". I think it is more a case of Lemieux just flat out being other worldly. You had Coffey there at least.

 

[MadLuke]

True enough, although the Pens in 1989 weren't "horrible". I think it is more a case of Lemieux just flat out being other worldly. You had Coffey there at least.

If a lot of your ice time / PP is disproportionally with Coffey versus the rest of the other forward of the team, maybe having him help your point share instead of hurting it to be honest.

How good the team is when you are not on the ice is the more important metric.

 

[Big Phil]

If a lot of your ice time / PP is disproportionally with Coffey versus the rest of the other forward of the team, maybe having him help your point share instead of hurting it to be honest.

How good the team is when you are not on the ice is the more important metric.

Coffey had 64 points on the power play that year and 49 even strength. Mario would have been in on those even strength points to an extent too though of course.

One weird thing with that team, they allowed a LOT of goals, but Mario was a +41 while Dan Quinn, who had 94 points, was a shocking -37. Wow, what a difference.

 

[The Panther]

Than Quinn -37 is a real stand-out. Usually when somebody puts up that kind of mark it isn't on a plus.500 team where another forward is +41. A real outlier.

Quinn was Mario's best pal on the club, wasn't he? I seem to recall Lemieux was p***ed when they traded Quinn...

 

[Big Phil]

Than Quinn -37 is a real stand-out. Usually when somebody puts up that kind of mark it isn't on a plus.500 team where another forward is +41. A real outlier.

Quinn was Mario's best pal on the club, wasn't he? I seem to recall Lemieux was p***ed when they traded Quinn...

I guess in hindsight it was alright because he was never the same afterwards. I looked it up and Quinn had a 147 point season in junior. He had skill, he just didn't last. None of what they got for him helped them win the Cup either.

One strange thing about the Pens in 1989 is that they had 347 goals for and 349 goals against despite being 7 games above .500. It just goes to show you how much Mario carried those pre-Cup teams. The more you look into his 1989 season the more you wonder how the heck he lost the Hart. It wasn't even close either, Gretzky had double the first place votes than him. That is just so strange that not only he lost but he noticeably was in 2nd.

 

[The Panther]

One strange thing about the Pens in 1989 is that they had 347 goals for and 349 goals against despite being 7 games above .500. It just goes to show you how much Mario carried those pre-Cup teams. The more you look into his 1989 season the more you wonder how the heck he lost the Hart. It wasn't even close either, Gretzky had double the first place votes than him. That is just so strange that not only he lost but he noticeably was in 2nd.

My theory on the '89 Hart is that two very unique factors were at play:
1) Gretzky in L.A., which overnight became a good team.
2) Mario's having won the Hart the year before, with his team missing the playoffs, just.

Whereas in '88, Gretzky's injury and missed games gave voters the reason they were desperate for to vote someone else the Hart, in '89 voters were wary of voting Mario again with the Penguins only slightly better.

 

[HolyGhost]

I would say not a chance, not even for McDavid.

at game 30 or something he was at 56% or something silly like that

 

[The Panther]

Not counting shootout goals, I think McDavid's at 80 out of 154 now, right? So that's 52%... I think? If he just maintains that, he'll finish higher than Gretzky ever was and at 4th-most in history.

As he usually heats up in the final 25-games, I wouldn't say he's out of the 1989-Lemieux dominance talk yet.

 

[authentic]

Not counting shootout goals, I think McDavid's at 80 out of 154 now, right? So that's 52%... I think? If he just maintains that, he'll finish higher than Gretzky ever was and at 4th-most in history.

As he usually heats up in the final 25-games, I wouldn't say he's out of the 1989-Lemieux dominance talk yet.

How much stock would you personally put into these stats? Obviously it favours players on worse teams but do you think this makes Lemieux's season 1989 season
better than any of Gretzky's?

 

[MadLuke]

How much stock would you personally put into these stats? Obviously it favours players on worse teams but do you think this makes Lemieux's season 1989 season
better than any of Gretzky's?

That stats is almost pure trivia, not sure it is fair to consider a player season significantly any worst or better because of what their teams did when they were not in the ice.

It has some MVP consideration to it, but not much of an absolute good season to it.

Take the Colorado first liner, would one member of that line have scored has many point with them playing separately all year, he is having a better season but would end up with a lower % of point share on is team goal.