OT: Cal Ripken—Revolutionary SS or Overrated Hack? Discuss

Fantomas

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Aug 7, 2012
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He had a good fielding percentage but he couldnt get to near as many balls as any other shortstop at that time. So what if he made the play on balls that were hit right to him. He probably had less range than any other shortstop at that time.
He was probably more suited to play 3rd base. And I'm not saying 3rd basemen are hacks in the field. There are some excellent fielding 3rd basemen, they just didnt have a lot of range. Mike Schmidt was a perfect example. Schmidt was a great fielder but I would have never used him at shortstop.

Advanced stats disagree. Fielding percentage is not a stat anyone has taken seriously since the 90s, so let's not look there. Look at Ripken's dWar - he has a career 35.7 dWar and is historically great. Among the very best. Very few shortstops in baseball history can match that: Cal Ripken Jr. Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Other interesting things about Ripken:

- His second MVP season in 1991 yielded 11.5 War which is Mickey Mantle-level great. For reference Mike Trout never scored higher than 10.5

- Ripken's first MVP season yielded 8.2 War, but the season after that was even better with 10 War. These numbers are high largely because of his great defense.

- Ripken's career 95.9 fWar is higher than Derek Jeter's (who had 72.4), Barry Larkin's (70.4), and Robin Yount's (77.3).
 

Fantomas

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Belanger and (Ozzie) Smith are probably the greatest defense shortstops of all time. For reference, Belanger's career dWar is 39.5, Smith's is 44.2. Ripken is right there with them at 35.7.

Jeter, by the way, is -8.3.
 
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txpd

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Its not really a coincidence that 3 of the top 5 dWAR all times are Orioles from the Oriole way era. Belanger, Brooks Robinson and Cal Ripken.
 

maacoshark

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Ripken ranked 4th all time in defensive WAR. Where are you going to get a better fielding shortstop.

Further, its a bad thing that he can hit better than any field first short stop?
Lmao another stats guy. Stats dont tell you everything. Is there an accurate stat that tells you how many balls got past him that other shortstops would have gotten to? No there isn't.
 

maacoshark

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Come on Maaco, give yourself a double head shake....you’re just wrong. Your antiquated notions are just that....your beliefs in what should be or have been.


You heard it here first. “(Ripken) wasn’t one of the best fielding SS”.....huge eye roll...
I am not wrong. Sorry to say this but you are being so bias about Ripken that you are reminding me if Leaf fans. They are no different. Their players are the greatest ever. You have seen all the Matthews threads and the homer Leaf fans. Well you are acting no different.
I'll say the same to you. Ripken was an excellent player. Is he HOF worthy? Yes. Is he the greatest ever? Sorry but he just isn't.
 

NobodyBeatsTheWiz

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Lmao another stats guy. Stats dont tell you everything. Is there an accurate stat that tells you how many balls got past him that other shortstops would have gotten to? No there isn't.
Dude, his range was his most celebrated asset. There is an accurate stat for what you asked for. I posted it on the last page.

You've taken your stance and refuse to accept any evidence to the contrary, apparently.
 

NobodyBeatsTheWiz

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He was not one of the best fielding shortstops. Infact he had less range than any other shortstop at the time. But there are no stats to tell you that. All you guys know here are stats. Have you ever even watched him play? Get real guys.
I watched him play for a decade+. I've met the guy (he's an asshole, btw). I've gone to spring training with an Orioles' FO member. I got my finger taped up by Richie Bancells. I've been in the O's dugout pregame.
 

txpd

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Dude, his range was his most celebrated asset. There is an accurate stat for what you asked for. I posted it on the last page.

You've taken your stance and refuse to accept any evidence to the contrary, apparently.

I check of Ripken's chances, assists, put outs, and double plays compared to his contemporaries like Trammell, Larkin and Yount, who had to give up SS for the outfield, shows just how many balls he played per game.
 

txpd

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I am not wrong. Sorry to say this but you are being so bias about Ripken that you are reminding me if Leaf fans. They are no different. Their players are the greatest ever. You have seen all the Matthews threads and the homer Leaf fans. Well you are acting no different.
I'll say the same to you. Ripken was an excellent player. Is he HOF worthy? Yes. Is he the greatest ever? Sorry but he just isn't.

The all time WAR rankings have Ripken at 25 offense and 4 defense. Do you think that is reflective of his career or just more hype?
 

Hivemind

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I logged in with another browser to see who you were all arguing against (woo ignore feature!).... and whoof. Nobody is even claiming Ripken is the "greatest ever." People were retorting against the assertion that Ripken was merely "above average" and "overrated."
 

Chokingdogs

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This has been a fun read. I have no dog in this fight, I’m a Yankee fan, but as a resident of the area I got to watch Ripken play...a lot.

He was an outstanding SS, period. He was also an outstanding player, both offense and defense. Stats, fancy stats, and the eye test prove that. To try and make any case he was ordinary, average, not playing the right position, etc. is absurd.

Also, the counterpoint that his range was limited, and it was, is hollow and somewhat baseless. He didn’t need to have “range” due to the fact he was always (or trying to ) positioning himself in the optimal spot. I can’t even begin to count the amount of times he made plays where the PbP and color guys would make note of that.
 

Holtbyisms

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Childhood hero growing up. Played SS and wore #8 because of him. Once ran into him in a crabhouse in Annapolis as a early teen and he was rude to me and my mom. So ehhhh, whatever. lol
 

Hivemind

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Yeah, almost every story I've heard regarding him in person involves him being rude or dismissive. Sad to say. I think the funniest I heard is that my friend teaches his son, but my friend had zero conception of who Ripken was when he met him at parent/teacher day. Ripken apparently was shocked about this.
 

txpd

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Childhood hero growing up. Played SS and wore #8 because of him. Once ran into him in a crabhouse in Annapolis as a early teen and he was rude to me and my mom. So ehhhh, whatever. lol

I was a fairly popular morning radio person. I was on the Howard Stern Show for a year and worked on WHFS when it was popular. I know what its like to get approached by people you don't know that know you. I know what its like to get cornered in the store by a group for autographs. Some people handle that kind of thing well. Other people are really uncomfortable with it. I was always terrified for being judged by someone on a spontaneous meeting if I was caught off guard and wasn't nice. They would conclude I was a jerk and tell all their friends about it.

I had a bad first meeting with Martina McBride and thought that of her. Turns out she is a really nice person who was having a bad day with one of her kids the first time I met her.

I am the same age as Cal and knew him when I was in college. He wasn't an jerk then, but he didn't get recognized that often at the time.
 

Hivemind

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It's not really an isolated incident with these Cal Ripken stories, though. It would be one thing if it was just him having a bad day, but it's another when it's a pretty common pattern of behavior (including at events where he was expecting to be interacting with the public).
 

Holtbyisms

Matt Irwin is a legit talent
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Yeah, I don't know maybe he was having a bad day. He was seated at the table next to us and I waved at him, he asked the waiter if they could move my mom and I's table cause we were harassing him lol. I never asked him for an autograph, never spoke a word to him and waved once. We ended up being asked to move tables and he made a snarky comment to my mother about "keeping you kids under control" as we left the resturant (obviously not going to accept being moved). So basically he can **** off. :thumbu:
 

txpd

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It's not really an isolated incident with these Cal Ripken stories, though. It would be one thing if it was just him having a bad day, but it's another when it's a pretty common pattern of behavior (including at events where he was expecting to be interacting with the public).

I am just saying that its not as easy as people think. I often didn't like it and I didn't have near the level of recognition that he does.
 

CapitalsCupReality

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Yeah, almost every story I've heard regarding him in person involves him being rude or dismissive. Sad to say. I think the funniest I heard is that my friend teaches his son, but my friend had zero conception of who Ripken was when he met him at parent/teacher day. Ripken apparently was shocked about this.

The epitome of “you should never meet your hero’s”.....
 
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ThreeLeftSkates

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Nov 20, 2008
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Belanger and (Ozzie) Smith are probably the greatest defense shortstops of all time. For reference, Belanger's career dWar is 39.5, Smith's is 44.2. Ripken is right there with them at 35.7.

Jeter, by the way, is -8.3.
I remember the 4 20 game winner O's, even a kid from CT was a fan of that great team. Belanger/Brooks Robinson may have been the best SS/3B combo ever. Jeter is an extension of the shift that Ripken started. Throw as much shade his way defensively as you want, but few who watched will forget his flip to Posada from the first base line, or the dives into the stands.
The iron man chase was forced, I think it tarnishes Cal's image.
 

txpd

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His image was tarnished among a small group of baseball fans that though the whole thing was pr. The vast majority of fans around MLB don't think his career is tainted by the consecutive games. Quite to the contrary.
 
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kicksavedave

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Give your head a shake. When a player is in the batting lineup I could care less what position he is playing in the field. I dont even think about it.

The wrong is strong with this post.

A) You're not a MLB manager, but they absolutely concern themselves with this. If a player comes to a manager with a great bat but poor fielding skills, they hide him in RF, or maybe 1B if the guy is too slow to play OF. They do this in kids leagues and they do this in the majors. Bryce Harper was a catcher when the Nats drafted him, but they had to move him to the OF.
B) If you only concern yourself with half the game at any one time, you're not a very good manager. If you have two good batters who can't field, do you still not care what position they field?
C) Your statement would only make sense if you could bat 9 DH's. In the AL, good hitters who can't field anymore play DH. Good SS play SS regardless of their bat.
D) For multiple generations of baseball, SS's could barely hit a lick because the talent pool required the best fielder, regardless of bat skill, play SS.
E) Cal changed all that, permanently.
 
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