Cale Fleury or Timothy Liljegren

[Conbon]

So we're just going to literally skip how Lily was going to be in the NHL in a top 4 role real shortly after being drafted.

Nope, Leafs players get overhyped just as bad as Habs

 

[sansabri]

Nope, Leafs players get overhyped just as bad as Habs

Can't stick to the poll - gotta get everyone involved

 

[TheGoldenJet]

You cited 2017 drafted D men. The fences are changing in your arguments. Regardless, let's correct your earlier statement of 3 D men from the 2017 draft are playing in the NHL.

There are actually 7 2017 drafted D men that are playing in the NHL 8 if you include Brannstrom who played 33 games in the NHL before being sent down.

Heiskanen, Makar, Brannstrom, Valimaki(if not hurt), Jokiharju, Hague, Ferraro, and Fleury.

So while you like to point out Lilegren leads Foote and Aho by 3 pts in AHL scoring for 2017 drafted D men. Other teams already have players that are better, and no doubt would be bettering 24 points if they were in the AHL. Which is why making a big deal out of it, as you have, is silly when most of the better players are not in the AHL. It really isn't that impressive a feat for a 3rd year pro.

Your post has more holes than a round of Swiss cheese.

What goal posts am I moving? You asked why people are not that impressed with Aho the defenceman. The answer is because he is three years older than these draft year comparables we are talking about (and still behind Liljegren in scoring). Sorry if you don’t like it, but it’s the simple truth.

Again, Brannstrom is now in the AHL. Valimaki will be in the AHL, if he makes it back this season at all from his torn ACL. Neither player is currently playing in the NHL, no matter how much you want them to be.

There are only six defencemen from the 2017 draft that are currently playing in the NHL. Some of the lower picks who are there are struggling in limited roles, and have shown nothing to suggest they would be dominating the AHL this season.

There are only three 1st round D (out of 9) that are currently playing in the NHL. Only two of these players are actually putting up impressive performances, and both are top 5 picks.

There are FAR more defencemen from the 2017 draft that are currently playing in the AHL, including multiple 1st and 2nd round picks. Liljegren is leading them all in points, despite missing games for injuries and NHL callups. This is a pretty impressive performance, all things considered. If you aren’t impressed, either you have really high standards (top 5 pick high), or you are biased against the prospect/team. In your case, I think it’s obvious which category you fall under.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

How about the example I used about Call Foote who was another defenseman selected 14th overall by Tampa Bay, just three picks before Liljegren and so far Tampa Bay has not called him up to the NHL.

Good point. Foote is a good prospect and doing well in the AHL, though not as well as Liljegren this year. Foote hasn’t been called up yet. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t take him over Fleury/Ferraro level guys.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Your post has more holes than a round of Swiss cheese.

What goal posts am I moving? You asked why people are not that impressed with Aho the defenceman. The answer is because he is three years older than these draft year comparables we are talking about (and still behind Liljegren in scoring). Sorry if you don’t like it, but it’s the simple truth.

Again, Brannstrom is now in the AHL. Valimaki will be in the AHL, if he makes it back this season at all from his torn ACL. Neither player is currently playing in the NHL, no matter how much you want them to be.

There are only six defencemen from the 2017 draft that are currently playing in the NHL. Some of the lower picks who are there are struggling in limited roles, and have shown nothing to suggest they would be dominating the AHL this season.

There are only three 1st round D (out of 9) that are currently playing in the NHL. Only two of these players are actually putting up impressive performances, and both are top 5 picks.

There are FAR more defencemen from the 2017 draft that are currently playing in the AHL, including multiple 1st and 2nd round picks. Liljegren is leading them all in points, despite missing games for injuries and NHL callups. This is a pretty impressive performance, all things considered. If you aren’t impressed, either you have really high standards (top 5 pick high), or you are biased against the prospect/team. In your case, I think it’s obvious which category you fall under.

We will agree to disagree. I don’t see what is impressive for a 3rd year pro in the ahl with 24 pts. Bouchard in his rookie year in the ahl has 23. When you are in your 3rd ahl season as a former 1st rd pick, making the nhl is more impressive. The fact despite all of the leafs injuries this year that lilegren finally got his first limited 10:40 mins at the all star break tells me all one needs to know how the leafs view him.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Good point. Foote is a good prospect and doing well in the AHL, though not as well as Liljegren this year. Foote hasn’t been called up yet. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t take him over Fleury/Ferraro level guys.

I remember going into the 2017 draft Foote is who I hoped the Leafs would have selected in the 1st round. However the closer it got to their selection and Liljegren was still available my choice changed to him.

 

[LeafsNation75]

The fact despite all of the leafs injuries this year that lilegren finally got his first limited 10:40 mins at the all star break tells me all one needs to know how the leafs view him.

The Leafs were also playing with 7 defeseman when Liljegren made his NHL debut so what's wrong with limiting his minutes? The way you phrase that it's like you expected the world out of a defeseman in his 1st NHL game.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

We will agree to disagree. I don’t see what is impressive for a 3rd year pro in the ahl with 24 pts. Bouchard in his rookie year in the ahl has 23. When you are in your 3rd ahl season as a former 1st rd pick, making the nhl is more impressive. The fact despite all of the leafs injuries this year that lilegren finally got his first limited 10:40 mins at the all star break tells me all one needs to know how the leafs view him.

Interesting change of tactics to use “third year pro” to downgrade his accomplishments. The fact that Liljegren played pro at a younger age, rather than stagnating in juniors until age 20, is a good thing for both his development and his status as a prospect, rather than a knock against him. Not to mention his main AHL competition in 2017 1st rounders like Cal Foote (who has actually played more career regular season AHL games than Liljegren already) and Vaakanainen (Finnish elite league since age 16) were both experienced pros before this current season even began.

“All those injuries” for the Leafs are left sided defencemen (or forwards). The right side of the Leafs D has been fully healthy. Liljegren being a RD doesn’t really play the left side himself. Bob McKenzie has said if it was RD going down, Liljegren would have been called up sooner.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Interesting change of tactics to use “third year pro” to downgrade his accomplishments. The fact that Liljegren played pro at a younger age, rather than stagnating in juniors until age 20, is a good thing for both his development and his status as a prospect, rather than a knock against him. Not to mention his main AHL competition in 2017 1st rounders like Cal Foote (who has actually played more career regular season AHL games than Liljegren already) and Vaakanainen (Finnish elite league since age 16) were both experienced pros before this current season even began.

“All those injuries” for the Leafs are left sided defencemen (or forwards). The right side of the Leafs D has been fully healthy. Liljegren being a RD doesn’t really play the left side himself. Bob McKenzie has said if it was RD going down, Liljegren would have been called up sooner.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in Liljegren 2nd year with the Marlies didn't he get some injury and who knows how much that sent him back from being called up even sooner?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Interesting change of tactics to use “third year pro” to downgrade his accomplishments. The fact that Liljegren played pro at a younger age, rather than stagnating in juniors until age 20, is a good thing for both his development and his status as a prospect, rather than a knock against him. Not to mention his main AHL competition in 2017 1st rounders like Cal Foote (who has actually played more career regular season AHL games than Liljegren already) and Vaakanainen (Finnish elite league since age 16) were both experienced pros before this current season even began.

“All those injuries” for the Leafs are left sided defencemen (or forwards). The right side of the Leafs D has been fully healthy. Liljegren being a RD doesn’t really play the left side himself. Bob McKenzie has said if it was RD going down, Liljegren would have been called up sooner.

I would say 3 years of AHL outweigh the age factor. Lilegren had only 17 and 18 pts on stacked his first 2 seasona, and on well financially resourced ahl teams other ahl teams would not have. This is why I pointed out what Bouchard is doing as more impressive given he is in his first ahl season the fact is most of the top prospects don’t linger in ahl too long. Most teams promote them earlier when they are ready. As sandin has.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

I would say 3 years of AHL outweigh the age factor. Lilegren had only 17 and 18 pts on stacked his first 2 seasona, and on well financially resourced ahl teams other ahl teams would not have. This is why I pointed out what Bouchard is doing as more impressive given he is in his first ahl season the fact is most of the top prospects don’t linger in ahl too long. Most teams promote them earlier when they are ready. As sandin has.

Now you’re talking about Bouchard, a top 10 pick who is what, 5 months younger than Liljegren? And not a 2017 drafted defenceman. Talk about moving goalposts.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

I don’t see what is impressive for a 3rd year pro in the ahl with 24 pts.

Of course you don't.

He's 20 years old. You've reached a new low. Impressive.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Now you’re talking about Bouchard, a top 10 pick who is what, 5 months younger than Liljegren? And not a 2017 drafted defenceman. Talk about moving goalposts.

Correction. Bouchard is 6 months younger than Lilegren, not 5. What Bouchard is doing is more impressive because it's his first AHL season from playing in the OHL. Not his 3rd. You can't deny this. Lilegren had only 17 points in his first AHL season, 15 last year in his second season. Bouchard already has 23 points thus far in his first year. If you are going to cite the points argument, then he is far more impressive would you not agree? The point I am making is it is Lilegren's 3rd AHL season, he has had the benefit of playing in the AHL, which is a better developmental league than the OHL, WHL, or Q. He is in a better position to be NHL ready. And he only got called up as a 7th D man at the allstar break in his 3rd pro year.

So while I am not saying he is a bad prospect, it does indicate where the Leafs view him as a player and why scouts cooled on him. As we already covered how many 2017 D men are helping their NHL teams now. Maybe the scouts were right. Lilegren despite vast injuries to the Leafs D is still playing in the AHL. Now development is certainly not the same for every player. But given he has 153 AHL games under his belt(reg and playoffs) you would think he should be getting better every year and be NHL ready sooner than later.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Now development is certainly not the same for every player. But given he has 153 AHL games under his belt(reg and playoffs) you would think he should be getting better every year and be NHL ready sooner than later.

This right here proves you have zero clue as to what you're talking about. Not sure why I'm even surprised at this point, as it appears to have become a habit for you now.

Liljegren is doing exactly as stated above. He's getting better every year, and is currently ready for NHL duty.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Correction. Bouchard is 6 months younger than Lilegren, not 5.

Correction. Five and a half months. Not 6.

Did that post sound like I was being precise? What was that, your “you forgot Poland” moment?

 

[TheGoldenJet]

@The Winter Soldier
Again, the fact that you dragged Bouchard, a different top 10 pick from a different draft, into this conversation out of left field tells me you are grasping at straws. I guess it’s good that Liljegren is getting compared to top 10 picks though.

Wouldn’t you admit, being in your “third pro year” at age 20 is better than “being in your third pro year” at age 22, no? Why do I feel like I’m talking to a wall?

As to the rest of your drivel, this post about sums up my thoughts:

This right here proves you have zero clue as to what you're talking about. Not sure why I'm even surprised at this point, as it appears to have become a habit for you now.

Liljegren is doing exactly as stated above. He's getting better every year, and is currently ready for NHL duty.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Correction. Five and a half months. Not 6.

Did that post sound like I was being precise? What was that, your “you forgot Poland” moment?

Not really. April 30 to Oct 20 is 6 months. Well 174 days. But based on your posts being exaggerating as when you posted the other night lilegren played 11mins of ice when he played 10:40. I just thought I would correct you on that habit.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

@The Winter Soldier
Again, the fact that you dragged Bouchard, a different top 10 pick from a different draft, into this conversation out of left field tells me you are grasping at straws. I guess it’s good that Liljegren is getting compared to top 10 picks though.

Wouldn’t you admit, being in your “third pro year” at age 20 is better than “being in your third pro year” at age 22, no? Why do I feel like I’m talking to a wall?

As to the rest of your drivel, this post about sums up my thoughts:

No one is dragging Bouchard into this. But this is hockey discussion and you brought up Lilegren and him having 24 pts. I simply stated this was not particularly impressive to me because he is in his 3rd ahl year with 153 ahl pro games under his belt. The context here is Bouchard has also 24 pts and he is in his 1st ahl season. Now I am not saying it is insignificant that Lilegren has improved his pts totals from 17 and 15 his first 2 years. But isn’t that the expectation when you are a 3rd year pro? Also I don’t need to make insults to get my point across. If you want to keep replying to me, i would be happy to keep discussing this with you. I love a good debate. I also respect an an argument when someone has a point. But I don’t see why insults are injected in each post for people that do not agree with your opinion.

 

[hockeyguru]

Correction. Five and a half months. Not 6.

Did that post sound like I was being precise? What was that, your “you forgot Poland” moment?

what's the "you forgot poland" think you're referring to?

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

what's the "you forgot poland" think you're referring to?

Urban Dictionary: You forgot Poland

 

[Subway Schenn]

Not really. April 30 to Oct 20 is 6 months. Well 174 days. But based on your posts being exaggerating as when you posted the other night lilegren played 11mins of ice when he played 10:40. I just thought I would correct you on that habit.

Wow, you are grating.

 

[4thline]

A U21 AHL player in 2019-2020 Liljegren compares very well against any cohort you can think of.

All U21's post o5 lockout? Near the top of offensive production, very well rounded
Other U21's in the AHL this year? Near the top of offensive production, among the most well rounded
Older top prospects currently in the AHL (Clague/Bean) comparable production, comparable all around impact)

 

[Pyrophorus]

The guy who's playing in the NHL
Sadly, its Cale.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

There are 35 neutral Lilly votes.

This list of the 13 Fleury votes doesn't look all the neutral either. It's a joke that people even do this, I just don't get it.

• Le Tricolore
• Trash Man
• Kobe Armstrong
• sharks9
• ottawa
• SantaClaus
• habsterr
• TopTenPlayz
• Bouboumaster
• PuckTheNet
• A Loyal Dog
• Gravity
• Bonucci

I voted in the Habs fan section don't insult my integrity like that!

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

Interesting change of tactics to use “third year pro” to downgrade his accomplishments. The fact that Liljegren played pro at a younger age, rather than stagnating in juniors until age 20, is a good thing for both his development and his status as a prospect, rather than a knock against him. Not to mention his main AHL competition in 2017 1st rounders like Cal Foote (who has actually played more career regular season AHL games than Liljegren already) and Vaakanainen (Finnish elite league since age 16) were both experienced pros before this current season even began.

I agree with this post. As a Habs fan I'm envious of how often the Leafs get their top prospects to the AHL at an early age. I wish our team in Laval wasn't such a failure because if they were able to get our Euro prospects like Romanov and Ylonen to join early on, they would've been a lot more fun to watch