Calling Out Matt Barzal

[periferal]

Al Arbour and Bill Torrey wouldn't have gotten through the 1970’s with the patience of some of the jokesters here.

Sure they would have because Torrey would have, and did, draft better than snow. And with all those top 10 picks snow blew if Torrey had them since 2008 I guarantee this team would be a legit Cup contender right now.

 

[Islanders4Cups]

This seems to be getting out of hand. A lot of frustrated Islander fans on these threads. I feel like a broken record but I'll say it again. The NY Islanders have been lacking goal scoring talent since Lou took over. It's his responsibility to find players that address the team's need. He hasn't hit a HR since brining in Trotz and that's more of a no brainer. Perhaps his best move was to get Lehner and Varlomov and retain Nelson.

Please add:

... since Lou took over 1.7 seasons ago after one of the worst seasons in 30+ years with a roster built by no other than Garth Snow. Again, do tell how you would have turned this ship around and gotten the results Lou has gotten thus far.

would you have fired Bill Torrey and Al Arbour in 1978? 1979?

 

[Islanders4Cups]

Sure they would have because Torrey would have, and did, draft better than snow. And with all those top 10 picks snow blew if Torrey had them since 2008 I guarantee this team would be a legit Cup contender right now.

Please give Lou the benefit of 4-5 seasons if Torrey was given 6+ seasons even after losing to the Leafs and Rangers with the talent he acquired. It takes time. I understand 10 seasons is too long but please maybe 3?

 

[Newsworthy]

Please give Lou the benefit of 4-5 seasons if Torrey was given 6+ seasons even after losing to the Leafs and Rangers with the talent he acquired. It takes time. I understand 10 seasons is too long but please maybe 3?

Lou is no Bill Torrey.
Torrey took over an expansion team and built a Dynasty in such a short time it's unprecedented.
In two years Torrey started to build a solid core including Nystrom and Westfall and acquired a HOF goalie in Billy Smith before the team ever stepped on the ice.
Potvin next year first overall followed by Gillies and Trottier than Bossy. No way is Lou on that tragectory.
Torrey pretty much hit on every first rd pick.

I love how its OK to kill Barzal and now people are turning on Trotz which I find weird but Lou is untouchable.

 

[periferal]

Please give Lou the benefit of 4-5 seasons if Torrey was given 6+ seasons even after losing to the Leafs and Rangers with the talent he acquired. It takes time. I understand 10 seasons is too long but please maybe 3?

My post had zero to do with Lou and everything to do with Snow. I'm happy to wait with Lou/Trotz in charge.

 

[PK Cronin]

Matchups my friend. Matchups.

There's a reason why Barzal was a 20-60-80 guy his rookie year...Because getting to "hide" behind Tavares he faced other teams' 2nd level defenders. Now Barzal can be a 1st line player, but he's literally the only forward that can drive the offense, so other teams take a look at playing the Isles and their primary strategy is, "Stop #13."

In addition Eberle when he was scoring 20+ goals was also used in a secondary scoring role (and mainly on Edmonton). We both know in an optimal situation (a Cup contending team) Eberle is a 2nd line winger.

Without getting him the help he needs Barzal will continue to get frustrated and is more prone to making poor decisions. Get him legit 1st line wingers and I'd bet his mistakes go down when he doesn't have to drive the play on his own vs other teams best defenders.

Matchups are part of it, buy I believe it's in Barzal's DNA to be selfish with the puck. He's done it at every level. It's engrained in him and needs to be beaten out of him, at least a bit.

 

[periferal]

Matchups are part of it, buy I believe it's in Barzal's DNA to be selfish with the puck. He's done it at every level. It's engrained in him and needs to be beaten out of him, at least a bit.

You see selfish. I see a guy using his elite skating & puck-handling to see up teammates...And because there's no other forward near his level he sometimes forces it leading to mistakes.

Because we're talking about a #1 center with 58 goals and 137 assists. How you look at the lack of offensive talent on this team and that goal/assist ratio and come up with selfish is beyond me.

 

[PK Cronin]

You see selfish. I see a guy using his elite skating & puck-handling to see up teammates...And because there's no other forward near his level he sometimes forces it leading to mistakes.

Because we're talking about a #1 center with 58 goals and 137 assists. How you look at the lack of offensive talent on this team and that goal/assist ratio and come up with selfish is beyond me.

Call it whatever you want but he makes these boneheaded plays constantly. The red arrows are indicating the safe and obvious play that he can make in each frame ending with the turnover circled in red. Instead of taking any of those routes, he decides to do the dumb play and do it all himself despite having very clear and obvious passes he could make that would maintain possession and generate more offense. There's two Islanders players in front of the net here as well looking a tip or a rebound which would've been provided if Barzal passed the puck to either defensemen at the point.

This play isn't because his teammates aren't good enough or they aren't near his level. This is because he doesn't understand that the simple play is sometimes the best play and he overthinks the game because he wants to make gorgeous highlight reel move.

I can't emphasize how bad of a decision this is. In the first frame he has two options on the point, both of which would be safe. The defender closest to him has his hips turned and he's facing where Barzal is going to go next. A soft backhand pass gives whichever defensemen is on the right point all kinds of time and room to operate with. Toews on the forehand is a simpler play. Instead, he holds and drives wide on his backhand and doesn't dish it to Toews when he has time. He then gets into trouble on the wall because two defenders come to him and he makes a panic move where he tries to pull up instead of just dumping it into the corner. Dumping it into the corner should be an automatic play for any forward who gets into trouble in the offensive zone, no matter the skill level, but Barzal seemingly never does it. Keep in mind that this is all done with a 6 on 5. That means the opposition sent not one, but two players to attack the puck carrier leaving a 5 on 3 for the rest of the ice surface and Barzal still didn't move the god damn puck. That's either selfish or plain stupid, and neither is smart hockey. You could say this is one example but the sad fact is that I could go through every game and pick out multiple clips like this over and over again. It isn't a skill issue with his teammates, it's a him issue.

 

[GrandmaSlices51631]

PK, good and fair analysis. In the example you posted, it is absolutely on him. He is not a dumb player by any means but I believe he is suffering from tunnel vision.

I'm sure the coaching staff discussed this exact play with him as it is a cut & dry example of him trying to carry the load all.by himself. I don't think this is black & white however, I do feel his line mates are not pulling their weight, I'm not even sure those are the right guys to play with him.

I'd like to see Beauvillier up there on 1LW for an extended look, my hunch is, he will hold onto the puck less when he has someone who can skate with him who does play a simpler game. Many times Barzal is looking to buy time because there is no one in prime scoring position.

 

[PK Cronin]

PK, good and fair analysis. In the example you posted, it is absolutely on him. He is not a dumb player by any means but I believe he is suffering from tunnel vision.

I'm sure the coaching staff discussed this exact play with him as it is a cut & dry example of him trying to carry the load all.by himself. I don't think this is black & white however, I do feel his line mates are not pulling their weight, I'm not even sure those are the right guys to play with him.

I'd like to see Beauvillier up there on 1LW for an extended look, my hunch is, he will hold onto the puck less when he has someone who can skate with him who does play a simpler game. Many times Barzal is looking to buy time because there is no one in prime scoring position.

Just so I'm clear, I don't think the first line's woes are all his fault but he's definitely contributing to some of it. I'm pretty sure he realized his mistake during the game because there was a whistle shortly after where he could be seen shaking his head in frustration (seemingly at himself). It's those moments that give me hope that he'll learn, but it's annoying to see the same type of thing over and over again from the most talented player on the roster.

 

[mm11]

The kid is human but If I was ambitious enough I could supply hours of video of Barzy setting up plays that we have not seen in orange blue and white for a generation.

 

[BelovedIsles]

I'm more worried about the skipper than Barzal!

Ehh, they are very fine with Trotz; that almost makes me vomit more than this thread.

As for the topic, Barz was spoiled as a 19/20 year old playing under Weight. I believe thats crept into his habits, I also believe he likes to be the 'main event.' He's still adjusting to a full 200 ft. game, and from what I've seen, he plays a lot like Datsyuk or Karlsson (VKG). He plays the full 200 ft., he grinds in the D end *at times, he pick-pockets more than you know *unless you closely watch.

He hasn't developed his skillset enough, he doesn't have finishers (as a pass-first 1c), he IS immature. He does force things, he looks quite frustrated. There is a long ways to go, but just as I thought with JT, he'll never be more than a 90 pt 1C. He has a big jump to get there, he needs finishers. With the proper line mates he'll put up 25g, 60a. If he had gifted finishing skills, he'd flirt with 100.

 

[PK Cronin]

The kid is human but If I was ambitious enough I could supply hours of video of Barzy setting up plays that we have not seen in orange blue and white for a generation.

He's the best/most unique skater I've ever seen in the NHL outside of McDavid but they are very different in how they use their skating. The goal should be to maximize his ability and minimize the risk.

Making the simple play a few times earlier in the game against Arizona sets up the opposition for later in the game, which would allow Barzal to do his thing with more success when he chooses to do it. Right now everyone knows what he's going to do so he's easier to stop. If the opposition still isn't going to give him room, cool, take players out of position and let your teammates do the work. He can get a pass for a mistake or two along the way because he's trying too hard, but he needs to show improvement or it's just going to be the same thing over and over again.

 

[mm11]

He's the best/most unique skater I've ever seen in the NHL outside of McDavid but they are very different in how they use their skating. The goal should be to maximize his ability and minimize the risk.

Making the simple play a few times earlier in the game against Arizona sets up the opposition for later in the game, which would allow Barzal to do his thing with more success when he chooses to do it. Right now everyone knows what he's going to do so he's easier to stop. If the opposition still isn't going to give him room, cool, take players out of position and let your teammates do the work. He can get a pass for a mistake or two along the way because he's trying too hard, but he needs to show improvement or it's just going to be the same thing over and over again.

That's fair. I have no doubt Barzal will find this path soon enough. That comes with maturity ofcourse.

Anyway, let's get 2 points tonight. We all could use it....

 

[ScaredStreit]

Barzal could be better...but at the end of the day he's suffering from the same problem Tavares always had here: there are no other top players in our top-six forwards. We have some good players but no real difference makers. If Lou doesn't make a move for another top-six forward we're out of the playoffs.

 

[SayItAintSoJohnny]

Stats generally tell a clearer picture...when both of your linemates are shooting well below their career norms (Lee -3.3% and Eberle -4%) and in the embarrassing low 10 % success range (Lee 10.3 and Eberle 9.4)- you tend to try and do too much. He is pressing and no doubt a quicker winger as well as a sniper would do wonders for him

 

[lorwood]

Barzal has been and continues to develop a strong two way game. The obsession with stats has really taken away from understanding the game. Sometimes getting back and preventing an icing is a critical part in a game same as a key back check or simply lifting an opponents stick taking away a scoring chance. I will take a two way Barzal over an offense only player everyday.

 

[periferal]

Let's put it this way...

Of the numerous problems the Isles have, Barzal is not in the top 10. Like any player in the world, his game could be better, but for right now, and going forward, his positives severely outweigh his negatives...And if you get him two corresponding talents on his wings, I promise some of his issues will disappear immediately.

 

[MJF]

Let's put it this way...

Of the numerous problems the Isles have, Barzal is not in the top 10. Like any player in the world, his game could be better, but for right now, and going forward, his positives severely outweigh his negatives...And if you get him two corresponding talents on his wings, I promise some of his issues will disappear immediately.

And there's loads of those talents just ready to be had.

In the meantime it would help the entire team if Barzal could dumb his game down to the talent on the roster.

 

[periferal]

And there's loads of those talents just ready to be had.

In the meantime it would help the entire team if Barzal could dumb his game down to the talent on the roster.

Well of course unfortunately the chances of trading for one 1st line winger, much less 2, is near impossible at this point. That said he snow been able to draft in the top 5 and just taken someone like Scheifele over Strome or any number of players over Dal Colle this whole team would be in better shape.

And you're seriously asking an elite player, the one forward we have who can drive offense on a team that cannot score goals right now, to stop being as explosive? We have a seriously lack of FINISHERS on this team and no matter what game Barzal plays Lou is going to have to address this offense somehow.

 

[MJF]

Well of course unfortunately the chances of trading for one 1st line winger, much less 2, is near impossible at this point. That said he snow been able to draft in the top 5 and just taken someone like Scheifele over Strome or any number of players over Dal Colle this whole team would be in better shape.

And you're seriously asking an elite player, the one forward we have who can drive offense on a team that cannot score goals right now, to stop being as explosive? We have a seriously lack of FINISHERS on this team and no matter what game Barzal plays Lou is going to have to address this offense somehow.

I’m asking an elite player to work with the talent he has next to him today.

 

[PK Cronin]

I’m asking an elite player to work with the talent he has next to him today.

You're asking a QB with a cannon for an arm to stop throwing it beyond his slow receivers. It's common sense.

 

[mm11]

Since we all here one way of the other dominated our rec league, dek hockey league, street roller hockey pick up game , frozen pond game or even possibly some college club hockey know that some teammates were not as talented as us, so we had to kind of "dumb down" our games as MJF pointed out. Barzy may just have to do this alittle more. dump it in and get the damm puck.

 

[MJF]

You're asking a QB with a cannon for an arm to stop throwing it beyond his slow receivers. It's common sense.

That's exactly what I'm asking.

 

[MJF]

Since we all here one way of the other dominated our rec league, dek hockey league, street roller hockey pick up game , frozen pond game or even possibly some college club hockey know that some teammates were not as talented as us, so we had to kind of "dumb down" our games as MJF pointed out. Barzy may just have to do this alittle more. dump it in and get the damm puck.

I realize I'm asking a thoroughbred to work as a carriage horse until we find him some better linemates, but this is what we have around him. I'd love it if Lee could take a pass in stride and break in on the goalie, I'd love it if Beauvillier didn't air mail half his shots off the glass, I'd love it if Bailey got the pass from Barzal and shot it instead of looking to pass it back. But it hasn't happened yet.