Speculation: Can a deal be made for Jacob Trouba?

[Hen Kolland]

That sums up my point though. You don't have to be great offensively as a defenseman to put up points playing on Winnipeg with the firepower they have. If we're giving up premium assets (1st round pick+) AND paying someone 8M/year for 8 years or whatever, they should be independently great offensively - not someone who's offensive production on the PP can be replicated/surpassed by Neal friggin Pionk.

Trouba is not anything special offensively and is good but not elite defensively IMO, but is being paid like he is elite or near elite offensively.

By way of inflation and % of cap rates, go look at other defensemen in the league and realize that he’s not paid all that ridiculously.

Jacob Trouba Comparables Results - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

 

[obey86]

By way of inflation and % of cap rates, go look at other defensemen in the league and realize that he’s not paid all that ridiculously.

Jacob Trouba Comparables Results - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

He has a top 5 cap hit among all defenseman in the league. He's being paid elite money for his position.

I'm sure the cap hit will look a bit better in a few years when other players get inflated contracts due to the salary cap increase, but that doesn't make his current cap hit comparable to his ability.

 

[Hen Kolland]

He has a top 5 cap hit among all defenseman in the league. He's being paid elite money for his position.

Ah yes. Just as I thought, you don’t understand how contract valuation actually works. Carry on

 

[Hen Kolland]

He has a top 5 cap hit among all defenseman in the league. He's being paid elite money for his position.

I'm sure the cap hit will look a bit better in a few years when other players get inflated contracts due to the salary cap increase, but that doesn't make his current cap hit comparable to his ability.

I noticed you tacked on something else.

Compare contracts by removing cap hit from the equation. Look at the % of the salary cap his contract makes up. Compare that with other players around the league.

This is the Matt Stafford deserving to be the highest paid QB debate. If salaries are inflating, whoever signs the most recent deal is going to be the highest paid QB, until the next one. That’s just how the market works. Same way that Stafford was until Luck was until Rodgers was until Mahomes will be and so on.

If you look at Trouba’s contract, he was signed for under 10% of the team’s cap. That’s not uncommon for a first pairing defenseman. I gave you the tools you need to look into it.

 

[obey86]

Ah yes. Just as I thought, you don’t understand how contract valuation actually works. Carry on

I understand exactly how it works. That doesn't make his CURRENT cap hit comparable to his ability given the CURRENT salary cap, relative to the CURRENT cap hits of other players.

You're talking about how contract negotiations work. Player A and player B are the same caliber of player so player A should get 8% of the 2015 salary cap if he signs in 2015 just like player B should get 8% of the 2019 salary cap if he signs in 2019. Yeah, i'm not dumb, I get it.

I'm talking about a player's current cap hit relative to other cap hits among the league in the here and now. He is currently taking up the 5th most cap space among all defenders in the league. Other similar players having signed their contracts in previous years when the cap was lower doesn't change the CURRENT cap% vs. CURRENT on ice production comparison. Given that comparison, he is currently overpaid. As I previously mentioned, that could/will likely change in coming years IF the cap increases and his play doesn't decline.

Two entirely different concepts.

 

[Hen Kolland]

I understand exactly how it works. That doesn't make his CURRENT cap hit comparable to his ability given the CURRENT salary cap, relative to the CURRENT cap hits of other players.

You're talking about how contract negotiations work. Player A and player B are the same caliber of player so player A should get 8% of the 2015 salary cap if he signs in 2015 just like player B should get 8% of the 2019 salary cap if he signs in 2019.

I'm talking about a player's current cap hit relative to other cap hits among the league in the here and now. He is currently taking up the 5th most cap space among all defenders in the league. Other similar players having signed their contracts in previous years when the cap was lower doesn't change the CURRENT cap% vs. CURRENT on ice production comparison.

Two entirely different concepts.

You’re comparing Trouba’s contract to players who signed their contracts before he was even able to negotiate his first RFA deal in some instances. That’s why your chosen concept is completely broken.

Here’s an example.

Pietrangelo signed for 10.11% of his team’s cap in 2013. The salary cap was about $64 million. Trouba signed for 9.82% in a year that the salary cap was $81.5. So over 6 years, the cap inflated almost $20 million, but it’s Trouba’s fault that he gets paid $1.5 million more?

God I hope your employer treats you like shit and pays you the salary that they paid the person who did your job 10 years ago. I’m sure your lips will be zipped tight and you won’t complain at all.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

God I hope your employer treats you like **** and pays you the salary that they paid the person who did your job 10 years ago. I’m sure your lips will be zipped tight and you won’t complain at all.

That's what you hope? Just because the guy doesn't agree with you on a hockey board? Just stop man that's not necessary....

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Weird how when you take Trouba out of the Winnipeg offense and he isn't having a career year he isn't a 50 point defenseman anymore (on pace for 36 points), and when you put Neal Pionk into the Winnipeg offense, he is a 50 point defenseman (or at least playing at that pace thus far with 36 points in 56 games).

Bullet dodged by the Red Wings, not giving up assets and paying this guy 8M/year.

But wait.... "HE'S FROM MICHIGAN!!!!!"

 

[Hen Kolland]

That's what you hope? Just because the guy doesn't agree with you on a hockey board? Just stop man that's not necessary....

It’s illustrating a point, and not everything needs to be taken literally.

I don’t know who he is, nor do I care who he is. I don’t care about his employment or his life outside of this forum. I’m sure he’s a nice guy, and smart enough to not allow his employer to step all over him.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

It’s illustrating a point, and not everything needs to be taken literally.

I don’t know who he is, nor do I care who he is. I don’t care about his employment or his life outside of this forum. I’m sure he’s a nice guy, and smart enough to not allow his employer to step all over him.

Why is your go-to-tactic to use vitriol when someone doesn't agree with you?

 

[Hen Kolland]

Why is your go-to-tactic to use vitriol when someone doesn't agree with you?

It’s not. Why don’t you send me a PM if you want to air out your problems with me.

 

[Retire91]

This is one of the main reasons I don't want UFA on the team right now. I have no doubt Trouba helps this team in a big way, but to what end. We finish 4th from last instead of last? And then we are locked into 8 million cap for 7 years. What about when our lottery picks all need to be signed. I would rather grow organically during the draft than overpay.

I hope that is clear I am not arguing against getting better or that Trouba would make us immediately better, just that I am glad we dodged 8 million 7 year cap hit when we are not even going to be good for another 3-4 years and don't know who in our core is going to hit and who isn't. Then when your core solidifies you are handcuffed by an all-star cap hit.

Let's get good through the draft then look at UFA to fill any gaps.

 

[Winger98]

This is one of the main reasons I don't want UFA on the team right now. I have no doubt Trouba helps this team in a big way, but to what end. We finish 4th from last instead of last? And then we are locked into 8 million cap for 7 years. What about when our lottery picks all need to be signed. I would rather grow organically during the draft than overpay.

I hope that is clear I am not arguing against getting better or that Trouba would make us immediately better, just that I am glad we dodged 8 million 7 year cap hit when we are not even going to be good for another 3-4 years and don't know who in our core is going to hit and who isn't. Then when your core solidifies you are handcuffed by an all-star cap hit.

Let's get good through the draft then look at UFA to fill any gaps.

I don't think Trouba is signed for what he does for us right now. the guy is 25. Krug is 28. These guys should be pretty darn good players for another 7 years. And about halfway through that the Wings should be looking like a pretty darn good team. Especially if they have been able to pre-patch some of those holes with guys like Trouba or Krug.

You fit the lotto picks in by being judicious with your other signings. This offseason we have Bert, AA, Mantha, and Fabbri looking for new deals. It's probably the best opportunity the Wings will have for locking these guys in on reasonable numbers for the bulk of the rest of their high end years. And if some new guys come up through the system and out play them, great, they become trade ammo.

I think the key becomes the Wings being aggressive and not allowing the cap to come to them, so to speak. That said, I'm not really expecting a big signing this summer and for next year to be pretty similar to this year. Hopefully not quite as awful, though.

 

[vladdy16]

You’re comparing Trouba’s contract to players who signed their contracts before he was even able to negotiate his first RFA deal in some instances. That’s why your chosen concept is completely broken.

Here’s an example.

Pietrangelo signed for 10.11% of his team’s cap in 2013. The salary cap was about $64 million. Trouba signed for 9.82% in a year that the salary cap was $81.5. So over 6 years, the cap inflated almost $20 million, but it’s Trouba’s fault that he gets paid $1.5 million more?

God I hope your employer treats you like **** and pays you the salary that they paid the person who did your job 10 years ago. I’m sure your lips will be zipped tight and you won’t complain at all.

You're comparing Trouba to Pietrangelo as a way to illustrate the he isn't overrated/overvalued?

Seems like your argument has spun out at that point.

 

[izlez]

We're celebrating that we don't have Trouba and his contract wehen we are icing a defense of Bowey, Daley, Biega, Cholowski, Mcilrath, and Ericsson?

WOOO CAP SPAAACE!!!

 

[Hen Kolland]

You're comparing Trouba to Pietrangelo as a way to illustrate the he isn't overrated/overvalued?

Seems like your argument has spun out at that point.

Pietrangelo signed his deal at the age of 24. His stat line was: 224 games, 29 goals, 121 points (0.54 ppg) while averaging around 23 minutes a night. With a high water mark of 51 points in 81.
Trouba signed his deal at the age of 25. His stat line was: 408 games, 42 goals, 179 points (0.44 ppg) while averaging around 23 minutes a night. With a high water mark of 50 points in 82.

Pietrangelo signed for 10.11% compared to Trouba's 9.82%. If Pietrangelo had the same salary cap to work with when his deal was signed, he would have signed for $8.24 million. Pietrangelo also slid his first two years, had a smaller resume built, and had only accrued 3 seasons. Meaning he had 4 years of RFA status and 3 years of UFA status consumed on his current deal. Compared to Trouba's deal that was signed with close two twice the track record in length and 6 accrued seasons; his deal consumed only 1 year of RFA status and 6 years of UFA status.

In some capacity we are comparing apples to oranges because Pietrangelo was signing a long-term RFA extension whereas Trouba was essentially negotiating a UFA contract. But my point remains the same, Trouba still signed for lesser percentage of the cap than Pietrangelo did at a similar age, with a longer track record, with more UFA years being purchased. That makes a contract comparison reasonable, and the comparison that is made is one that actually supports the contract that he signed.

All the bitching about Trouba, but I bet most of the people complaining would have loved to sign Thomas Chabot to the exact same cap hit and one extra year of term...

 

[Bench]

This team is worse off today and in the future without Trouba. Full stop.

We'll be lucky to find another defender as good as him for the same price. And how Wings fans don't know that yet, despite looking at this blueline for the last decade, is beyond me. These guys are hard to find. Especially under 25, geez.

 

[Hammettf2b]

I don't get the whole "we got away with not signing this guy" mentality. Trouba would have been a great addition for the rebuild. He's not good enough to completely turn this team around (we still draft in the top 5) and hes still good and young enough to where he helps with the rebuild.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Too be honest

I think alot of the appeal of Trouba by alot of Michigan residents on this board was that he too is from our state and that had enormous influence over how they viewed and continue to view him.

He isnt or wasn't ever as good as alot of fans wanted to believe

 

[Hen Kolland]

Too be honest

I think alot of the appeal of Trouba by alot of Michigan residents on this board was that he too is from our state and that had enormous influence over how they viewed and continue to view him.

He isnt or wasn't ever as good as alot of fans wanted to believe

He is a first pairing defenseman in the NHL without a shadow of a doubt. That's something that doesn't presently exist in this franchise.

 

[Bench]

Too be honest

I think alot of the appeal of Trouba by alot of Michigan residents on this board was that he too is from our state and that had enormous influence over how they viewed and continue to view him.

He isnt or wasn't ever as good as alot of fans wanted to believe

Well...

He's a 25-year-old defender who isn't afraid to play physical and leads all Rangers in ice time by 2 minutes a game. He leads the team in short handed minutes. He's a fixture on the 2nd PP unit.

He's the backbone of their defender corps, a much stronger group than ours, and we're sitting here calling him overrated.

I mean, sure. If that makes us feel better.

 

[Frk It]

This team is worse off today and in the future without Trouba. Full stop.

We'll be lucky to find another defender as good as him for the same price. And how Wings fans don't know that yet, despite looking at this blueline for the last decade, is beyond me. These guys are hard to find. Especially under 25, geez.

It’s kind of funny. I understood being “that fan base” that would turn their nose up at stuff like this when we had the playoff streak and were contenders for so long.

But with where we are now? I mean shoot. Are we really gonna say thank god we’re not paying Trouba 8 mil while we have much worse contracts, a trash defense, and a bunch of $ freeing up soon.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

No. Not a Clapton Fan

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Well...

He's a 25-year-old defender who isn't afraid to play physical and leads all Rangers in ice time by 2 minutes a game. He leads the team in short handed minutes. He's a fixture on the 2nd PP unit.

He's the backbone of their defender corps, a much stronger group than ours, and we're sitting here calling him overrated.

I mean, sure. If that makes us feel better.

I said, the fact he is from Michigsn clouded some peoples judgement of the mans true abilities.

I did not in the summer and i do not now believe he is a perennial 50plus pt elite 8million a season dman.

That does not mean he isnt good, he just isnt as good as some wanted to believe

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

He is a first pairing defenseman in the NHL without a shadow of a doubt. That's something that doesn't presently exist in this franchise.

You're right

And 3 years ago we didnt have a top line centre but I wasnt arguing we should trade the farm for kyle turris(who was playing like it) and pay him 8 million a season...