Can any player make the HHOF 3 times if their career was cut into thirds?

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Big Phil, Feb 5, 2011.

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  1. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    There are lots of players who would make the HHOF twice in their careers. Messier would get in from 1980-'90 and 1990-'04 for sure. Even Marcel Dionne has a good case for the 1970s and then the 1980s. Patrick Roy is a HHOFer from his Habs and then Avs career. Maybe even Joe Sakic.

    But what about 3 times? This will require a ridiculous peak combined with being blessed with good health and a long career. These are the players with that shot. You can only use it in continuous years, there's the trick.

    Gretzky: 1979-'85, 1985-1992, 1992-1999. I'm pretty sure the voters would put him in after 1985. 6 Harts and two Cups, on Canada Cup victory and 5 scoring titles. Impossible to ignore. The next group is a given too, 2 more Cups, 4 more scoring titles, 3 more Harts and two incredible Canada Cups. 1992-'99 is tougher but he'd still have:
    3 2nd team all-stars
    1 Art Ross
    1 Cup final trip and a magnificent playoff run
    Played very well in the 1996 World Cup and was in the 1998 Olympics
    Led the NHL in assists three times

    You get the feeling he'd still be tough to keep out then


    Howe: 1946-'54, 1954-'62, 1962-'71. You get the feeling he gets in there too. The man just flat out played too many seasons and was great too long. His first group is 3 of his Cups and his 4 straight scoring titles. The second group is another Cup and a scoring title and three Hart Trophies. The 3rd group has no Cups, but three final appearances and a Hart/Art Ross. All three groups pretty much always have him as a 1st or 2nd all-star. No way is he left out had his career only been any of those groups.

    Beliveau: 1953-'59, 1959-'65, 1965-'71. He'd be a hard guy to keep out as well. 18 years of playing actually hurts him a bit because that would be 6 years each. He has multiple Cup wins in each group and a Hart in the first two. The last group he captains 4 Cup championships.

    Bourque: 1979-'87, 1987-'94, 1994-'01. Good chance for him too. Played forever. He is in the first group because he'd finally win his Norris in 1987. He'd win tons of Norrises in the next group and reach two finals. He doesn't win a Norris in the last group but wins a Cup and still has two first team all-stars and two second teams. He would make for some interesting conversation for sure.

    So there are others that can have cases be built in their favour but I wasn't sure if I should add them.

    Patrick Roy - Has a case, but "only" has 18 years (6 on average) to work from. Would win a Cup in each group though.

    Bobby Hull - Has 15 years in the NHL. Forget his 1980 season, it adds nothing. Can't see him getting into the HHOF his first 5 seasons.

    Stan Mikita - Didn't do enough in the 1970s

    Nicklas Lidstrom - Didn't do enough in the 1990s and the beginning of his career

    Frank Mahovlich - Like Hull left for the WHA when he was still playing well. That hurts him, but he did have tons of Cups spread around that he was a huge part of.

    Doug Harvey - Maybe someone can build a case for him, but he was weaker at the end of his career

    Mark Messier - No way, way too weak at the end of his career
     
  2. Gobo

    Gobo Stop looking Gare

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    Only guys I can think of are Howe and Gretz.
     
  3. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Bourque too, I'd say.

    Other than that, that's it. Beliveau and Messier don't get in for their last third. Hull doesn't get in for his first third, nor does Lidstrom.

    Actually, now that I think about it, Roy does it too:

    86-91: cup, smythe, two vezinas
    92-97: two cups, smythe, vezina
    98-03: cup, smythe, vezina and hart finalist
     
  4. Moridin

    Moridin Registered User

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    Yep, you are right..

    18 seasons, 3 even parts of 6 years each, not counting this years season..

    92-97
    - 1 Stanley Cups
    - Calder runner-up & all rookie team

    98-03
    - 2 Stanley Cups
    - 6 NHL First all star team
    - 1 Conn Smythe
    - 3 Norris Trophys

    04-10
    - 1 Stanley Cup
    - 1 Olympic Gold
    - 3 NHL First all star team, 2 second all star team
    - 3 Norris Trophys


    However
    If he plays 1 more seasons after this, and pick up one more norris, then 1998 becomes a part of his first 3rd of a career, adding another cup, a norris runner up and a first team all star to that part, making him an extreme borderline candidate.
     
  5. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    I'm still impressed by Roy here. No player aside from Howe and Bourque has ever spread his accomplishments out so evenly.
     
  6. steve141

    steve141 Registered User

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    There is a clear difference though, in that Howe and Bourque were consistantly elite over their whole careers, whereas Roy mixed elite performances with average years throughout his career.

    While not peaking as high as Roy, Selanne and Sakic are two other players that come to mind if we are talking about spreading out accomplishments. Sakic had a top 3 finish in points in all thirds of his career, while Selanne was top 3 in goals in all thirds.
     
  7. steve141

    steve141 Registered User

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    Sometimes it's easy to forget the obvious. Lemieux and Orr are actually not out of the question.

    The case for Orr (657 games)
    First 250 games (1967-1970): Calder, Norris x3, Conn Smythe, Hart, Art Ross, All Star Team x4.
    Next 217 games (1971-1973): Norris x3, Hart x2, Conn Smythe, All Star Team x3.
    Last 190 games (1974-1979): Norris x2, Lindsay, Art Ross, All Star Team x2.

    He definately has the accomplishments three times over, but it would probably be hard to get in on just three years, even if they are some of the best hockey years ever.

    The case for Lemieux (915 games)

    First 292 games (1985-1988): Calder, Lindsay x2, Art Ross, Hart, All Star Team x3.
    Next 307 games (1989-1994): Lindsay, Art Ross x3, Hart, Conn Smythe x2, Masterton, All Star Team x3.
    Last 316 games (1996-2006): Lindsay, Art Ross x2, Hart, All Star Team x3.

    Again, definately has the accomplishments three times over, but not the longevity factor.
     
  8. Psycho Papa Joe

    Psycho Papa Joe Porkchop Hoser

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    I'm wondering if a case could be made for Glenn Hall as well. He had a consistently high level of play throughout his long career:

    1st third: Calder, 2 1st team all-stars, one 2nd team.
    2nd third: 3 1st teams, 2 2nd teams, Vezina, cup
    3rd third: 2 1st teams, a second team, 2 Vezinas, Conn Smythe

    From a regular season standpoint, that seems more impressive than Roy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2011
  9. quoipourquoi

    quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    I don't think it's fair to say he had "average years throughout his career." There were only three years in his entire career in which he wasn't top ten in Save Percentage at the end of the regular season, and he went on to win the Stanley Cup in two of those three, leaving just the 1995 lockout.

    9 of the 18 seasons saw him in the top five in Save Percentage. In the other nine, he won the Stanley Cup four of those times or put up at least .920 in the season/playoff/Olympics four other times, leaving again just one year in which he wasn't a champion or at the very least really good: The 1995 lockout.

    It's hard to get in on six years, but he's top two in regular season Wins in each third, and the absolute leader in playoff Wins in each third. Given the relative inconsistency of the position, there's a whole lot to be said about the way in which his career played out.
     
  10. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    No way for Orr. I mean the guy practically played only 10 seasons. Orr doesn't have a shot at the HHOF from 1974-'79, he was injured half that time.

    I did think of Lemieux, the only thing is would his first group from 1984-'89 put him in the HHOF? Not to mention his last group was a little shaky too. Like Orr, a lot of lost time
     
  11. pluppe

    pluppe Registered User

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    I don´t think Bourque has a chance.

    I base this on the assumption that we don´t include his 93-94 season since the OP seems to say 87-94 and 94-01.

    from 94/95 - 00/01

    512 games
    391 points

    2 1st all star
    2 2nd all star
    1 cup

    playoffs
    62 games
    44 points

    I say no way.

    (compare this to Mark Howe for fun, I know he should be in but this is not close)

    if we were to include his 93/94 season it´s another story since that means a Norris but thats another debate.
     
  12. steve141

    steve141 Registered User

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    So what you are saying is that if a defenceman came in to the league next year and played five injury-filled seasons while picking up two Norrises, one Lindsay and one Art Ross (as a defenceman!), he would have no shot at the HHOF? How many other players have done that?

    If you are right, people are really putting too much emphasis on longevity over quality in their HHOF votes.

    How many players can you name with a Calder, two Lindsays, an Art Ross and a Hart that are not in the HHOF?

    And calling one Lindsay, two Art Rosses, and a Hart "a little shaky" is just rediculous. I bet Cam Neely and Dino Ciccarelli would have loved having some "shaky" seasons like that before getting inducted to the HHOF.
     
  13. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Thank you for beating me to it... Roy's one "average" season was 1995.

    A four-time all-star gets in, in my books.
     
  14. Derick*

    Derick* Guest

    Do you have to slice their career into even thirds or can you start a new section as soon as their achievements are equal a HHOF resume? Because in the second case I can imagine Gretzky getting in 4 or 5 times.
     
  15. canucks4ever

    canucks4ever Registered User

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    In 1974 and 1975, orr produced seasons better thany any defencemen in the history of the league.
     
  16. Dark Shadows

    Dark Shadows Registered User

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    Agreed
    Hmmm. It would be close for Bourque.
    94-95, 3rd in Norris voting
    95-96, Runner up for the Norris NORRIS: Chris Chelios 408 (22-19-9-3-1); Ray Bourque 403 (23-16-8-7-0)
    Almost could consider that worth a Norris.
    96-97, misses 20 games, and the Bruins miss the playoffs for the first time in his career there. Still comes 8th for the Norris.
    97-98, 8th for the Norris
    98-99, 3rd for the Norris
    99-00, 7th for the Norris
    00-01, Runner up for the Norris.

    Playoffs in this time period would likely be the factor in keeping him out(Since the bruins missed them often and were horrible when they made it).
     
  17. steve141

    steve141 Registered User

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    Well, by average I obviously didn't mean average compared to AHL replacements, but compared to the other elite performers we were talking about - Howe and Bourque. Roy is possibly the best goalie ever, but had years that were off-years compared to his standards. While he always stepped up his game in the playoffs, he never won a Vezina after he turned 26.

    As to the original question, Jacques Plante is another goalie who I would say is close to a three time HHOF member.
     
  18. steve141

    steve141 Registered User

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    Roy didn't win a Vezina during the last third. I'm not sure a Conn Smythe alone qualifies for the HHOF. Unless you think Cam Ward qualifies too?
     
  19. quoipourquoi

    quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    He meant Vezina and Hart Finalist. And it isn't just a Conn Smythe; he had 55 playoff Wins, good for 15th All-Time. In the regular season, not only is there the 2001-02 season, but 202 Wins, good for 67th All-Time. He pretty much had Gerry Cheevers' entire NHL career within 1997-98 to 2002-03.

    Patrick Roy: 202-110-57; 55-39; 1st Team All-Star; Conn Smythe
    Gerry Cheevers: 230-102-74; 53-34
     
  20. andreydali19

    andreydali19 They're relentless

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    Makes me wonder how early Howe could've pulled the first in a "Clapton" trilogy of eligibility periods after his '50 injury had the worst case scenario come to be. Methinks his induction wouldn't have been earlier than the early to mid 60s, perhaps based on alleged arguments of feeding off of Lindsay or Abel. Just thinking along the lines of alt history.
     
  21. nik jr

    nik jr Registered User

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    i think orr would get inducted 3 times.


    i read in old newspapers recently about a poll of greatest player of the 1960s, which was made late in 1969 or early in 1970, so orr had not yet won the art ross.

    bobby hull won by a very large margin, howe was 2nd by a very large margin, but bobby orr was 3rd.

    hull: 436.5
    howe: 145.5
    orr: 19
    mikita: 7
    plante: 2
    beliveau: 2
    esposito: 2
    worsley: 1
    geoffrion: 1

    1 voter put both hull and howe on his ballot, resulting in .5 for each.
     
  22. MXD

    MXD Original #4

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    Another that wouldn't be completely unthinkable would be Newsy Lalonde. A stretch to make it with the 1906-1911 period, but NHA and NHL... he has a shot.
     
  23. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    I was thinking 1974-'79. In other words, that group starts off at the 1974-'75 season. That means he has one full NHL season to his credit. Then he's injured and plays 7 games great in the 1976 Canada Cup tournament. In total Orr would have 3 playoff games to his name. With a career like that I think he'd be more likely to be remembered as a "what if" kind of guy or even a flash in the pan. Try to think along the lines if we only saw Orr in that time frame, not what we actually saw through his whole career.

    I agree that longevity can be overrated, but we aren't talking about 10 seasons either like Mike Bossy, these are injury riddled seasons at the end of his career. Orr would probably fall into the "what if" category in that group. You can take 5 years from his prime and put him in the HHOF but I wouldn't use those years at the twilight of his career.

    We've seen this before. Guys like Theodore, Carey, etc. putting up monster seasons and looking surely like future HHOFers only to come down to earth or.............retire. Yes I know Orr in 1975 was better than both of them, but you get my point, with a body of work that small it would be hard to reward him when you'd barely get to see what he could do as an encore.

    I certainly could be wrong. But I am trying to take myself back to 1989. Mario had all of 11 playoff games under his belt. He had 12 goals in that time, and the stellar play in the 1987 Canada Cup, but you barely got a glimpse of what he could do in "big" games. Ignore everything post 1989 about him for a second. If it were me, I'd have a hard time keeping him out since he really skyrocketed in 1988 and 1989, but there is little doubt there would be critics wanting to keep him out at that time, you can't deny that. And I guarantee the lack of leading a team anywhere important would come up. Heck, we see that with Thornton right now and he's played 14 years.
     
  24. pluppe

    pluppe Registered User

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    I don´t agree. his career these years would not be legendary in any way. 512 games is not enough. Can Neely is a very debated inductee. and he has several things going for him. 200 more games. 50 in 50. 2 legendary playoffs. shaping of a role.

    he would have a nice all star record and a cup but that´s it. and the cup for him would not be what it was. just an ordinary cup win as an important but not most important piece.

    there might be a debate based on all stars but the peak would still be too low for me.
     
  25. matnor

    matnor Registered User

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    I have a hard time believing Gretzky would get in for what he did 92-93 to 98-99. Just to compare him with Lindros for those years:

    Lindros 431 263 337 600 +177
    Gretzky 488 145 449 594 -74

    Lindros had more points in less games and played a much better all-around game. He also has two more ppg seasons not included in this time frame and it still hasn't got him into the HOF (though it should). Or, compare Gretzky with Oates for the same time period:

    Oates 500 166 445 611 +30

    And Oates played an additional 800 games that haven't been good enough for the induction committee. So, since none of his seasons were really out of this world in that time frame I don't think he would be inducted based on those years.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2011

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